Posted on 04/21/2012 11:39:34 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY
(Reuters) - China's military warned the United States on Saturday that U.S.-Philippine military exercises have raised risks of armed confrontation over the disputed South China Sea in the toughest high-level warning yet after weeks of tensions.
China's official Liberation Army Daily warned that recent jostling with the Philippines over disputed seas where both countries have sent ships could boil over into outright conflict, and laid much of the blame at Washington's door.
This week American and Filipino troops launched a fortnight of annual naval drills amid the stand-off between Beijing and Manila, who have accused each other of encroaching on sovereign seas near the Scarborough Shoal, west of a former U.S. navy base at Subic Bay.
The joint exercises are held in different seas around the Philippines; the leg that takes place in the South China Sea area starts on Monday.
"Anyone with clear eyes saw long ago that behind these drills is reflected a mentality that will lead the South China Sea issue down a fork in the road towards military confrontation and resolution through armed force," said the commentary in the Chinese paper, which is the chief mouthpiece of the People's Liberation Army.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
They are certainly moving that way, but are not there yet.
If they keep up like they have been doing though, in another 5-10 years they will be.
A little disruption like we did in the Middle East and China would be a fractured as North Africa.
As far as I’m concerned, the Phillipines own the entire spratly islands and china and vietnam can pound sand.
But, but.. I thought the Filipinos wanted us OUT so we transferred Clark Air Base over to them.. Who’s crying now?
I can't even see them risking an attack against Taiwan nowadays. Even if Bambi didn't retaliate for an ally, at the least he would be forced to void US debt and/or embargo their products which would kill their economy. Not good for a government/populace that is starting to reap the rewards of capitalism. Think about the many casinos that are being built for the wealthy/middle-class in Macau, not to mention the infra-structure being built for remote poor.
Google Macau +gambling +hotels +resorts. You will be amazed at the level of refinement of their resorts. It's the Las Vegas of the orient. You think the Chinese government is going risk such an income producer? Hardly.
As much as I was involved in anti Chi-Com demonstrations back in the late 90's, I don't fear them now, although I wish Clinton hadn't sold our missle/MIRV tech for campaign contributions and should have been prosecuted for being a traitor. My fear is about the rogue nations that just don't care if their people die, especially Iran with their "death wish" for the 12th Imman to crawl out of some well.
China will go back and forth for awhile with the old guard trying to hang on. However, once they got Hong Kong back and discovered how well capitalism works and appeased the people, there is no turning back. China still has a long way to go regarding civil rights and multi-party politics.
The communist party will bluster, but they are still allowing more internal and outside enterprise on a daily basis. Guess how many large American companies have a presence in China (think McDonalds for one). I expect to see China change its entire political structure within my lifetime. Do you know how many of their companies are on the NYSE or Pink Sheets? You'd be surprised.
Million man swim perhaps ?
And we are helping them by continually downsizing our Armed Forces.
Gee, who coulda seen THIS coming?
The United States was Japan's largest trading partner right up until Pearl Harbor.
France was Germany's largest trading partner right up until Hitler's storm troopers went marching down the Champs d'Elysees.
Just an observation.
Great map...therein one can see the extent to which the Chinese are going to dominate their neighbors, and why the US Navy’s involvement is so critical.
The chinese basically want to claim the entirety of the South China Sea right up to their neighbor’s beaches.
I have no use for the UN, but even their Economic Zones do not allow for anything close to this.
Right now the Chinese are embroiled in a standoff with the Philipines where the Philipines caught fishermen red handed within zone and stopped them. Now two Chinese Coast Guard vessels and a couple fo Philipine vessels are in a standoff on the disposition of those fishermen who the Philipines want to take into custody and charge with infringing on and taking fish from their zone.
Clearly should it escalate the Philipine Navy will be hopelessly outclassed by the Chinese, But the US Navy is a different matter and our interest is to ensure that we and our allies have free transit of those seas...which the Chinese claim would hinder in that critical part of the world.
THE RISING SEA DRAON IN ASIA
http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/
I have kept track of the rise of the Chinese Navy for the last nine years. They are building new modern surface and submarine combatants at a break neck speed, while we are decommissioning almost as many as we build...and for several years decommissioned more than we built. In the last years of the Bush administration this was turned around...but Obama is now leaning back the other way.
And, A Navy Vet, while it is absolutely true that the Red Chinese have abandoned the Moaist and Stalinist economic models that ultimately led to the fall of the Soviet Union, what they are adotping is very much market driven, but not really a free-market model. I believe it is much more akin to what the Germans adopted prior to World War II. It is more fascist in nature and if they can get their people behind it for Nationalistic Prode and Defense purposes, it can be very dangerous. It took most of the world to put the Nazis down and there were only 60-70 million of them.
If the Chinese can succssefully build such a fascist economy on a population base of 1.2 bllion, it’s going to get very dangerous and dicey out there. That’s why we need to reign them in now, while we still can and while we still exert such power over their economy.
It is true that they are building a huge amount of our products, and that there is a massive impbalance, bt they are dependent on that matrket utterly. They would wuickly go bankrupt if there was any chance that we were moving towards idling their manufacturing in favor of our own. We can ease into that and slow them down to a point of reducing the threat markedly iof we have the will to do so.
After all, according to the video game Fallout 3, China and America go to full-on nuclear war, starting first with an invasion of Alaska.
2066 (winter): China invades Alaska. The Anchorage Front Line becomes a true battleground.[30][31]
2067: The first suit of T-45d power armor is deployed in Alaska. While lacking the full mobility of future versions, this power armor is incredibly effective against Chinese tanks and infantry. Its ability to carry heavy ordnance becomes key in various localized conflicts, and it has the power to destroy entire towns without endangering the wearer. China rushes to create its own versions, but they are many years behind the United States.[15]
2072: The United States' increasing demand for Canadian resources causes protests and riots in several Canadian cities. An attempted sabotage of the Alaskan pipeline is all the military needs as an excuse to finalize its annexation of Canada, which had already begun in 2067.[30]
2074: Contrary to their claims of seeking only to retake Alaska from the Reds, American power armor units, infantry, and mechanized divisions are deployed to China, but they become bogged down on the mainland, putting a further drain on American resources and supply lines.
2077: Gas prices sky rocket with the regular gas price being $7450.99 per gallon and $8500.99 per gallon for premium.[40]
October 23, 2077: The Great War: bombs are launched; who struck first is unknown. Other countries, seeing the missiles on their way, launch their planes and fire their warheads as well. Air raid sirens sound, but very few people heed the warning, thinking it is a false alarm. The vaults are sealed. Two hours of nuclear bombardment ensues upon the earth's surface. The effects are far worse than most imagined. The earth's faults shift violently, thrusting mountain ranges through the soil. Whole lands are submerged under floods of water.[43]
So, to prevent against this unescapable fate, we need to thoroughly nuke China.... NOW.
Not to worry - after “his next election” Obama will have the flexibility to allow China to take whatever it wants without “going to war”.
The Dragon's Fury: World War against America and the West
In mine, the war is 8 yeras long, involves an invasion of Alaska, and also the Chinese taking Australia and all of South East Asia, being allied with India and the Greater Islamic Republic and extending their allied dominance from the middle of the Pacific across to Moscow and Eastern Europe, most of Africa and most of South America and parts of Central America before we start to throw them back in horrific battles, including nuclear exchanges.
With indefinate lifespans.
Change China to Japan and it is 1941 all over again....Fools fail to pay attention to history repeating itself.
There are far too many submarines in the world.
I propose that the Office of Naval Research (ONR) develop some means by which a submarine would both lose propulsion, yet be unable to surface, being inexorably drawn downward, descending past crush depth.
A type of netting would work well for the first part, as once tangled in their propellers they would lose propulsion.
The second part might be accomplished with two or more heavy concrete blocks, attached to the net by cable, with some type of powerful motor to “reel in” the cable when it snags its prey.
The blocks and net could be pre-positioned, and the net could remain too deep to be noticed until a signal is sent to raise it.
Bethesda Game Studios makes some fantastic games. I was very into Elder Scrolls IV, Oblivion, and now have Skyrim too. Unbelievable graphics.
Too bad they do not have a networkable play option...but good enough without it anyway.
Mk-46 works very well in this regard.
Not only did they kick us out Clark, but also Naval Station Subic Bay. I always thought that some day they would learn to regret it. I’ve often wondered what happened to Olongapo and Subic City and where all those “hostesses” went and legit workers went.
Again, I was a street activist against Chi-Coms.
Ah c'mon everyone knows that our most threatening enemies are the ones who have to steal our planes, build improvised bombs and blow themselves up. This is the war on terrorism we've been at for 10 years We free trade with China. We wouldn't do that if they were building capability, or would we?
Don't get me wrong, I don't support the current China regime with their many oppressive policies. However, their "free-market" model is more open than most know. I follow their economic trends because of being a global investor.
As for the Nazis, they didn't have Trident subs to deal with. Yours and the poster's above statement about history repeating itself is not valid in this nuclear age. With all the China government faults (plenty), they are not suicidal, unlike the Norks and various Islamist regimes.
I may be naive, but I think China's leadership wants to live and prosper. They've seen the writing on the wall since Hong Kong and are changing by the day. The old guard will be gone within the next 5-10 years. Yes, some politicos/military may fight it, but once people get a taste of liberty and prosperity, governments fall. They are getting that taste of freedom daily.
Think how many nations have followed our example since 1776.
Unfortunately, once the populace sees what government can do for them the old circle continues, as seen by the EU and the USA.
As stated on my above post, look at how many western companies are doing business with them. Their biggest problem on the NYSE is not adhering to certain financial rules that get them kicked of the exchange. They bring in western auditors and fix their problems and allowed back. The regime is also allowing their people to own land and start/own businesses daily. Quite a change from their past totalitarian mindset. I don't believe their economic policies are "fascist". Understand the argument, but it's a different age for economies. Even though they call themselves communists, they are heading towards a European socialist economic model.
"...That’s why we need to reign them in now, while we still can and while we still exert such power over their economy."
I don't believe they are the threat any more. Nations/leadership change - some for the better as in Viet Nam (much investment happening there); some for the worse as in Iran and North Korea and the "Arab Spring" muslim countries. Venezuela and Cuba are lost for the time being. That may change, also.
"It is true that they are building a huge amount of our products, and that there is a massive impbalance, bt they are dependent on that matrket utterly. They would wuickly go bankrupt if there was any chance that we were moving towards idling their manufacturing in favor of our own. We can ease into that and slow them down to a point of reducing the threat markedly iof we have the will to do so."
Agreed. I wish that our regulation/tax/immigration policies would revert to encourage American manufacturing. Guess I'm not a "Hopey and Changey" person. I want us to relive our glory days of being the strongest economic and military power, although we still are just barely.
Take care. If you want to talk privately, please FReepmail.
One should always consider the importance of plausible deniability.
In the last few months before it fell, I believe the Soviet Union lost four submarines, with the assumption that they suffered the same mechanical failure. If, say, a half dozen of China’s best submarines all went bloop in just a few days, with no indication prior to a loud noise when they got too deep, there is little or nothing China could do, other than fret.
But it would do much to take them down a few pegs as far as willingness to engage in aggression.
“Those darned Krakens!”
They don't need to fight us, if pushing their weight around causes us to retreat without a fight.
As in Sun Tsu's "The Art of War", the epitome of skill is to win without fighting, by destroying the enemy's willingness to fight you.
I still think the Chinese have too much to lose by a real war but that doesn’t mean we can let them bully, bluff and intimidate their way into more power. I do understand your point that you can never assume anything with such a government. Even if a monster tries real hard to look less like a monster it is never the less still a monster.
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