Whistleblower calls out IT giant over U.S. jobs (the usual H1-B visa scam)

CBS News ^ | April 12, 2012 | John Miller

[khelus]

You contradict yourself; if it were true that "US just cannot do without them" then it would be a moot point what the industry would or wouldn't "let happen." It'd be like saying, "I won't let the sun rise in the west tomorrow!" ROFL

[khelus]

Cronos,

Once again kudos on your posts. I'll give you a personal example of the costs of poor design and lack of scalability.

While working for a company that sold health insurance, I got a call at about 3 a.m. One of a series of batch program that produced new ID cards blew up. I took a look and told the guys in production to hold off on the ID cards until I got back to them.

What could have taken no more than half an hour to fix, test, and get to production took several hours because of p*ss poor design by the cheap and inexperienced.

Note: I could have done one small quick fix to the blown up program, and ID card production would than have functioned, but the ID cards produced would not have been accurate.

Accurate ID card production required changes in about a dozen places and several hours.

In addition to the time spent fixing the ID card batch stream, I spent several more hours explaining to various managers how delaying production for several hours and producing accurate ID cards was not only cheaper but better for the companies image.

The upshot: cheap inexperienced design cost an entire days labor instead of 1/2 hour labor.

[In fact with really good design, the program would never have blown up, but that is an entirely different story].

[ravager]

Hey dont Sheesh me until you have actually worked as a tech lead or PM. Those geeky bits of advantages/disadvantages you mention for different tools is never ever a deciding factor when considering the best tool to implement a certain operation.

Most organization have a Java and/or .Net team. For a while, I had a few people for Cobol only for troubleshooting and maintenance. For the given deptartmet budget I cant have an additional Cobol team for either application development or infrastructure work only because Cobol does batch jobs very well. Every single of our batch job was run using Java, ant, xml on a CI box and they did a fine job.

A tiny advantage here and here isnt worth a huge investment in a legacy system that comes with its own share of nightmares. You would know that only if you ever worked as a manager or tech lead.

[ravager]

check post #103

[ravager]

Your point being...... You are a much better software engineer then those inexperienced and cheap developers?

Were you involved in the designing/development of that system? I assume you weren't....

But then you took one look at 3am and figured out the whole problem in a system designed by inexperienced and cheap labour?

You say.... you would have done a small fix but that would have produced inaccurate ID cards. How exactly is that a "fix"?

And what was the design problem?

[combat_boots]

“This is happening every day in every sector of high-tech, and has been for not just years but decades.”

Yes.

One-fifth to one-tenth the pay, depending on function.

Oh. PayPal’s help desk is in the Philippines. How about that.

[Cronos]

Hey dont Sheesh me until you have actually worked as a tech lead or PM

I have. I'm now a program manager. And I've worked across not only web-based apps but mainframes, erp systems, bi systems, messaging connections between these and others.

A tiny advantage here and here isnt worth a huge investment in a legacy system that comes with its own share of nightmares -- you are incorrect. And I can assure you you are very incorrect. M/fs may be considered legacy but in enterprise batch data they rule.

Don't come here as a pm for a web-page and talk about that as if all apps should conform to that level of slap and dash.

[ravager]

“M/fs may be considered legacy but in enterprise batch data they rule”

When was the last time anyone invested a large amount of money to build a Cobol based enterprise level application? First answer that and then we will decide who rules what.

Program Manager? For real? You sound like a blog or forum writer for a programming website arguing over which language is superior. Most managers have more important things to worry about.

[khelus]

ravanger,

For someone who implies that they have experience as a manager in IT, you seem to lack some very basic understanding. [the kindest way I could phrase that.] Maybe that's why you are unable to evaluate and value experience in others or understand the use of appropriate tools for different tasks.

... But then you took one look at 3am and figured out the whole problem in a system designed by inexperienced and cheap labour? ...

As an experienced SE, when I saw the type of problem that blew up the one program, I was able to make an educated guess. Reviewing the code of subsequent programs verified that.

... You say.... you would have done a small fix but that would have produced inaccurate ID cards. How exactly is that a "fix"?...

Actually I said a 'fix' to the program that blew up would allow the one program and the remainder of the ID card batch stream to function. The basic point you chose to ignore is that code that functions [i.e. does not blow up] does not necessarily produce accurate results.

And what was the design problem?

Your turn. Make an educated guess. I'll tell you if you are correct.

[ravager]

So you are a manager who sits and writes programs?

[khelus]

After reading his posts, I would posit that Cronos is a manager who understands enough about the various tools and platforms used in IT to have a solid grasp of what is involved in producing accurate, dependable, scalable code using the most appropriate tool and professional for the platform and task at hand.

[JustSayNoToNannies]

US just cannot do without them

The article's insider whistleblower reports differently - can you offer a reason to believe you over him?

[khelus]

Re:“This is happening every day in every sector of high-tech, and has been for not just years but decades.”

Yes.

One-fifth to one-tenth the pay, depending on function.

Oh. PayPal’s help desk is in the Philippines. How about that.

Com'on you two. Don't know that globalization is all about harmonization of living standards on a global scale?

Of course never mentioned is the fine print that stipulates wealth is removed from the US middles class and distributed to workers in the third world, with a hefty fee collected by international corporations. Globalism is pure unmitigated communism in a business suit.

[Cronos]

yup. I have no use for a PM who has no knowledge of programming, no logic etc. Do I do programming on a daily basis for the code? no. But I do chip in when I can and I have no intention of dissipating my logical skills. I would suggest you do the same instead of thinking that “any intermediate programmer can do just as good a job” — your kind of thinking leads to spaghetti code at best..

[Cronos]

When was the last time anyone invested a large amount of money to build a Cobol based enterprise level application?

You have an Amex blue card?

[Cronos]

Most managers have more important things to worry about.

I worry about idiots who don't have any logical thinking capability. About my projects, no. I plan those so I don't have to worry about that. And, furthermore, thanks for trying to deviate from your statement Any young professional with some intermediate skill in any of the latest technology can very well get the job done. -- that is false.

[ravager]

Its funny you began your post with a cheap shot at me but you totally skipped the question I asked you......

Were you involved in the design and development of that system?

Without any prior involvement in the design or development of that system you talk of, you were asked to jump in at 3am in the morning to fix a major issue on a production environment at the eleventh hour?.....because of your extreme experience?

And then you took an “educated guess” as to what the problem could be ......and thats exactly what it turned out to be?

And then you say that you could have done a small “fix” but that would have produced inaccurate id cards. You dont have a separate test team who can easily figure out you just did a kludge?

And now you want me to explain the design problem?

I have worked with all kinds of people for a long time in the industry. I maybe lacking in a lot of things but I am not lacking in figuring out when someone is bullshiting me.

[Cronos]

though let me also point out that i've met extremely good programmers who were from the US, India, Ireland, Russia, Romania, Poland, Italy, etc. etc. --> and I've also met extremely shitty programmers who were from the US, India, Ireland etc. etc.

In this particular case, Infosys brought in H1Bs as they need to have a certain number of bodies in the States for their clients. But as the relationship grows, they would convince their customers to move everything offshore -- it would be cheaper for the customers and cheaper for Infosys.

[khelus]

... Were you involved in the design and development of that system?

no

Without any prior involvement in the design or development of that system you talk of, you were asked to jump in at 3am in the morning to fix a major issue on a production environment at the eleventh hour?.....because of your extreme experience?

yes

And then you took an “educated guess” as to what the problem could be ......and thats exactly what it turned out to be?

yes

And then you say that you could have done a small “fix” but that would have produced inaccurate id cards. You dont have a separate test team who can easily figure out you just did a kludge?

As any logical experienced PM would know, That route would have taken days, not hours, before accurate ID cards could have been mailed out. Ever hear of customer service??

And now you want me to explain the design problem?

Not until you make and educated guess, i.e. if you are capable.

[ravager]

Have I heard of customer service? My 8 year old nephew has heard of customer service.

Look mister.....your nonsense story has broken the BS meter. Don't waste my time.

[khelus]

though let me also point out that i've met extremely good programmers who were from the US, India, Ireland, Russia, Romania, Poland, Italy, etc. etc. --> and I've also met extremely shitty programmers who were from the US, India, Ireland etc. etc. ...

You are absolutely correct. In my experience when the old H-1 visa was replaced with the H-1B and alphabet soup of other guest worker visas tied to 'free trade' agreements and over riding US immigration law, the body shops such as Infosys and Tata started supplying just warm bodies, not quality, using the mantra the warm bodies were doing a job americans couldn't / wouldn't do. Resumes were [and still are being] falsified and no one checked.

It's amazing the lies bean counters and some managers bought in pursuit of quarterly profits, with no consideration of long term costs, scalability, accuracy, customer service, etc. Everyone's goal is to pass the buck and be somewhere else when the proverbial co patties hit the fan.

[khelus]

... Look mister.....your nonsense story has broken the BS meter. Don't waste my time.

courtesy cc to Cronos

My story is merely one of many examples of the value of experience from one of many SE's.

Cronos has summed it up nicely in post # 116:

I worry about idiots who don't have any logical thinking capability. About my projects, no. I plan those so I don't have to worry about that. And, furthermore, thanks for trying to deviate from your statement Any young professional with some intermediate skill in any of the latest technology can very well get the job done. -- that is false.

ciao, slán go fóill, farvel, alavidha, hágoónee'

[JustSayNoToNannies]

One-fifth to one-tenth the pay, depending on function.

In blatant violation of the law:

"Employers must attest to the Department of Labor that they will pay wages to the H-1B workers that are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment – whichever is greater." - http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm

[khelus]

The problem is that there are lot of legal loopholes in the prevailing wage requirement.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/CohenAndGrigsbyPrevailingWage.txt

I have more info tucked away some where.

In addition guest workers often pay no taxes or taxes on only a small portion of their income.

[ravager]

I dont care who you cc’ed or what you cc’ed. I have had enough of your charade so spare me your theatrics.

You came up with the most outlandish story to sell yourself as an “experienced software engineer”. You never explained what “design problem” you encountered and how you solved it. Instead you cleverly tried to pose that as a question to me. But not clever enough. The holes in your nonsensical story weren't too difficult to find. You only made a fool of yourself.

And all this time you have been ranting against overseas workers calling them cheap and inexperienced. Now I can quite understand the reason for your insecurity. If you were indeed as experienced as you claimed then you would have nothing to worry about with competition from overseas. However you are a mediocre engineer or worse a complete poser. You give American engineers a bad name. People like you screw it up for the rest of us.

[khelus]

Hmm... I thought you didn't want me to waste your precious time.

The story is not nonsense, but fact. Facts and reality are stubborn things. They are not contingent upon your belief in them. I politely requested that you guess what the design problem was, but you never replied.

In fact you never addressed my story other than to call it BS and nonsense. Name calling is a tactic used by those who lack facts. Many would diagnose your denigration of American SE's and the value of experience as a major case of projection.



Another fact still remains: the whistle blower is correct.

post #16

[ravager]

Since you have been repeatedly pinging me with your nonsensical theatrics I thought maybe I should educate you about how things really work in the corporate world.

As for the design problem....I asked the question first. And it was your story not mine. Common courtesy demands you answer first ...... but it is fairly evident you don't even know what a “design problem” is....so nevermind.

In every organization I have worked so far....... whenever there is an issue with a live system, usually the customer service is the first line of defense. Whenever there is a major fault with the system that stalls the entire process (such as the one you described) the customer service usually opens a ticket, documents the error, collect all the environment test metrics information, failure logs, fail data and all other information necessary to reproduce the error and the issue is escalated to engineering. The engineering has to go through all the log files that captured the entire event to identify the failed classes. The ticket is assigned to engineers who have either written those classes or are responsible for maintaining those classes. Only the engineers who have been actively involved in development/design of the system and thoroughly understand the internal design and function of the system is assigned the ticket.

You don't call up some Rambo/Cowboy totally unrelated/unfamiliar with the actual development/design of the system at 3am in the morning and ask them to fix the mess regardless of how vast their experience may be. That is stuff of legends, never happens ANYWHERE in real life.

...Thereafter the engineers usually have to run a bunch of tests to investigate further to determine the exact origin and nature of the error. They have to carefully study the failure logs, stack traces and all other test metrics that capture fail data and provide more information on the error. You don't go by “educated guesses”. You have to know EXACTLY what went wrong. You may have have a theory, you may have a hunch but you need to verify that by running a suite of tests and reproducing the error and know exactly what caused it before you start changing the code. The issue could originate in a number of areas such as the business rules,action classes, service classes, frameworks, middle-tier, messaging, persistence classes, data objects, data sources, queries, procedures....

If it is found to be a major design issue then you usually have a series of meetings involving engineers, PMs, and mostly importantly the stakeholders and/or customers or their representatives. The objective of such a meeting is to present all available option and weigh the pros and cons of each available options. Typically in most cases you try to hash out a “work-around” to keep the current process running and schedule a redesign for the next release cycle if necessary. Either ways its never a “one man call” as you present in your bullshit story. More often its the business impact that dictates what course of action to be taken. Engineers present their options but its usually its the stakeholders and customers whose opinion carry more weight in such situations.

[ravager]

From your outlandish story its easy to tell you have never actually seen the inside of a corporate organisation. You made up something totally out of your own imagination. I have conducted numerous interviews where people cook up outlandish stories narrating experiences they never had, and you are not even as good as them.

It has been my observation that people with no real substance are often the ones most vocal against overseas workers. They come online and indulge in throwing epithets and lables on some very smart enginneers from overseas. And such people like you are a huge disgrace.

[ichabod1]

This is the problem: it is the wisdom that leads to the productivity, but HR (leftists) don’t see that when they’re throwing resumes away.

[khelus]

This is the problem: it is the wisdom that leads to the productivity, but HR (leftists) don’t see that when they’re throwing resumes away.

Agreed.

In my experience, once upon a time it was the PM's who were responsible for getting the work done who reviewed resumes, performed interviews, and did the hiring.

Today resumes hit the circular file in HR if they don't meet the PC requirements of the nanny state, and the CHEAP labor requirements of the bean counters. On the whole PM's recognized the value of wisdom; HR doesn't.

[khelus]

Good Gravy!

So many words and so much vitriol in posts #127 & #128 growing out of your erroneous belief that SE’s, logical skills, programming skills, and experience are of no value.
You have completely proved my and Cronos’s points.

Hint: reread posts #114 and #116.

ciao, slán go fóill, farvel, alavidha, hágoónee’

[ravager]

I think your time would be better spent with some soul searching then posting meaningless commentary on FR.