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Whistleblower calls out IT giant over U.S. jobs (the usual H1-B visa scam)
CBS News ^ | April 12, 2012 | John Miller

Posted on 04/14/2012 8:14:05 AM PDT by jiggyboy

It's called outsourcing. American firms do it because foreign labor can be cheaper.

But now, one company is being accused of bringing those lower-paid workers to the U.S. illegally and that may be costing Americans jobs.

-- snip --

Palmer says Infosys, the global high-tech giant, engaged in a systematic practice of visa fraud, a charge the company denies.

Palmer said the first thing to catch his attention was an employee that had been in the U.S. from India several times before.

"He came up to me and he was literally in tears," Palmer said. "He told me he was over here illegally and he didn't wanna be here. He was worried that he would get caught."

-- snip --

Palmer says at first, most came over on H-1B visas. These visas are for people with specialized talents or a level of technical ability that can't be found among American workers.

When asked if all the people had some special expertise that couldn't be found in the U.S., Palmer said, "Absolutely not. Not even close. Many of them is what we call freshers. People that would just come over, whoever they could get to come over. Whoever got accepted for a visa."

Many of the people brought in, in fact, didn't know what they were doing at all, Palmer said.

-- snip --

When the U.S. State Department began to limit the number of H-1B visas, Palmer says Infosys began using another type of visa, the B-1. The B-1 is meant for employees who are traveling to consult with associates, attend training or a convention. But Palmer says the employees were brought in not for meetings, but for full time jobs.

Palmer said the jobs were in "Everything from coding software to testing software to fixing software to installing."

(Excerpt) Read more at cbsnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aliens; cheaplabor; employment; h1b; immigration; india; infosys; outsourcing; whistleblower
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To: moonshinner_09
H1-B and B-1 scammers there are workers in America.We have have 300 million people living here.It all comes down to greed and therefore all that matters is paying less of living wage to H1-B and B-1 workers, than they would to Americans. This country has as much greed and corruption as what Mexico has. All they care about is money.I am very glad I will not be around in another 30 years. This country by then will be worse off than what Mexico is.Obama is already bankrupting us deeper into debt each passing day.

Agreed.

Yup, the marxists are taking us down by giving rapacious greed a 'cover story' [and other things].
51 posted on 04/14/2012 1:46:51 PM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus

The NYTimes is simply quoting US Census data.


52 posted on 04/14/2012 1:54:14 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: khelus

Oh, there are so many fourth-generation immigrants from India here!

Anyone in Silicon Valley or in tech generally knows this is very much so. And I’ve said nothing about American workers at all. My only comparisons, other than those from India having higher incomes than our general population, have been with other immigrant groups.


53 posted on 04/14/2012 1:56:46 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker

Cute you ignore invalidation of the study! Fourth generation ‘in theory’
= american not new immigrant.

Boy, Yuri certainly called it!


54 posted on 04/14/2012 2:14:20 PM PDT by khelus
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To: CORedneck

Funny how I have the same experience. And since I’m female, they lash out very harshly against me (more so than my colleagues) . Sounds like we’re in the same field (I do server side tech support).


55 posted on 04/14/2012 2:28:47 PM PDT by Txngal
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To: khelus

What the heck are you talking about?


56 posted on 04/14/2012 2:28:50 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: mrsloungitude

I find it strange that more engineering isn’t done in Latin America. I’ve had engineers there for the past decade, and they’re all quite brilliant (and in a nearby time zone also).


57 posted on 04/14/2012 4:24:33 PM PDT by The Duke
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To: Mr. Jeeves

“Excel and VBScript programming” — huh? That’s not programming.....


58 posted on 04/16/2012 4:21:39 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: khelus

India is a socialist country but hardly in the welfare class level — they don’t have enough money for that.. Medical aid is mostly private except for the dirt poor etc.


59 posted on 04/16/2012 4:22:53 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
“Excel and VBScript programming” — huh? That’s not programming.....

No, but a large number of our unemployed "IT professionals" have most of their experience in older software like VBScript or NT 4.0 systems administration or NetWare or COBOL. Even for smart people, it gets hard to keep up after age 40 without constant study outside of work hours - and employers are well aware of that. That's why the prospect of an unending supply of smart, cheap, 25-year-old Indians remains so enticing.

60 posted on 04/16/2012 7:08:01 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: Mr. Jeeves; Cronos; jiggyboy
As long as there is steady supply young English speaking Indians with some basic skills in programming (.Net, Java, Oracle), business will always find a way to utilize their skill. There is no point screaming and yelling all that nonsense....”Indians are mediocre in quality” ....”they are cheap”....”they cant speak English”....”Americans are much better”.
First of all project managers and employers hiring them don't buy such nonsense and secondly no one really needs a super intelligent programming whizkid with decades of experience (because that doesn't count in this field). Any young professional with some intermediate skill in any of the latest technology can very well get the job done. Building a software application isn't really rocket science anymore. No employer in this economy is going to pay top dollar for a software programmer when there are millions of readily available resources from overseas.
61 posted on 04/16/2012 8:29:57 AM PDT by ravager
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To: khelus

Check post #61


62 posted on 04/16/2012 8:33:17 AM PDT by ravager
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To: Mr. Jeeves; Cronos; jiggyboy; khelus
This is like a ritual that happens every 4 years during election time. Every 4 years during the run up to the election, the media and politicians rediscover their favorite whipping boy..... H-1B work visa. Every Indian knows.... come election time, it will be India bashing season again when they all start spewing venom on H1-B workers .....even though everyone knows US just cannot do without them. The industry wont let that happen. But hey India bashing makes astute politics. Who doesn't like paying overrated American grads a ridiculous $150 grands with full benefits for writing a piece of code while their jobs are protected by unions. Maybe then the IT industry might start doing as good as the automobile or the finance industry....oh nevermind.
63 posted on 04/16/2012 11:02:06 AM PDT by ravager
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To: ClearCase_guy

The age thing is changing in a lot of places, especially away from the tech hubs like the Bay. Where I’m at almost the entire engineering department is over age 40, quite a few over age 50. We value experience and wisdom over the willingness to work 100 hours a week. It’s great to be in a “mature” work environment, we almost never work OT, everybody has a life outside work, and we make our dates.


64 posted on 04/16/2012 11:06:13 AM PDT by discostu (I did it 35 minutes ago)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

COBOL is still very useful and used in quite a few places in big firms. Ditto MVS, JCL and other such mf skills


65 posted on 04/16/2012 11:19:12 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: ravager; Mr. Jeeves; jiggyboy
Any young professional with some intermediate skill in any of the latest technology can very well get the job done

You are wrong. I've worked in datawarehousing for nearly 12 years now and your statement is wrong on so many levels. "get the job done" -- you can "get the job done" in ruby on rails but the code is not extensible. You can use MSAccess and VBA but then when the requirements expand you end up with a nightmare tool that functions, but no one knows how and when it breaks down, everyone's in a manic as no one knows how it works or why it works how it does

Secondly, intermediate skills in any technology is ok for basic programming, but you need a couple of years to understand what you can do -- with a guy with 5 years experience that comes down to 3 months, but not less.

Finally, more important than coding which any code monkey can do is software engineering -- thinking logically.

Building a software application isn't really rocket science anymore. -- if you want it to last and have a good foundation for building upon, then yes it is. If you want a hack job that functions right now, but you have to toss out if you ever want to add more functionality then yeah, it's not rocket science

No employer in this economy is going to pay top dollar for a software programmer when there are millions of readily available resources from overseas. -- yes and no. For a basic programmer, yeah. For an engineer, no.

66 posted on 04/16/2012 11:25:54 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: ravager; Mr. Jeeves; jiggyboy
India bashing makes astute politics -- not really, there are not enough flks affected or who really care in the US.

Who doesn't like paying overrated American grads a ridiculous $150 grands with full benefits for writing a piece of code while their jobs are protected by unions. -- incrrect. Fresh American grads would get $40000 a year tops. Top rated engineers will get 100+ and PMs or PgMs will get 150+

67 posted on 04/16/2012 11:28:30 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos; ravager; Mr. Jeeves; jiggyboy

Cronos,

Nice description of the difference between coders and software engineers.


68 posted on 04/16/2012 12:20:27 PM PDT by khelus
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To: Cronos; Mr. Jeeves
COBOL is still very useful and used in quite a few places in big firms. Ditto MVS, JCL and other such mf skills

Cronos,
Last I heard easily 70 - 80% of data for large and intermediate companies is stored and retrieved in COBOL. In addition in my experience, successful software engineering in COBOL today requires a working knowledge of interfacing with multiple platforms including the net and hand held devices.
69 posted on 04/16/2012 12:31:00 PM PDT by khelus
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To: ravager; Mr. Jeeves; Cronos; jiggyboy
... Who doesn't like paying overrated American grads a ridiculous $150 grands with full benefits for writing a piece of code while their jobs are protected by unions. ...

ravager,
Wow .. so many errors in those few words!. Point me to that land of milk and honey were brandy new IT grads are paid $150,000 with full benefits and union protection.
70 posted on 04/16/2012 12:35:46 PM PDT by khelus
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To: Cronos
“get the job done” — you can “get the job done” in ruby on rails but the code is not extensible. You can use MSAccess and VBA but then when the requirements expand you end up with a nightmare “

You are actually arguing over tools. You can use JAVA-oracle or .NET-SQL server or whatever tools suits you but you miss the point. Datawarehousing itself isn't rocket science or brain surgery .... (unless you are still using assembly language for programming in which case you shouldn't even be in IT business anymore). In fact datawarehousing is actually FAR LESS complicated then say designing a microprocesor or a digital signal processor or for that matter any other engineering fields like automobile,construction,Machining Instrumentation or manufacturing.

Secondly, intermediate skills in any technology is ok for basic programming, but you need a couple of years to understand what you can do “

I guess we have different definitions of what constitutes intermediate level skill. With only 2 years experience you are still at entry level, not intermediate.

Finally, more important than coding which any code monkey can do is software engineering — thinking logically.”

Logical thinking isn't necessarily a niche of American grads or software engineers. Even janitors can think logically. You don't need a 4 year college degree in software programming to be able to think.

71 posted on 04/16/2012 12:38:12 PM PDT by ravager
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To: khelus; Cronos
“Who doesn't like paying overrated American grads a ridiculous $150 grands with full benefits for writing a piece of code while their jobs are protected by unions.”

I don't think either of you got my sarcastic drift. Try again.

72 posted on 04/16/2012 12:40:37 PM PDT by ravager
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To: khelus; Cronos
I used to work for a company that maintained their legacy systems in Cobol (and another proprietary legacy language). It was a nightmare. It would cost them a LOT more to just do a tiny bug fix, apply a patch, interface a closed system with systems written 4GL or open architecture. It would actually cost a lot less to rewrite the whole application in new technology. Only a bit of government regulation and a lot of sunken cost still kept the legacy systems alive.
73 posted on 04/16/2012 12:51:40 PM PDT by ravager
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To: Cronos
“India bashing makes astute politics — not really, there are not enough flks affected or who really care in the US”

Nope. They all care when it come to immigrant bashing. Haven't seen anyone who doesnt. If you have been following US politics... from Al Gore to John Kerry to Joe Biden to Obama’s famous words for Hillary Clinton “governor of Punjab”, H1-B and India bashing is a very common election theme. You may not be paying attention to it but every Indian knows it.

Who doesn't like paying overrated American grads a ridiculous $150 grands with full benefits for writing a piece of code while their jobs are protected by unions. — incrrect.”

I was being sarcastic. But hey, American grads still expect $150g only so they can pay off their expensive education debt, regardless of their actual market value.

74 posted on 04/16/2012 1:03:16 PM PDT by ravager
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To: ravager; khelus
It would actually cost a lot less to rewrite the whole application in new technology

False -- COBOL is excellent for formatting data, handling non-relational databases (and yes, non-relational hierarchical dbs are faster if you have a fixed idea what you are doing

Java is nice enough for toys, but for real power a compiled language is better -- C preferably

COBOL programmers are worth a lot, LOT more than Java or anyone else..

Mainframes handle most of the world's business information processing -- it is highly stable with clear garbage cllection unlike Java or thers. Fortran and cbol do not crash randmly or have data leaks

Nothing, abslutely nothing can beat Cobol fr batch processing. Couple it with a JCL and you've got the best way t crunch numbers and data over and over again, reliably.

Finally -- cobol can be read and understod quite easily, unlike other languages

75 posted on 04/16/2012 1:12:28 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: ravager

I’m not arguing over tools. Logic and experience make for a better tol than “get the job done” attitude.


76 posted on 04/16/2012 1:13:56 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: khelus; ravager

yes. I’ve had sme experience with Cobol and with folks who have tones of experience more than me. Experience counts...


77 posted on 04/16/2012 1:15:56 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
Well slap my behind and call me Ethyl.

I left COBOL for Foxpro, then C#.NET, a long time ago.

And you tell me I could make much more?

78 posted on 04/16/2012 1:25:41 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Shut up and drill.)
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To: mrsloungitude; ClearCase_guy; jiggyboy
Your blanket statements “but companies always want to hire people who are younger and cheaper” and “It’s definitely not a field for people over 50, and I’m not sure it’s a field for people over 40. “ are not true in my experience.

I have seen multiple examples of engineers over 50 being hired (in fact preferred) for a number of roles in my company. A smart company uses the experience and wisdom of older people and brings in fresh perspectives younger professionals.

Anyone in a technical or scientific field needs to “keep up with technology”, if they choose to stopping learning then I can’t understand how they would continue to find their career challenging or rewarding.

Agreed on all fronts.

Then you add my stellar personality, and it becomes a Must Hire Him situation.

79 posted on 04/16/2012 1:30:14 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Shut up and drill.)
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To: Cronos; khelus
Again you are arguing over tools. Here is where a manager has to think differently from a programmer. Hey Cobol is cool if you say so, there are only a few million other Java programmers who would like to disagree with you but guess what..... I DONT CARE EITHER WAYS!

For me, a Cobol programmer is hard to find and they are extremely expensive. And after only tiny bug fix I have no more use for them. You cannot build a web application or a mobile iphone/android app in Cobol. Trying to interface a new system with a legacy system is a cost, scope and time nightmare. No new application will ever be written in Cobol. Whatever could be written in Cobol has long been written. The only Cobol programmers you have today are servicing and fixing existing legacy systems not building anything new. Personally if I could, I would any day scrap all the legacy systems and build them new with any of the latest technologies.

80 posted on 04/16/2012 1:33:23 PM PDT by ravager
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To: Cronos
If I was to suggest lets build the new project in COBOL because.... “Java is for toys”....all my Lead Tech engineers and developers (even ones who have at some point actually worked on Cobol) would simply laugh at me.
81 posted on 04/16/2012 1:42:30 PM PDT by ravager
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To: Cronos
“if you have a fixed idea what you are doing”

Yeah good luck with that. I wish design requirement could be etched in stone. And good luck with refactoring data, char length, date formats.....making them talk to a java based system and trying to make them pass augments back and forth. And guess what most of the libraries handling the interfacing with the legacy systems are written in Java not Cobol. Why? Because nobody wants to tinker with the internal monolithic coding of COBOL. Thanks to the fact that no one created any documentation or generated APIs in COBOL (something you can do in Java with just one click).

COBOL you say? No thanks.

82 posted on 04/16/2012 1:56:35 PM PDT by ravager
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To: Cronos; ravager
Back after recovering from a massive data leak in Firefox [C# (not C) based].

Cronos,
Again nice description of the advantages of COBOL and C over point clicky 4GL. I love the use of the term 'garbage collection'.

83 posted on 04/16/2012 2:00:19 PM PDT by khelus
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To: Cronos; ravager
ravager,
If you read my prior posts you would have realized that I have coded in COBOL CICS [interactive/real time data processing]that interfaced both with the net and with hand held devices used by delivery men.

As Cronos pointed out in his post, no pesky data leaks such as I just have to recover from, plus speed, dependability, accuracy, and 'garbage collection'.
84 posted on 04/16/2012 2:01:53 PM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus

Read post #80 and #82


85 posted on 04/16/2012 2:07:18 PM PDT by ravager
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To: ravager; Cronos
... You are actually arguing over tools. ...

ravager,
As every good professional knows, the using the proper tools makes a huge difference in the outcome.
86 posted on 04/16/2012 2:07:23 PM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus
Yes you are a good professional I am sure, but it want an argument over tools in the first place. Scroll up further to see what the argument was about.

And dont try to convince me anymore that COBOL is a good tool. I have had my experiences.

87 posted on 04/16/2012 2:12:50 PM PDT by ravager
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To: khelus

Correction: but it WASN’T an argument over tools in the first place.


88 posted on 04/16/2012 2:14:22 PM PDT by ravager
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To: ravager; Cronos
And dont try to convince me anymore that COBOL is a good tool. I have had my experiences. ...

Well, I will no longer try to confuse you with reality. I've cc'd Cronos.

...but it want an argument over tools in the first place. Scroll up further to see what the argument was about. '

The argument started about replacing americans with guest workers and off-shoring using the tired old mantra of jobs american can't/won't do, when in reality replacing americans is all about CHEAP labor.

ciao
89 posted on 04/16/2012 2:22:28 PM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus

Software jobs today ARE CHEAP work. You are the one having a hard time coming to terms with reality.


90 posted on 04/16/2012 2:45:39 PM PDT by ravager
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To: ravager; Cronos

The reality is:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2872045/posts?page=46#46


91 posted on 04/16/2012 2:51:15 PM PDT by khelus
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To: ravager
US just cannot do without them. The industry wont let that happen.

You contradict yourself; if it were true that "US just cannot do without them" then it would be a moot point what the industry would or wouldn't "let happen." It'd be like saying, "I won't let the sun rise in the west tomorrow!"

92 posted on 04/16/2012 2:53:33 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: khelus; Cronos
By the way have fun building an MVC, SOA, ESB or cloud computing application using Cobol. And let me know how you did it. Meanwhile every wise Cobol programmer I know have long moved over to Java or .Net.

I hope you have fun with the efficient data crunching and non-GC memory management.

93 posted on 04/16/2012 3:01:18 PM PDT by ravager
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Wow you are smart arent you!

But no, nothing is contradictory. US just cannot do without them AND the industry wont let that happen. Try reading again.

94 posted on 04/16/2012 3:06:13 PM PDT by ravager
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To: moonshinner_09

It’s not greedy to want to keep your labor costs down. A business’s goal is to make their customers and investors happy, not to “provide jobs.” Customers always want lower prices and investors always want higher returns on their investment.


95 posted on 04/16/2012 3:17:41 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: moonshinner_09

If a business could find a way to produce its product without hiring any employees at all, that would be the right thing for them to do. Productivity benefits everyone in the society by producing abundance. That’s aided by lower production costs and by jobs that are not necessary being eliminated and those workers reallocating themselves to where their labor is needed.


96 posted on 04/16/2012 3:22:37 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: jiggyboy

I hope your rels aren’t listening to you because if they are, they’re screwing their kids over. BS is the only degree that pays anything!


97 posted on 04/16/2012 3:30:06 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (The only flaw is that America doesn't recognize Cyber's omniscience. -- sergeantdave)
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To: ravager; khelus
By the way have fun building an MVC, SOA, ESB or cloud computing application using Cobol.

sheesh, do you understand the concept of different tools for different functions? Cobol isn't good for the web front end, but the cloud computing would call a Cobol proc for batch processing because, as I said, nothing beats cobol for long-term, reliable batch processing. No oop can meet that level.

Your attitude is exactly the problem with "anyone can build it" -- any idiot can stuff gunpowder in a tube and build a "rocket", but to build something sustainable takes knowledge and experience.

So, again, your statement that an intermediate "programmer" can do as well as an S.E is wrong.

98 posted on 04/16/2012 11:03:42 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: ravager; khelus
as khleus said - "every good professional knows, the using the proper tools makes a huge difference in the outcome."

I wouldn't use Java for batch processing, nor cobol for a web page.

I've seen Java classes built by folks with very little experience not using the full functionality of oo and just treating it like a procedural language. Little experience, little knowledge leads to bad design, that leads to a code that may function but is not scalable.

99 posted on 04/16/2012 11:07:41 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lazamataz

yes. The opportunities are not as numerous, but when a company needs one, they pay a lot of money for an experience Cobol developer


100 posted on 04/16/2012 11:09:22 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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