Skip to comments.Will Zimmerman Have Special Hearing For Self-Defense Claim? SYG Hearing Held Before Trial
Posted on 04/25/2012 2:49:23 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
SANFORD, Fla. -- The lawyer for the man accused of killing Trayvon Martin said it's too soon to know it they'll claim self-defense under the Stand Your Ground law.
In Florida, if a person is charged with murder and is able to prove Stand Your Ground, then the case will never see trial, and experts said that is what they feel Zimmerman and his team will try and to prove.
Zimmerman will have a special immunity hearing before the case ever goes to trial.
At Zimmerman's bond hearing on Friday, one of the lead investigators said they did not know who started the fight between Zimmerman and Martin and that he did not have any evidence to contradict Zimmerman's story that Martin attacked him.
Veteran defense attorney and prosecutor Jeff Deen said Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, moved closer to proving self-defense under Stand Your Ground in the hearing.
"The state is at a terrible disadvantage. They never had the evidence, apparently, and they don't have any now. To have charged second-degree murder is very problematic at this point," said Deen.
Martin's family attorney said they trust special prosecutor Angela Corey.
"All of the experts, they haven't seen any evidence," said Martin family attorney Natalie Jackson. "So I would take what they say with a grain of salt."
From 2001 to 2004, Florida Department Law Enforcement statistics show the average number of justifiable homicides per year was around 12. After Stand Your Ground was passed and implemented, that average jumped to 40 or more annually in 2007 to 2010.
O'Mara said he feels Zimmerman's murder charge will be wiped away if Stand Your Ground applies.
"It's much too early. I'm not even certain [the] Stand Your Ground statue applies yet. It seems like it will have some application, but it's too premature," said O'Mara.
Yes. They will have that hearing. The Defense Atty is just not saying so now. SYG didn’t exist when I prosecuted in VA.
As for immunity from civil prosecution, I haven’t read the full statute so have no idea.
I really think we need SYG to apply so he is immune. Otherwise if his defense is “just” self defense, is he immune?
From my perspective: for justice' sake, Zimmerman needs to be exonerated NOW, damn the consequences. If riots happen, let 'em riot. A few more Trayvons need to be put down, is all.
What I’m wondering is, if he was on the ground having his head bashed in as I believe he’s going to argue, does Stand Your Ground even apply? Wouldn’t regular-old self-defense fit? I mean, you can’t very well run away if you’re being pinned, as I believe is Zimmerman’s story. The authorities should know by now the path of the bullet through Martin’s body, which along with the bloody head pics and eye witness testimony should go a long way toward settling this.
That’s pretty much my question; I think they’ll go the self defense route which it clearly was but does that limit their ability to protect themselves from civil suits if it’s not specifically argued under SYG.
“From the Obamunist perspective: They need to go ahead and exonerate Zimmerman, so the riots can occur now and not when most people are paying attention, just before the Nov election.”
No, I think he wants people to be paying attention. If this case is going to help him, it’s by playing on black voters’ emotions. Not that Obama’s been involved enough for that to be his plan. it obviously is the plan of Jackson/Sharpton and various other interested parties. But if he were, it would be for the same reason that he’s out pushing for student debt relief and why not so long ago everyone was harping about “the war on women.”
Namely, it’s for the sake of identity politics. Obama needs the female vote, the student vote, the old fogey vote, the black vote, the hispanic vote, and every other kind of vote you can think of. Therefore, it would be in his interest for riots to coincide with people paying attention to him. Most of the people who wouldn’t vote for Obama because they associate him with racial strife wouldn’t vote for Obama anyway.
Because there isn't any, Nat!
I want to know when the Florida Bar will open up an investigation on Angela Corey, that political hack/prosocutor.
I want to know if she knew about Zimmermans head wounds before she filed charges.
Maybe that’s why she is NOWHERE to be found, since the photos came out. She does not want to be questioned about her
knowledge of the photo’s.
Mrs. Corey, did you know about the Zimmerman Head Wounds before you filed charges? Yes or No?
Did you see the articles today? Seems that Zimmerman’s grandmother that helped raise him is as much of an African-American as our President. Both products of bi-racial parents......Actually laughed out loud. ZImmerman is more a son of BO then TM.
High level constituent discussion:
Let’s see...who to pit against whom, while we put the finishing touches on the next campaign for expanded revenues: black against white, or white against black? We only need to continue throttling police/court policies here and pushing them there. And don’t forget to pay the media sponsorships.
looks like Zimmerman is the one who would look like zero if zero had a son...
Thanks for the pings.
Thanks for the pings.
Hey Lucy the list might want to see my comment at 10 and Fred Nerks pictures.
BO has opened his mouth only to switch feet AGAIN! LOL
She may not have cared. The spirit of Mike Nifong lingers.
I wonder why even Reuters is now telling the “rest of the story”. I guess they got their assets handed to them. I fervently hope that this never makes it to trial, Corey is fired/disbarred or whatever, and Zimmerman sues the msm, Black Panthers, Jackson and Sharpton for gazillions of dollars.
Moran:( why not?)
Let the record show that the POSOTUS removed the defendants due process rights by commenting on the case publicly with the collusion and assistance of the Main Stream Media, siding with the deceased perpetrator, precipitating threats upon the defendants live, and removing any possibility for a fair trail.
I introduce the following “ New Black Panther Wanted Dead or Alive Poster as exhibit #1, so marked , for inspection by the court, a felonious act against the defendent yet unpunished.
Any idea as to when this might happen? I seem to remember that the next court date was 5/6, or 5/9.
Zimmerman will move for immunity, arguing that his use of deadly force is justified under the law. A judge will rule on that. If the judge grants immunity, the case is over. The immunity motion will be filed on May 8th or before.
Yes, if she reviewed the SPD investigation file. The police took pictures.
The alternative is that she did not review the materials in the SPD investigation file.
“who to pit against whom, while we put the finishing touches on the next campaign for expanded revenues: black against white, or white against black?”
Democratic consultant: Both! Life is a war of each against all, until the government steps in and makies it all better.
“I guess they got their assets handed to them”
No, it’s more like at this point, why not? Everyone remembers the headlines; no one reads corrections. This way when we complain they can point to article X, Y, and Z, resting assured Joe Internet never clicked beyond B.
“Let the record show that the POSOTUS removed the defendants due process rights by commenting on the case publicly”
Whensoever there are federal charges, that might apply. Actually, it wouldn’t, but let’s pretend. Since the state is prosecuting him, whatever the president says has no direct bearing.
I think you’re in the ballpark.
Trayvon was bashing his head against the concrete. Really, if someone is on top of you - attempting to murder you - you have the right to defend yourself. That’s waaaaay beyond ‘stand your ground’....
Trayvon was bashing Zimmerman’s head against the concrete. Really, if someone is on top of you - attempting to murder you - you have the right to defend yourself. That’s waaaaay beyond ‘stand your ground’....
Since the state is prosecuting him, whatever the president says has no direct bearing.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As an evidentiary issue it does indeed. For example, when challenging candidates for the jury, the questions of media exposure to the presidents speech and the follow up propaganda could most certainly be asked.
I agree with you on the issue of moving for dismissal as a procedural matter on those grounds. But it would be most interesting if no jurors could be found who were not prejudiced by the presidents propaganda initiative on the case and its skewing prejudgement of fact, the duty of the jury is to decide them.This also violates the whole issue of the presumption of innocence. It is the greatest weakness created by HOW fascism works.
We do have many preliminary procedures which can indeed
lead any reasonable person to conclude that this is a political show trial, such as the voir dire process on pre-examining witnesses. This would lay the ground for victory on appeal , which might be necessary in this case.
Too bad F. Lee Baily was not alive and in his hey day.Alan Dershowitz would be great as co-counsel with Moran.He has already published several arguments about the preliminary filings of the “special” ( political) prosecutor.
This case reminds me of the Dreyfus case and its role in the history of French fascism, and its subsequent Vichy government.I believe that Florida’s government is essentially very much like that Vichy government in its conduct concerning this case.They have been so easily cowed by the Obama fascist movement, displaying the underwhelming discipline of a collection of syphlitic bashi-bazouks, bent on nothing more than self interested political plunder.It places the administration of justice into disrepute, not having a grand jury hear issue of indictment, for example.
They themselves have acted like little fascists.
It would be funnier if no jurors could be found that had heard 0blabbermouth’s demagoguery. That it turns out that more people than ever are turning him off or tuning him out.
Agreed! Then we would have a political trial turned into a possible fair trial.
It’s hard not to be cynical about juries but I do have some hope that there are some fair people that could end up on this one. My big hope is that this judge is fair and can’t be intimidated by political pressure or threats of civil unrest. He can probably make the biggest difference in this trial.
My big hope is that this judge is fair and cant be intimidated by political pressure or threats of civil unrest.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It depends on when appointed and who appointed the judge. Maybe there is one who has no political agenda and knows how to follow the law.
If it's "yes" then she lied about the evidence and should be fired. If it's "no" then she should be fired for not doing her job. Either way, she needs to be disciplined by the bar.
If George is successful at the immunity hearing (highly doubtful, I know), do you think he would have a cause of action against Corey, et. al. for his arrest, etc.?
No. The immunity provision only give a money claim against anybody who brings a civil suit. One always has the option of filing formal ethics complaints and suing for wrongful prosecution, or a civil rights action for deprivation of rights under color of law, but getting money damages from the state is near impossible. Prosecutors are the second most immune species on the planet, judges being first, cops being third. Doesn't mean he doesn't have a case. I think it is a slam dunk to find Corey in an ethics violation.
FWIW, I think Zimmerman is going to get immunity, easily. The facts make this an easy case, not a hard one. I think Judge Lester is unimpressed with the politics, and even if he was, he knows that public sentiment has been created by a gross misrepresentation of the facts (adn law), by the press. I don't think he wants to jump in the pool with Corey.
>>I think it is a slam dunk to find Corey in an ethics violation.<<
Thanks for the info. I do hope it comes to pass. She can be the new Nifong.
I am fearful of the hearing today, when George has to face the judge and explain why the $204,000 wasn’t disclosed. It’s certainly not likely to please the judge, when George’s case relies so much on his honesty.
Zimmerman won't be there. I don't think the judge is going to be angry. O'Mara wasn't aware of the resource, and for now, I think O'Mara has placed the resource out of Zimmerman's reach so that it doesn't give him an incentive to avoid the court's power and potential adverse judgment.
Today's hearing is mostly about public access to the state's case. It's trivially easy to satisfy the court that Zimmerman is no more of a flight risk today, than he was a week ago.
You turned out to be correct, as usual. I watched most of the hearing. The judge wanted more facts before he ruled, and didn’t seem upset at all. He is one professional, cook cucumber. He wasn’t even sure if he has the power to rule on the money. I guess it would depend on who has control of it. It’s possible Zimmerman didn’t even know how much was there last week at the bond hearing. But it sure gave ammunition to the Trayvon supporters.
Now that O’Mara has control of the money, I wonder how Zimmerman is going to eat and have a place to stay. The money has to come from somewhere.
Did you see that they may even disclose the donor list? Since I’m on it, it does concern me.
I'm sure O'Mara will provide an allowance of sorts, pay the bills for Zimmerman. The money is there, and O'Mara disclosed to the court that Zimmerman had been using it for living expenses. I'm sure the court has no problem with that sort of usage, whatsoever.
-- Did you see that they may even disclose the donor list? --
Yes, but I'm not sure how transparent that is. I have a paypal account, and it uses my PayPal handle. I do have a confirmed name and address, but I don't believe that information appears in a PayPal statement. When I've had receipts into my PayPal account, they are id'd by PayPal handle.
That said, O'Mara will figure out a way to get the accounting to the state, without disclosing donor information. Donor ID is irrelevant to the state's concern, which is cash resources available to Zimmerman. The source of the money is irrelevant. The fact that the money is there is the only relevant consideration. The Court wants to know the timing of cash flow, to investigate whether or not Zimmerman's family knew or should have known of the resource, and whether O'Mara knew or should have known (all that being before the bond hearing).
Do you know of a good place to see the court hearings? This one wasn’t even on CNN, but I found it live here: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/
Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any way to record it that I could figure out.
“when challenging candidates for the jury, the questions of media exposure to the presidents speech and the follow up propaganda could most certainly be asked”
It was a few comments after being directly asked about it, not a speech; unless you’re talking about some speech with which I’m unfamiliar. That being said, well, yeah, Obama could taint potential jury members, but that’s a very weak and indirect way for Obama to violate due process. It would be based less on his authority as a government figure than his being a celebrity. Though, of course, he is a celebrity because he’s a government figure.
But I really do think his violating due process would have to come from him intefering in an official capacity, not from casual comments at a press conference. Which comments, by the way, fell far short of “String Zimmerman up!” You might as well charge Spike Lee, or the entire MSM for that matter, with violation of due process according to that logic.
“the presidents propaganda initiative on the case”
I disagree with this characterization. Look, the president is a lot of things, politically almost all of them bad. But he did not carry out a propaganda initiative against Zimmerman. Perhaps Democrat operatives did, less likely administration officials in official capacity did. If they did so, I’m not aware of it. If it happened, it probably would have been part of drumming up a federal case of some sort against him, rather than an attempt to influence state criminal procedings.
If they did influence state procedures, it was behind the scenes and therefore not propaganda.
“This also violates the whole issue of the presumption of innocence. It is the greatest weakness created by HOW fascism works.”
It would be the most subtle form of fascism I’ve ever seen. What I think’s going on here is that you’re mistaking the whole big propaganda job by the MSM against Zimmerman with the eensy weensy little sliver of participation in it by Obama. He evinced pro-Martin/anti-Zimmerman sympathy, but it hardly consisted of an insurmountable prejudicing of the potential jury pool.
I happen to believe presidents shouldn’t comment on ongoing cases, even casually. But them doing so does not erase the possibility of avoiding a show trial. Arguing otherwise is frankly in the realm of wild conspiracy theorizing.
“which can indeed lead any reasonable person to conclude that this is a political show trial”
If it’s a show trial, it is at the state level. As for Obama’s connection, every potential jury member interviewed, when asked if they’ve seen any news coverage of the case, may respond, “Yes, the president says he’s guilty, and therefore I say bring on the chair!” In that case, yes, it would be Obama’s show trial. But that won’t happen. At most, the president’s comments will be one of many, many news pieces influencing them.
“This case reminds me of the Dreyfus case”
I can see similarities, especially in the drastic overcharge. I’d be less likely to say it was an out and out set-up had Zimmerman been charged with manslaughter. It’s certainly set the ideologues against eachother. But, again, it is not a federal case, and therefore less resembles Dreyfus. At most it’s Florida’s Dreyfus.
No. CNN cuts away, and that MyFoxOrlando site showed only 3 or 4 minutes of the hearing today, probably missing the important prts becsue the press is focused on the non-issue of Zimmerman's website getting a good pile of donations.
I casually dig around looking for sites with raw informaion and direct quotes, but so far don;t have much in the way of "magic" to make it easy.
Actually, I believe the MyFoxOrlando site showed the whole hearing live, but doesn’t have it on its website now.
The reason I think that is because this site: http://cfnews13.com/chat.html did a live chat throughout the hearing (which is still on their website), so I know that I saw most of the hearing on the MyFoxOrlando site even though I missed the very beginning of the hearing.
Thanks for the document sites.