Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Utah's Liljenquist Pledges to Work to Repeal NDAA and 17th Amendment
The New American ^ | April 25, 2012 | Joe Wolverton, II

Posted on 04/25/2012 4:09:49 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Candidate for Senate Dan Liljenquist (left) pledged to The New American that should he be elected to the U.S. Senate he will offer legislation explicitly repealing the indefinite detention provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA).

In a press conference held on April 24 at 2:00 p.m. (MDT), the former Utah State Senator and current GOP challenger to six-term Senator Orrin Hatch described the indefinite detention provisions of the NDAA as “an overreach and a violation of the Bill of Rights.” He said that had he been in office when Congress voted to pass the NDAA he would have been “a no vote.”

Later in the interview, in a surprising answer to a question, Liljenquist informed The New American that he supports the repeal of the 17th Amendment. Regarding , Liljenquist explained his opposition to tthe popular election of the U.S. Senate that was effected by the ratification of the 17th Amendment to the Constitution:

“There is a disconnect between the state legislatures and the state delegations in Washington, D.C.” “I commit that if I ever lose the support of the Utah State Legislature, I will come home and not return to Washington,” he continued.

The candidate is correct in his view of the proper relationship between state government and federal Senate as established by our Founders in the Constitution. History is on Liljenquist’s side, as well.

Edmund Randolph, Governor of Virginia and representative of that state at the Constitutional Convention, said that the object of the particular mode of electing Senators was to “control the democratic branch.” Recognizing the terrors historically accompanying any government with even a slight tincture of democracy, Randolph admonished that “a firmness and independence may be the more necessary in this branch, as it ought to guard the Constitution against encroachments of the Executive who will be apt to form combinations with the demagogues of the popular branch.”



James Madison, known appropriately as the Father of the Constitution, said that “the use of the Senate is to consist in its proceeding with more coolness, with more system, and more wisdom than the popular branch” and to “protect the people against the transient impressions in which they themselves might be led.”



During the debates on the matter in the Convention, Luther Martin of Maryland said it plainly: “The Senate is to represent the states.” 

Finally, Roger Sherman, an influential delegate to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, wrote in a letter to John Adams: “The senators, being … dependent on [state legislatures] for reelection, will be vigilant in supporting their rights against infringement by the legislative or executive of the United States.”





With Sherman’s assessment in mind, is it reasonable to regard the abolition of this check on the legislative and executive branches of the central government as a purposeful tactic of the enemies of our Constitution? That is to say, with the “artillery” of state legislatures silenced by the 17th Amendment, the ability of the legislative and executive branches to collude in the usurpation of power would be significantly increased. Indeed, the “combination” of demagogues in the executive and legislative branches has formed and has thrived in the post-17th Amendment electoral environment.


In his comments, Liljenquist displayed a remarkable and noteworthy comprehension of other fundamental aspects of federalism, as well. In response to a question from The New American regarding his interpretation of the Tenth Amendment, enumerated powers, and the right of states to be self-governing, Liljenquist answered in a frank and well-informed manner that should please all supporters of the Constitution in the Beehive State.

“I’m a Tenth Amendment guy and a states’ rights guy,” Liljenquist proclaimed. “I will work to remove power from the federal government and return power to the states,” he added.

As a former member of the Utah State Senate, Liljenquist knows from whence he speaks. With regard to Washington’s usurpation of power, Liljenquist laments that state legislators are forced to “beg for their lives” from the federal government just for the right to govern their states. “We have lost our way and have allowed Congress and the Courts to use the Commerce Clause to centralize government power in Washington,” Liljenquist remarked.

On the issues page of his campaign’s official website, Liljenquist takes a decidedly state-centered tack with regard to several key national issues.

Under “Entitlements,” Liljenquist writes that “if we are going to have a welfare program at all, it should be administered at a state level.”

Regarding education, Liljenquist states that “there is no role for the federal government in education.”

And, as one might expect from a Republican senatorial candidate from the west where the federal government has unconstitutionally seized control of vast swaths of land, Liljenquist promises that should he be elected to serve in Washington, he will “strongly promote measures to give Utah and other states not only control over [their] land, but also the ability to develop [their] own natural resources.”

In an article published online this week by The New American, Thomas Eddlem recounts the story of Liljenquist’s success in the Utah Republican Convention to force Orrin Hatch into a primary race, the first time Hatch has faced such a challenge since elected to his current seat in 1976. Eddlem writes:

Six-term incumbent Utah Senator Orrin Hatch ... will face a primary opponent for the first time since he was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1976, after the Utah GOP convention narrowly failed Saturday to give him the 60 percent super-majority needed to avoid a primary. The 78-year-old Senator came up just 31 votes short of avoiding a primary, and will face former state Senator Dan Liljenquist in the primary.

“Hatch received 59.2 percent of delegate vote to Liljenquist's 40.8 percent,” on the second ballot, the Utah-based Deseret News reported April 21. “Candidates need 60 percent of the vote to win the party nomination outright. Eight other candidates did not advance after the first ballot.”

For his part, Hatch packaged the obvious setback as a success in disguise. After the convention, Hatch told the Salt Lake Tribune: "We’re going to win it.” He is reported by the Salt Lake City daily to have called the vote causing the primary “a tremendous victory.”

"We’re pretty darn happy about what did happen. It sent a message. It says that this tough old bird isn’t someone you can just trample on,” Hatch added.

While there is much for constitutionalists to celebrate in the candidacy of Dan Liljenquist and his challenge to the GOP Establishment that has voted consistently to perpetuate corporate welfare and to pass one after the other measure consolidating all power in the hands of the plutocrats on the Potomac, there are a few issues where Liljenquist could yet benefit from a more dedicated study of the Constitution.

His stances on the Balanced Budget Amendment (he’s for it), Cut, Cap and Balance (he describes himself as a “vocal supporter” of it), and immigration (he advocates for the use of the E-Verify system) are inconsistent with his commitment to adhere to the enumerated powers of the Constitution. The Constitution grants no power to the federal government to act in any one of these areas, thus that power is reserved by the states and the people.

Utah voters head to the polls on June 26 to vote in their state’s primary elections.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: 10thamendment; 17thamendment; bba; commerceclause; constitution; convention; cutcapbalance; danliljenquist; democracy; edmundrandolph; education; everify; executive; federalism; gop; jamesmadison; judicial; landgrabs; legislative; luthermartin; ndaa; orrinhatch; primary; republicanism; republicans; rogersherman; senate; statesrights; welfare

1 posted on 04/25/2012 4:09:52 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

I don’t want power given to states, I want power given to the people


2 posted on 04/25/2012 4:12:15 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

THAT is a Republican I could support.


3 posted on 04/25/2012 4:13:35 PM PDT by Tupelo ( 2012 TEA PARTYER but no longer a Republican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

“His stances on the Balanced Budget Amendment (he’s for it), Cut, Cap and Balance (he describes himself as a “vocal supporter” of it), and immigration (he advocates for the use of the E-Verify system) are inconsistent with his commitment to adhere to the enumerated powers of the Constitution. The Constitution grants no power to the federal government to act in any one of these areas, thus that power is reserved by the states and the people.”

Silly argument. (1) If it’s an AMENDMENT, then it’s in the constitution. (2) Cutting and balancing the budget is an inherent part of the budgeting process. Congress is authorized to spend money. Therefore, it can cut the spending and balance it. (3) Finally, controlling immigration is part of sovereignty. I don’t see how the author thinks the US has no business controlling immigration into the United States.


4 posted on 04/25/2012 4:19:30 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks; Utah Girl; Andyman; colorcountry; bob84108; DFH69; pennyfarmer; JDW11235; ...

I do hope that Dan Liljenquist manages to win this. We need more like him in the U.S. Senate.


5 posted on 04/25/2012 4:19:56 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (A liberal's compassion is limited to the size of other peoples' paychecks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Clintonfatigued; BillyBoy; Impy; AuH2ORepublican; JohnnyZ

I bitterly oppose the repeal of the 17th. That would prevent the election of Republicans in states with heavy and reliable Democrat legislative majorities for perpetuity, and those that would elect Republicans would likely be establishment type RINOs.


6 posted on 04/25/2012 4:24:44 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (If you like lying Socialist dirtbags, you'll love Slick Willard)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: fieldmarshaldj

It’s a lousy idea, but it won’t pass. On the whole, Liljenquist is a great candidate, this unfortunate error aside.


7 posted on 04/25/2012 4:28:22 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (A liberal's compassion is limited to the size of other peoples' paychecks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Repeal the 17th! I LOVE IT!

The Founders knew that one house had to be chosen by the states, not in popular election, in order to have wisdom and deliberation in lawmaking.

The 17th short-circuits that, and makes a Senator just another election whore, but with a 6-year term, that allows him to do a lot more damage before he is thrown out.

8 posted on 04/25/2012 4:37:16 PM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

I may have to move to Utah just to vote for him.


9 posted on 04/25/2012 4:38:39 PM PDT by bgill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GeronL
I don’t want power given to states, I want power given to the people

So, do you oppose taking power away from FedGov, just because it can't be immediately transferred to the people?

Wake up. Every function that has been devolved to the states (e.g., gun legislation) has resulted in more freedom for the people. The Founders intended government to be closer to the people. The several states are surely closer to the people than an all-powerful central government.

10 posted on 04/25/2012 4:41:52 PM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

I agree with him.


11 posted on 04/25/2012 4:44:43 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Did Hatch vote in favor of the NDAA?


12 posted on 04/25/2012 4:49:48 PM PDT by ChocChipCookie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fieldmarshaldj

I take it you’ll support Mr. Hatch then?

(I currently oppose repealing the 17th Amendment until we get rid of the disease known as fleebagging Democrats. I do support Mr. Liljenquist, however.)


13 posted on 04/25/2012 6:02:09 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Occupy DC General Assembly: We are Marxist tools. WE ARE MARXIST TOOLS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: ChocChipCookie

It wouldn’t surprise me if he did.


14 posted on 04/25/2012 6:03:12 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Occupy DC General Assembly: We are Marxist tools. WE ARE MARXIST TOOLS!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Nope, Hatch needs to retire. 36 years is long enough (frankly, for probably 90-95% of the Senate, 6 years is too long).


15 posted on 04/25/2012 6:07:02 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (If you like lying Socialist dirtbags, you'll love Slick Willard)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: fieldmarshaldj

That is far less of a problem, as long as those Democrats represent the Democrat legislature in their individual states.

The disaster that was the 17th Amendment did two terrible things. First it made senators responsible to no one, if they could just fool the public or buy the election once each six years. Since it was passed, senators just utterly ignore their home states and think of themselves as independent agents, or much worse, “federal” representatives, or even today “international” representatives. They act like Robin Williams in his role as King of the Moon.

The other terrible thing was a side effect of this. By not having to answer to their states, the states were eliminated as the gateway to direct federal involvement in the lives of individual citizens. If a bureaucrat wants to involve himself in your life today, he can, and your state cannot prevent him from doing so, or even act as a buffer.

As such, the 17th Amendment was the enabling act of the 16th Amendment, The Income Tax, *and* the 18th Amendment, Prohibition, and all the federal prohibition-style laws created ever since.

Were Republican state legislatures responsible for appointing Republican senators, a LOT of RINOs would get the boot, because RINOs have not just made it a habit of sticking it to conservatives, but to their own states as well.


16 posted on 04/25/2012 6:55:48 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

Giving power to the states indirectly and directly gives power to the people. Among other constitutional balances of power, the power of the federal government, the state governments, and the people are supposed to form a balance.

If the states abuse their people, the 14th Amendment allows the federal government to intervene to protect them. But if the federal government wants to abuse the people, the 17th Amendment takes away the power of the states to protect the people from the feds.

Put another way, compare what your state demands of you to what the federal government demands of you. If the primary government you deal with is that of your state, you have more freedom and liberty than if you must obey the feds, whose demands are endless.


17 posted on 04/25/2012 7:02:43 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: GeronL; Clintonfatigued; fieldmarshaldj; Impy; AuH2ORepublican; JohnnyZ
>> I don’t want power given to states, I want power given to the people <<

Amenm GeronL! I get tired of freepers telling us the "conservative" position is to repeat talking points used by pro-slavery Democrats from the 1860s. The RATs and mainstream media must love that stuff, they can keep pretending our side is the one that promoted slavery and use it to turn voters away from the GOP in states with horrible state governments in both parties. I don't want "states" to have more power, I want individuals to have more power.

>> Wake up. Every function that has been devolved to the states (e.g., gun legislation) has resulted in more freedom for the people. <<

Really? News to those of us in Illinois and many other states. Every power the federal government has granted my state government has resulted in more tyranny over the lives of Illinois citizes and corruption for state bureucrats. If you can think of any time they've given me "more freedom" when my state government had exclusive jurisdiction over an issue, please let me know. The freedom to keep and bear arms is BECAUSE its guranteed by federal law, not because states are given the "right" to do whatever they want with gun legislation (if states were given that "right", at least a dozen or so liberal states would pass laws to immediately ban private ownership of guns. Deep down, you "states rights" Conservatives know this, that's why you'd never want the 2nd amendment repealed and"send it back to the states")

>> I bitterly oppose the repeal of the 17th. That would prevent the election of Republicans in states with heavy and reliable Democrat legislative majorities for perpetuity, and those that would elect Republicans would likely be establishment type RINOs. It’s a lousy idea, but it won’t pass. On the whole, Liljenquist is a great candidate, this unfortunate error aside. <<

I agree it will never pass, but the fact is a bunch of self-described "conservatives" keep trying to elect candidates who will insist on pushing this stuff. It's going to embarrass our side when they do, and that is a legitimate reason to give pause about Liljenquist.

After reading the FR aritlce about his views, I can say of his world outlook is quite different from mine. As Impy noted, many of these "you hate the Constitution if you don't agree with me" types overlap, so the people screaming about how the citizens electing Senators is evil are the also ones telling us that democracy is bad (that any "consevative" is offended by the idea that we the people are the ultimate source of the federal goverment's authority is distrurbing to me), amendments banning abortion are terrible, gay marriage enacted at the state level by activist judges is "just fine", anyone that doesn't have two natural born U.S. citizen parents is ineligible for federal office (and you love Obama if you disagree with their premise, etc.), etc., etc.

My experience is alot of these "conservatives" have gravitated to quacks like Ron Paul and Donald Trump. The recent thread on Justin Amash having a RINOish record was a good example too, he was touted by some tea-party groups as some wonderful "constitutional" conservative when he ran. Walter Jones Jr. is another fine example. These kinds of conservatives will cross over to help the RATs accomplish their goals on numerous issues, claiming they're doing it for some noble constitutional reason that the rest of us ignorant masses just don't "get" because we're not enlightened like them. You know, same kind of condescending attitude we get from the liberal elite.

I'm NOT saying Hatch is better, he's been there for decades too long and has grown squishy. If the choice was Hatch or Liljenquist, I'd hold my nose for Liljenquist just because Hatch needs to go. All I'm saying is I'm getting a bad vibe from this guy and his supporters, so I'd keep a close eye on him before jumping to applaud Liljenquist as a rising conservative star. Remember next time, I warned freepers...

18 posted on 04/25/2012 7:07:41 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: yefragetuwrabrumuy; fieldmarshaldj; Clintonfatigued; Impy
>> As such, the 17th Amendment was the enabling act of the 16th Amendment << <

Of course. After passing the 17th amendment, those rascally popularly elected Senators immediately got into their time machine and traveled backwards in time two years earlier to convince the state-legislative appointed Senators to pass the 16th amendment and enact an income tax! Obviously, due to the fact all state-legislature appointed Senators and infallible and noble politicians committed to the best interests of their states, they NEVER would have DARED enact an income tax if not the evil time-traveling popularly elected Senators from the future making them do so.

Likewise, the passage of the 17th amendment is also directly responsible for World War I, the sinking of the titanic, the trail of tears, the assassination of James A. Garfield, bleeding kansas, Dred Scott, Aaron Burr killing Alexander Hamilton, the stamp act, and of course, the Black Death in medieval Europe.

Never underestimate the evil that the 17th amendment can wrought due to the abilities of popularity elected Senators to time-travel back to events that happened BEFORE the amendment was passed.

19 posted on 04/25/2012 7:24:07 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

I agree with your analysis -cases in point, the repeal of DADT, the passage of Health Care Reform, NCLB, the Department of Education, Voter Rights Act, etcetera -ALL squeaky wheel, knee jerk, or special interest group populist initiatives that did not give States a seat at the table to craft and add input into.


20 posted on 04/25/2012 8:08:44 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy
Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane"

Illegals elect and effect Senators today as a result of the 17th Ammendment...

The Census which divides the federal handout pie directly relates to the 'count' which prior to the 17th Senators were not effected by -they could care less about the demands of the mobs in regard to the States they served.

21 posted on 04/25/2012 8:14:30 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

“I don’t want power given to states, I want power given to the people”

The people have their power, in the House of Representatives and in their respective State legislatures.


22 posted on 04/25/2012 8:49:07 PM PDT by MissouriConservative (Voting Newt in 2012.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy

You obviously put a lot of thought into a rather poor argument. A quick check would have let you see that the 16th and 17th amendments were enacted in just a little over two months from each other. And while its stated intent was anything but a federalism argument, its effects on federalism was catastrophic.

Legal expert federal judge Jay Bybee wrote in the Northwestern University Law Review that the Amendment has led to the gradual “slide into ignominy” of state legislatures, with the lack of a state-based check on Congress allowing the Federal government to supersede states.

“Politics, like nature, abhorred a vacuum, so senators felt the pressure to do something, namely enact laws. Once senators were no longer accountable to and constrained by state legislatures, the maximizing function for senators was unrestrained; senators almost always found in their own interest to procure federal legislation, even to the detriment of state control of traditional state functions.”

James Christian Ure, writing in the South Texas Law Review agreed, saying that not only are senators now free to ignore the needs of their state, “they have incentive to use their advice-and-consent powers to install Supreme Court justices who are inclined to increase federal power at the expense of state sovereignty.”

Donald J. Kochan, for an article in the Albany Law Review, analyzed the effect of the Seventeenth Amendment on Supreme Court decisions over the constitutionality of state legislation. He found a “statistically significant difference” in the number of cases holding state legislation unconstitutional before and after the passage of the Seventeenth Amendment, with the number of holdings of unconstitutionality increasing sixfold.

So, while the stated purpose of the 17th Amendment was “greater democracy”, its true result is a bloated and overpowering federal government. Not a good bargain.


23 posted on 04/25/2012 9:45:53 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: backwoods-engineer; yefragetuwrabrumuy

No thanks fellas, I’ll choose my own Senators rather than have other politicians choose them.


24 posted on 04/26/2012 5:02:07 AM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: fieldmarshaldj; Clintonfatigued; BillyBoy; GeronL; AuH2ORepublican; GOPsterinMA; Dengar01

Idiotic position by Liljenquist given that the Utah legislature would be certain to REELECT HATCH OVER HIM. Doy!

And no one aside from a few rocket scientists on the internet cares about this “issue”. Kooky ideas cost you more votes than you gain.


25 posted on 04/26/2012 5:10:34 AM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: DBeers
llegals elect and effect Senators today

And state legislators. DOY!

26 posted on 04/26/2012 6:22:49 AM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Impy

While I agree that the idea would never pass, it is because it would be blocked steadfastly in the senate. They like being free agents, and hate the idea of having to even pretend to watch out for the interests of their state.

I cite the example of John McCain, whose closest thing to a home state is Virginia (though I’ve heard several Virginians disavow him), whose only real connection with Arizona is his wife, a wealthy beer heiress, who buys his seat in the “rotten borough” of Arizona, hopelessly outspending (and viciously smearing) any Arizonan who challenges him.

As a senator, he does nothing for Arizona, and is entirely a federal government animal, chasing his own RINO ambitions. And the only thing Arizona can do is wait for him to be scraped out of his seat when he goes the way, and pray no other hyper-wealthy person buys the seat after him.

So since the 17th Amendment is here to stay, there is even a proposal to in effect, by constitutional amendment, to create a new body, a judicial body, that gives the states at least a little say in the direction of the country.

This idea is for the creation of a “Second Court of the United States”, directly underneath the Supreme Court, but populated with 100 *state* appointed judges. Not a federal court, it does *not* determine if cases are constitutional. Instead, it is a “jurisdictional” court, to determine if a case should be federal, or if it should be returned to the state of origin for decision.

Its only other responsibility is to have original jurisdiction in all lawsuits between the federal government and the states, meaning that the states, not federal judges, would get first crack at such lawsuits.

So what does this accomplish?

1) It replicates the original function of the US senate as a representative of the individual states. So the senators get to keep their free agency, but the states again get a say in how the federal government is run.

2) Each year, America’s 3,600 federal judges send through the appellate courts an enormous number of cases, many of which represent a huge federal assumption of state power. At the federal circuit court level, some 8,000 cases are appealed to the SCOTUS, which can hear only a few dozen, a gigantic bottleneck. So the vast majority are stuck with the circuit court decision, for better or worse, often worse.

With the creation of the 2nd Court, if the SCOTUS refused a case, it would *first* be returned to the 2nd court, which could choose to return it to the states, taking it entirely out of federal hands. And only if they decided that it was indeed a federal issue, would it be returned to the circuit courts for *their* previous decision about its constitutionality.

3) The Obama administration, and presidencies before it, use the Justice Department to harass by lawsuit states that are disobedient to the federal government. It is intolerably expensive for the states to fight such lawsuits in each case having to go up the chain of federal courts, though it can only really be resolved by the SCOTUS. First their state district court, then a panel of their federal appeals court, then the entire appeals court “en banc”, and finally the SCOTUS. If the SCOTUS decides it can hear the case.

A 2nd Court, however, would first let the individual states decide who is right and who is wrong. This is important, as a clear majority of states, or more so, a 2/3rds or even 3/4ths majority of the states, would have a resounding impact on the SCOTUS. In effect, it *could* act as a “safe” version of a constitutional convention. Yet it would still give the SCOTUS a final say as a last check on the process.

Importantly, such lawsuits go both ways, so the states could sue the federal government in front of the other states, to protect both their interests and the interests of their citizens.

So, the bottom line is that a 2nd Court would even go beyond the abolition of the 17th Amendments, and take on federal usurpation of power by all three branches at the same time, but in a gradual manner. In the long term, restoring the balance between the federalism and anti-federalism argument.


27 posted on 04/26/2012 7:07:09 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: DBeers; Impy
>> Illegals elect and effect Senators today as a result of the 17th Ammendment... <<

Psst...Illegals elect and effect political officials in EVERY popularly elected legislative body, ESPECIALLY in the House of Representatives (read about how Loretta Sanchez won her seat). Going by your logic, the "solution" would be to have politicians appoint ALL our officials for us (the President would have to be appointed by Congress too, since JFK stole Texas thanks to illegal alien votes for example, and don't get started on the '96 Clinton/Gore amnesty). How about we just repealing motor-voter laws, passing laws to require photo ID to vote, and taking care of other idiotic loopholes that are really the result of illegal aliens voting in our elections? Or are seriously going to argue that illegally alien vote fraud is only a problem in the U.S. Senate elections?

>> they could care less about the demands of the mobs in regard to the States they served. <<

Yeah yeah yeah.... if only the Mass. state legislature were allowed to appoint some Democrat hack to Ted Kennedy's seat without those annoying little "mob rule" (a.k.a. the citizens of the state speaking up and electing someone who actually listens to them, things would be soooooooo much better in America.

You guys who constantly whine about how things would be soooooooooo much better if politicians appointed our Senate for us use the same logic as the dopes who wants a single-payer health care system. EVERYWHERE else in the world where it's been tried, the system never works and results in a failed bureaucracy, but you insist that's only because they had the "wrong people" in charge and live in your fantasy world that honest, honorable "statesmen" would make sure to do the right thing here.

28 posted on 04/26/2012 7:59:31 AM PDT by BillyBoy (Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: yefragetuwrabrumuy; Impy
>> While I agree that the idea would never pass, it is because it would be blocked steadfastly in the senate. <<

While I agree the idea would never pass, I don't think it would get a majority (or even come close to getting a majority) of votes in the U.S. House, either. And that includes whether the House is controlled by Republicans or Democrats. The Congressmen are up for re-election every 2 years and wouldn't want their opponent running campaign ads saying "Joe Dunn says he wants to empower you... but Joe Dunn tried to take away your power to vote out Washington politicians. Maybe it's time you voted out HIM while you still can. Vote Mark Smith on November 2nd"

What's surprising is the 17th passed in the first place, given that it's an amendment and needs to be ratified by the states. That means not only did U.S. Senators agree to give up their cushy appointed jobs, but state legislatures actually agreed to take away their OWN power! They must have really been shamed into passing that due to some major scandals. They've been trying to have elected members in the UK House of Lords for decades and the Lords always block it. Can't say I blame them, I'd love having a lifetime government job and not being accountable to my constituents. I just thank God I live in America where we don't have royalty and "birthright" mentality.

29 posted on 04/26/2012 8:11:47 AM PDT by BillyBoy (Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Impy

100% right!


30 posted on 04/26/2012 9:08:38 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Really?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Impy
No thanks fellas, I’ll choose my own Senators rather than have other politicians choose them.

That is an illusion. Your state will have no say in it at all. The national commie Dem money will elect the senator of THEIR choice.

The Founders foresaw this. They were smarter than you or me.

31 posted on 04/26/2012 9:12:02 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: GeronL
I don’t want power given to states, I want power given to the people

You have an embarrasingly poor understanding of the US Constitution and what the Founding Fathers intended. I suggest you study up on the matter. The 17th Amendment was a terrible idea and it should be repealed.

32 posted on 04/26/2012 9:14:00 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy
What's surprising is the 17th passed in the first place, given that it's an amendment and needs to be ratified by the states. That means not only did U.S. Senators agree to give up their cushy appointed jobs, but state legislatures actually agreed to take away their OWN power!

Yep. The people were seduced by the promise of "democracy", not realizing that the national democracy of the House needed a counterbalance of states' power in the Senate. Without that counterbalance, the states have NO direct stake in the federal government.

With obvious consequences.

33 posted on 04/26/2012 9:15:50 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: GOPsterinMA; Impy; GeronL
100% right!

Apparently, you are just as ignorant as Impy.

Please read Federalist #62, #63, and #68.

Popular election of the upper body of the legislature has decoupled it from the interests of the states. It is INCOMPATIBLE with the Founders' vision.

They were smarter than we are, guys.

34 posted on 04/26/2012 9:26:16 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: GeronL; Impy; All
From Federalist #63:

"History tells us that there were no long lived republics that did not have a senate. Only Sparta, Rome, and Carthage fit that characteristic of having a senate and a long life. This demonstrates that it is necessary to have some institution that will blend stability with liberty.

Having this second body dissimilar from another will protect the people better than having the whole legislative trust in the hands of one body of men who may betray the people. Returning to the main question of whether the senate will transform itself into a tyrannical aristocracy, he gives several examples of senates designed similarly to the federal proposal that have shown no such tendency. The first is Maryland with a senate very much like the federal senate. Then the British example where the senate instead of being elected for six years is actually an hereditary assembly of opulent nobles and the house is elected for seven years by a small portion of the population. Here we should have seen the aristocratic usurpation and tyranny but instead the senate has barely been able to defend itself against the encroachments of the house elected by the people. "

See, the Founders took their examples from systems that WORKED. The ancient republics, as well as the structures inside the states themselves, provided information on how governments actually BEHAVED.

Again, those guys were WAY smarter than us. The 17th is an abomination.

35 posted on 04/26/2012 9:32:26 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy

> I just thank God I live in America where we don’t have
> royalty and “birthright” mentality.

Except among the Washington elite, such as John Kerry, the Bush family, Al Gore, etc. ad nauseum.

A good cue to such people is that they really like the French legal system, Code Civil, instead of the nasty old egalitarian Common Law system.


36 posted on 04/26/2012 9:54:40 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: backwoods-engineer; Impy

Apparently, you’re ignorant to some of the realities of life.

If direct election of US Senators was still left to the state legislatures, there would be no way a Republican like Mark Kirk or Scott Brown would ever get elected from deep, deep “Blue” states.

Granted, those two are RINOs, but they are a Hell of a lot better than the complete, total Marxists that either the IL or MA legislatures would elect.


37 posted on 04/26/2012 9:59:34 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Really?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]




Boop the Bank Robber’s Nose!

Don’t Let Him Get Away With It!

Donate monthly to help abolish FReepathons
Sponsors will bark up $10 for each new monthly sign-up
Another sponsor will contribute $25 for each new Dollar-a-Day donor

38 posted on 04/26/2012 10:05:33 AM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy
You guys who constantly whine about how things would be soooooooooo much better if...

You guys? I am just stating my opinion -if you do not like; oh well. You want to talk about whining -take look in the mirror

By the way, your arguments suck and I can see why you feel the need to personally attack those who disagree with them.

39 posted on 04/26/2012 10:22:28 AM PDT by DBeers (†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Impy
I’ll choose my own Senators rather than have other politicians choose them.

You don't choose your Senators. The unions and Goldman Sachs choose them for you. Like with Obama and Romney you get to choose a tool which has already been preordained. Election Day is just kabuki.

40 posted on 04/26/2012 10:28:41 AM PDT by Sirius Lee (Sofa King Mitt Odd Did Obamneycare)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: DBeers; Impy; Clintonfatigued; fieldmarshaldj
>> your arguments suck <<

Wow, great comeback. Yeah, that will convince the ignorant masses of how enlightened and smart you "abolish the 17th amendment" types are. Obviously, my arguments "suck" and yours are soooo much better. The 17th amendment is evil, because:

1) It changed how the FOUNDERS established that the government would operate. Of course, so did the other 26 amendments (including the bill of rights), that's why they're called AMENDments, but for some reason it's only bad when 17th changes things.

2) Illegal aliens vote in U.S. Senate elections! Of course, they vote in elections for all the other legislative bodies, including those state legislatures you all love so much.

3) Elected officials passed all kinds of unconstitutional stuff, but then again, so do all the other legislative bodies in America, including those state legislatures you all love so much. Why not have EVERY legislative official in America appointed by politicians since it would supposedly produce such superior officeholders?

4) State officials have NO power over the federal government anymore. Poor little Rahm Emanuel. Boo hoo!

5) Thanks to the power of time travel, the 17th amendment somehow caused the 16th amendment to be enacted retroactively.

With such brilliant arguments, obviously voters are just too dumb to realize how much better things would be if career politicians choose their Senators for them!

41 posted on 04/26/2012 10:58:50 AM PDT by BillyBoy (Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Sirius Lee

And if the legislature elected them the State House Speaker and Senate President who are both a$$h0les would choose them instead.

The idea that politicians would choose better Senators than the public at large is just straight up nonsensical. You’d have massive corruption with the bartering of seats, democrat legislatures would choose the same or even worse pusbags, Republican legislatures would be more likely than not to choose establishment RINO Republicans. The power of the federal government would not be reduced at all by these liberal Senators, that is a bizarre fantasy.


42 posted on 04/26/2012 10:59:38 AM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Sirius Lee; Impy
>> You don't choose your Senators. The unions and Goldman Sachs choose them for you <<

Apparently they didn't get this memo in Wisconsin, since the unions and Goldman Sachs were overwhelmingly in Russ Feingold's camp and the voters elected Ron Johnson instead.

43 posted on 04/26/2012 11:01:41 AM PDT by BillyBoy (Illegals for Perry/Gingrich 2012 : Don't be "heartless"/ Be "humane")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: backwoods-engineer; GOPsterinMA; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj

You are the ignorant one and live in fantasy world if you think politicians would choose a better caliber of Senators. That’s cuckoo for coca puffs my friend. Corruption was one of the reasons the 17th was passed and it would 10 times worse today.

I almost wish it would happen just so you could SEE HOW WRONG YOU ARE. But luckily it not even on the table and only talked about on a few corners of the internet.

Back to this race that I’m glad the people will decide it because THE UTAH LEG WOULD REELECT Hatch, even if more than half of the Republicans were for the conservative the democrats would join with the RINOs and reelect Hatch. FAIL.


44 posted on 04/26/2012 11:08:06 AM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Impy; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj
Well said!

No way in this universe would I want the 17th Amendment repealed. It's nonsensical to even think it.

45 posted on 04/26/2012 12:08:38 PM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Really?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: backwoods-engineer; Impy

I could not care less about the “interests of the state” I care about liberty.

Devolving power from the feds to the states might be somewhat of a good thing, but limiting the power and scope of government at ALL LEVELS should be our ultimate goal.

If the goal is 50 smaller tyrannies, count me out.


46 posted on 04/26/2012 3:03:26 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy; Impy; Utah Girl; fieldmarshaldj

I don’t support repealing the 17th. Amendment at all and you’re all correct to oppose it, but I just want to get Liljenquist’s name out at every opportunity, just as I do with Richard Mourdock, Don Stenberg, Ted Cruz, and Jack Hoogendyk. With the nominee for POTUS likely to be a RINO, we need as many TEA Party types in Congress as possible.


47 posted on 04/26/2012 5:31:49 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (A liberal's compassion is limited to the size of other peoples' paychecks)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy; Libertarians
With such brilliant arguments, obviously voters are just too dumb to realize how much better things would be if career politicians choose their Senators for them!

Voters are quite smart which is why Libertarianism reamins a far right fringe as it should be. Both Anarchy & Tyranny are enemies of the people. I can see why you oppose returning to The balance that the founders put in place -a balance that was necessary after the utopian 'freedom' dream you envisioned failed miserably with the Articles of Confederation.

Yes, you choose to ignore history as far as the founding just as you choose to ignore history following the 17th Amendment. Those that ignore history are condemned to repeat it. How many political offices seats do Libertarians hold? Thank God the fringe you promote are impotent not only in argument but as well in history.

Take that and stick it in your irrelevant and uninformed yankee doodle cap.

Liberty my ass!

48 posted on 04/26/2012 5:34:25 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: GeronL; BillyBoy

Here here Geron! These “state’s rights” people must all live in Oklahoma cause that point is always lost on them.

Me, I have oppressive federal, state, county, and municipal governments.


49 posted on 04/26/2012 6:11:02 PM PDT by Impy (Don't call me red.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson