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South Florida Survivalists Prepare for the Apocalypse
Miami New Times ^ | Thursday, Apr 26 2012 | Stefan Kamph

Posted on 04/28/2012 11:14:17 PM PDT by nickcarraway

Jorge Villa was an exporter with an engineering degree from the University of Miami when Hurricane Andrew struck Kendall in 1992. As the storm arrived, he took his pregnant wife and the rest of his family to a warehouse space across from the Tamiami airport. It was a clear, breezy evening. He bolted the roll-down door, and the family laid out sleeping bags. By 1 a.m., he could hear the ventilation fans being ripped off the roof. By 2 a.m., it sounded like a freight train was running over the building. The rooms filled with water. His wife felt like she was going into labor. When he emerged, devastation was everywhere. Warehouses just like his were gone. Airplanes were scattered. He spent the next seven years of free time devising and constructing a shelter that could withstand hurricanes and virtually any other attack.

Today, the yard outside his warehouse is filled with 18-ton bunkers — octagons of white-painted concrete atop thick, square steel legs. They look virtually immovable. In the office, a child's drawing shows one of the UFO-like objects, with the name of his company, "U.S. Bunkers," scrawled along the top.

Villa will custom-manufacture one of these units for anywhere from $8,000 to $60,000. Options include beds, built-in toilets, air-conditioning hookups, toxic-gas filtration systems, gun turrets, rocket-propelled-grenade armor, video surveillance, plumbing, and snappy wood trim. Villa says he has sold "a couple dozen units" since starting manufacturing in 1999.

He cites growing interest in the shelters in the past few years, due to uncertainties about the economy. He has received calls from people concerned about the end of the Mayan calendar this coming December. The units he has sold are hidden in back yards around the state, away from the prying eyes of neighbors who would seek shelter in a time of need. Solutions like this appeal to a growing segment of people who are actively preparing for what they think is inevitable: devastation on a scale we have never known.

Some of them fit the stereotype of survivalists: the sometimes-camoed, always-armed fellows who wander in and out of gun shops and banter about calibers at the counter. But the image of the hostile sociopath hoarding guns under a tarp is an outdated one, and it's not good PR for those who want others to prepare. Survivalism has gone family-friendly, and its proponents call themselves "preppers."

Terrorism, alien attacks, the Mayan apocalypse — the typical doom-and-gloom scenarios for the end of the world — are on some preppers' minds. But a more immediate, and more unsettling, threat is the chance of economic failure. Preppers imagine a worthless U.S. dollar and all financial investments wiped away — and along with them all the rules governing behavior and property. And they, like Villa, will do what comes naturally: work to protect their families, whatever that might require.

Neal Wiseman can see his entire shop from where he stands, behind the glass display case at Dixie Guns and Ammo, but he can't see the future — not yet.

That doesn't mean he won't try. Wiseman is in his 30s, with a soldier's buzzcut and the friendly forward momentum of a high-school wrestling coach. A pair of iPhone earbuds frames his face as he greets customers.

It took a little faith for Wiseman to buy this business, tucked into a chainlink-fenced corner of a Pompano Beach public-storage park, with a partner in 2008. Sales are brisk, but the feds are always a distant threat, ready to shut him down for selling a stolen gun or failing to check registrations. The shop relies on hand-painted signs and word of mouth.

Wiseman used to sell residential real estate, but around 2005 he thought he saw home prices begin to flatten. "I got extremely defensive in my positioning," he says. He sold off 14 properties and became a police officer. "I thought things were going to really crash at that time, so I was wrong. But the situation is progressively getting more volatile."

He leads me into the back office, where he does his bookkeeping, and shuts the door. Bars cover the window. Settling into a swivel chair at his desk, Wiseman unpacks a rifle from a cardboard box and expertly pieces it together, aiming for a moment at a spot on the wall.

If society collapses, one thing is for sure: The glass counter and electronic cash register separating his business from his customers won't count for much. In a scenario where there is no money, no electricity, no doctors, and no food, the people who haven't prepared — the "zombies," as they're called in the prepper community — will swarm the preppers. Wiseman will need to find a new way of living, taking survival and protection into his own hands, leaving behind his reliance on the value of a dollar or a police officer's word. "For now, I'm still selling shit that other people made," he admits. "I haven't found my place in that society."

Wiseman moderates a group on Meetup.com called the South Florida Survivalist Network, Region 6. On the network's website, members of the group discuss various end-of-the-world scenarios (officially called "shit-hits-the-fan," or SHTF, in prepper lingo). He reads a quote from another prepper: "It always has been and always will be the power of the mind that has the most influence on the course of human events. Practice now, store now, think outside of your comfort zone. Each and every moment that our [electrical and communications] grid is up is a blessing."

We get up to leave, but we're trapped in the office. Not realizing we were still in the back, Wiseman's partner closed the shop and went home, locking us in. Before I fully register what has happened, Wiseman has unsheathed a machete. He uses it to jimmy the lock in a single motion.

At his home in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea, Wiseman has rigged pipes connected to gutters to allow rainwater to flow into plastic collection barrels. A fledgling vegetable garden blooms by the front door.

"I'm currently prepared to self-sustain for at least a full year, with no contact with the outside world, with a family of four and two dogs," he explains. Inside the garage, he keeps his "preps," or supplies. Instead of kayaks and bicycles, he stores food, fuel, tampons, and toilet paper. He negotiated with Publix managers for about a dozen buckets of vacuum-packed bulk grains and beans. A shelving unit holds rows of boxed pasta and canned fruits and vegetable. He has calculated exactly how many rations his family will need to stay alive.

His wife is a lawyer, he says, and she makes good money. She isn't nearly as involved in prepping, but she allows him to spend part of the family budget on items such as the tremendous olive-green military-surplus backpack that stands ready to go, bulging with food, weapons, and medical supplies. Wiseman would take it outside to practice walking with it, but he doesn't because he'd probably be stopped by cops. It's not difficult to imagine him shouldering the pack while walking alone down the middle of a street with fires raging on both sides and threats in every shadow.

Inside the house, Wiseman greets his two little sons, one of whom is old enough to babble excitedly. He gives candy to the younger boy because Mom isn't home yet, and turns on cartoons on the flat-screen TV set. The children's nanny says goodbye and leaves.

Wiseman surveys his territory. "After the collapse," he says, "I'm going to miss the nanny."

Here's his picture of a postcollapse world: "You'll have a million predators who own guns and have made no preps. Those are the people to guard against."

I arrive early one Saturday evening in February for the South Florida preppers' monthly meet-and-greet barbecue at Wiseman's shop. An older man named Mr. Ike grills hamburgers in a parking space, while families with children fix up plates and pop sodas under a canopy of camouflage netting.

Wiseman has been running a promotion: Buy 100 rounds of ammo and get an Army-surplus metal ammunition can, a bit smaller than a shoebox, free. Not only can these boxes be used to store bullets or other items, but they can also be fashioned into a rudimentary Faraday cage. He explains that many preppers fear an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) of destructive gamma waves, triggered by a solar flare or a nuclear weapon launched into the sky. Within minutes, such a pulse could fry our electrical and communications grids and destroy the integrated-circuit chips inside all unshielded electronics. But get one of these boxes, line it with foil, and pop an extra phone or radio inside: instant shield.

Outside the store, I find Chris Petrovich, a 42-year-old Peruvian-American man who wears a rosary underneath his usual tropical shirt. If Wiseman is the social coordinator for the preppers, Petrovich is their diplomat.

His inspiration comes not from a single disaster, but from an accretion of scenes that most people in South Florida spend their lives ignoring. He traveled through the world's poorest countries as a young man working for his father's agricultural consulting firm. The rainbow of stamps in his expired passport holds horror stories. He doesn't want to go into details, not at first.

Petrovich is also vague when describing his day job. From a nondescript office in Hollywood, he does business with developing nations, consulting on agricultural equipment sales. On the side, he also teaches daylong basic survival classes for a small fee, advertising through the Meetup site. Students often come to him nervous and overwhelmed, Petrovich says. He tells them two things: "Anyone can prepare, and it's not too late." It's almost like joining a church.

He is intent on showing me that many preppers these days defy the white-male stereotypes and that women in charge of their families' finances are the fastest-growing part of the group. He introduces me to Amy, a wide-eyed National Rifle Association member who recently moved here from California and learned about prepping from friends in the hunting and firearms communities. I also meet Zee, an African-American police officer in Miami who says she was inspired to prep by the mayhem she sees every day on the poorest streets of South Florida.

They're both friendly over burgers and beer, but guarded about the preparations they've made. Neither will return my calls later.

Then I meet a man in his 50s with longish gray hair, a sizable belly, and camouflage pants. He gives his name only as "Bowreeguard," making sure that's how I spell it. He says preparation was a fact of life for his family during winters in "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire.

Bowreeguard worked in the explosives industry there, and he and his friends were a hard-working, gun-toting bunch. In the '90s — when survivalists had been tarnished in the media by characters such as Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh, and Ted Kaczynski — they took some bulldozers out to the deep country and excavated a "fire base," where they buried nine school buses to form a semi-underground bunker. Or so Bowreeguard says — he won't tell where the compound is, and he doesn't have photographs.

They got a friend to drill a well in the middle of the bunker. They piled up food, communications lines, and many gallons of water. And on the evening of December 31, 1999, he and dozens of his cohorts gathered for the end. If not fireballs, they expected at least a total breakdown in communications because of the alleged Y2K computer bug. They expected ensuing looting for food and a glimpse of society unhinged.

The clocks flipped placidly to midnight, then 12:01. The only explosions on the news were fireworks. "When it was over and nothing happened, we were so disappointed," he admits. "The next day, we all went back to work."

Bowreeguard says he moved to Florida to work in the transportation industry ten days after the 9/11 attacks. He's been making bulk trips to Costco and wheeling a shopping cart up to his condominium under cover of darkness to build his stockpile. He says he has enough food to last him and his adult son for months, as well as a carefully curated selection of firearms. For drinking water, he keeps an eye on the swimming pool.

"When people ask me why I prepare, I tell them it's because I'm waiting for the zombies," Bowreeguard explains. "Then they laugh it off and don't look at you like you're such a nut-freak." When he gets into conversations with people about total anarchy that could result from a financial breakdown or a nuclear attack by China or North Korea, he tends to make people angry or terrified.

A clammy-looking severed pig's foot sits on a paper plate. A cheerful male voice pipes in: "Hello, prepper nation. This is Dr. Bones, a medical doctor and surgeon for more than 25 years, and together with the lovely Nurse Amy, we host The Doom and Bloom Show." The doctor's hand, filling out a yellowish latex glove, floats into the frame of the YouTube video. The fingers palpate the foot, which compresses like human flesh.

The doctor drapes a sheet of paper over the foot, revealing a single circle of skin. Soon he makes a slice with a #10 scalpel. There is no blood, and he pulls the skin apart to reveal the tendon beneath. He injects the wound with lidocaine, soaking and swelling it. He opens a package of 2-0 silk suture thread, connected to a needle. He uses forceps to lift a flap of skin and drives the suture through.

Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy, a married couple, are two local preppers and teachers with a national reach through an Internet radio show, books they've written, a seminar they cohost, and the YouTube channel (drbonespodcast). As he says in the video, they weren't always preppers: He worked under another name as an obstetrician, delivering hundreds of babies into the cruel world through modern medicine. Amy stood by him as a nurse and midwife during much of his practice.

And like anyone dealing with sensitive matters of life and death, they witnessed their share of distress. When Hurricane Andrew hit, the doctor recalls, he rounded up a few of his late-term pregnant patients in a single hospital room and waited out the storm with them. Through a shaking window, he watched a concrete bus bench topple over and then blow away.

Almost a decade later, on the morning of September 11, 2001, the doctor was delivering a baby by cesarean section at Memorial Hospital West in Pembroke Pines as the World Trade Center towers collapsed. The baby was fine, but due to an error by a shell-shocked nurse who had heard of the attacks, the doctor says, a sponge was left inside the patient. The mother brought a malpractice suit against the doctor and the hospital, which ended in a large settlement. The doctor, who retains his medical license in good stead, retired from his practice a few years later and has since become a prominent teacher in the prepping world. Dr. Bones operates mostly on pigs' feet these days, but if he and Amy are right about the way the world is going, this work could be just as important.

Approaching their home in Weston, I stop at the entrance to a lush gated community and hand my driver's license to the unarmed guard. A fountain trickles in front of the gatehouse. I drive around a large cul-de-sac to a house with a giant portico and entryway. Amy answers the door.

She carries herself with the abundant tenderness of her nurse's trade. She looks younger than her age of 46.

"Beautiful neighborhood," I say.

"Yeah. Except we don't know any of our neighbors."

Nurse Amy sounds a little sad about this typical suburban malaise, but their isolation is also intentional. She and her husband have stockpiled a year of food in the garage and maintain an experimental "survival garden" with edible food, curative herbs, and a tilapia pond. They also have enough medical supplies and knowledge to perform virtually any procedure on the fly. Like other preppers, they're worried that if their identities and location were revealed, they would be the target of aggressive zombies in a collapse. They publish under the pen names of Joseph and Amy Alton.

Their latest book, The Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook, contains 400 pages of surprisingly comprehensive medical advice on everything from burn treatment to insulin shock. The guide contains a hefty disclaimer about how it's illegal to be one's own doctor, but it also imagines a world where that's the only option.

Their life after the hospital is calm and domestic, filled with old knowledge. Amy leads me out to the garden. Under the expansive screened-in pool area, a pepper vine climbs to the ceiling and a pump vibrates in an ornate stucco pond that's filled with tilapia. Tomato plants compete for sunlight nearby. Most things in the garden are edible, she explains, but they wouldn't sustain the couple for long in a true collapse. This garden is mostly for experimentation and instruction through their YouTube videos.

We sit down at the table on the patio where the couple hosts the weekly Doom and Bloom Survival Hour Internet radio show on blogtalkradio.com, speaking with call-in guests and sharing tips for gardening, medicine, and general self-sufficiency. Dr. Bones tells me that their library is filled with 19th-century medical books, from a time when people often had to take care of medical emergencies themselves.

"These things should just be normal," Amy says. "People who don't prep — I hope they're the unusual ones."

The couple seems very normal, actually, right down to their little marital idiosyncrasies. They are affectionately competitive and often cut off one another's sentences. But do they really, truly believe the world as we know it is coming to an end?

"No," Amy says. But, she adds, "a slow economic collapse is what you're seeing now."

"The likelihood of any particular disaster is very small," the doctor interrupts, "but what's the likelihood that none of them will happen in your lifetime?"

He pauses. "Our dream is to die at age 100 with our grandchildren whispering in our ears: 'Hey, Gramps, what the heck are we going to do with all these supplies?'"

When the shit hits the fan, not much will happen, because there will be no electricity to power it. So the filthy fan will just sit there in the rising heat, along with the rest of our old conveniences, rendered useless in a future that most of us have failed to properly imagine.

It might begin with something small and nonviolent: For example, the value of the dollar begins to tumble steadily. You go to the bank to get some cash so you can convert what savings you have into material investments. When you get to the bank, you see a long line of cars at the drive-thru. On the radio, you listen to news of impending war with a Middle Eastern state backed by China, an expanding global competitor in arms and trade. Oil transport routes have been closed off in the conflict. A few of the waiting customers have turned off their engines to save gas.

When it's your turn, you speak into the intercom, asking to withdraw your balance. The teller informs you that the bank has placed a $5,000-per-day limit on withdrawals. They're trying to keep some cash on hand despite its plummeting value. The teller offers you a high-interest loan instead. You drive off angrily. Most people with bank accounts are irate.

"If I really thought the end was right here, I wouldn't be here right now," Petrovich, the prepping evangelist, says as we sit on the patio next to the swimming pool at his house in Hollywood. He has just finished outlining something like the above scenario for me as we drink cold beers and eat rice and beans with gumbo. It's Mardi Gras evening, and he's having some friends and family over. We're sated by the good meal and talking quietly as the light leaves the sky. His mother stands in the doorway, watching as children run and laugh while circling the pool on a bicycle.

Petrovich has a sense of humor about his fire-and-brimstone scenarios. "If there is a zombie invasion, I hope it's the slow ones," he says, refusing to crack a full smile. His favorite TV show is The Walking Dead. He quotes Dr. Strangelove and has a robust library of mass-market paperbacks.

For him, as for most preppers, the thrill is in making oneself stronger. Like any obsession, it's endlessly demanding. The more you prepare, the more you realize how unprepared you are, so it becomes easy not to do anything. "A lot of people just sit there in place and die in place," he says. "Prepping will give you confidence. Besides, look at all the great things I've learned."

If a collapse really happens, Petrovich, who says he's been prepping for 25 years, will call the network of fellow preppers he trusts with his life and family. Then he'll go to the secret location where he keeps food, weapons, gas masks, and everything else he needs for more than a year.

State authorities will activate the Florida Interoperability Network, a coordinated system of state and local radio frequencies that can broadcast signals once the traditional equipment goes down. Local governments will use "several caches of portable radio equipment in various locations throughout the state," according to an official emergency plan, and fire up eight trailers with 100-foot antennas, generators, and broadcasting gear. Volunteers with ARES, the Amateur Radio Emergency Service, will fire up their ham radios and tap into a government-sanctioned plan for disseminating information.

What happens over the following weeks will look familiar to Petrovich, who has seen glimpses of humans in crisis during his travels in his 25-year career.

There was Durban, South Africa, in 1997. He knew a decent Indian place and went to get some curry. At once, he faced a riot of angry Zulu nationalists parading down the street, brandishing short spears and clubs. He saw them put a tire around a man's neck and light it on fire. Six or seven police officers around him began shooting randomly into the crowd.

Sierra Leone, 1998: The local police and military were stealing food from aid deliveries, and refugees scrambled viciously for sustenance. Petrovich witnessed what people look like when they're truly hungry.

And there was New Orleans in 2005. For the first time in decades, the nation confronted a nationalized horror of deprivation following Hurricane Katrina. Americans saw the system fail. But, Petrovich explains, "the people in the Lower Ninth Ward knew that somewhere outside the city, the government was still there. Now take that away."

Petrovich is likely to stay in town after a disaster — while the humans around him go into starvation mode, the canals flood with fetid water, and mold takes over untended houses. The preppers in his personal group will have enough gasoline to escape. Petrovich has helped them cache extra fuel and food, stashed in public-storage units and underground, at intervals on an 800-to-1,200-mile path out of Florida. Amid darkness and chaos, skirting burning sugarcane fields and accidents and roadblocks, they'll drive from cache to cache toward a secret inland hiding spot, exhausting the last available remnants of the petroleum age.

The government may well implement an evacuation plan, under a federal policy that was heavily revamped after the botched evacuation of Katrina victims. In short, evacuees will be herded out of town on the same three major routes that South Floridians use every day: I-95, I-75, and the turnpike.

Petrovich knows that if he stays — hell, or if he goes — he'll encounter people with whom he doesn't agree, preppers of a different political stripe. Anarchist hippies, communists, gangsters. He doesn't mind, as long as they're prepared. His response to them during his decades of prepping has been cordial, with a simple acknowledgment:

"I guess I'll see you out there."

Darkness falls on his patio, and I'm one of the last guests to leave. On my way out, Petrovich hands me two DVDs of zombie-apocalypse movies and two books: one about a complete halt in oil production and the other, One Second After, about an EMP attack launched from container ships. They're some of his favorites, and he wants them back the next time we meet.

He also gives me a tomato seedling he dug up from his garden and transplanted into a 20-ounce McCafé cup, a gift meant to be a small step toward my own self-sufficiency. I drive home with it in the cup holder — a tiny, living thing, the last step in an unbroken chain of growth and germination that stretches back millions of years, persistent against all the odds.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: prepperping; preppers; prepping; selfreliance; shtf; survialists; survivalping; teotwawki
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1 posted on 04/28/2012 11:14:23 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

The only Apocalypses being prepared for before Obama were those of our enemies


2 posted on 04/28/2012 11:35:47 PM PDT by tsowellfan
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To: nickcarraway
Hmm.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 16:25
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:33

3 posted on 04/28/2012 11:41:35 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: nickcarraway; Kartographer
A Doctor's Thoughts on Antibiotics, Expiration Dates, and TEOTWAWKI, by Dr. Bones
4 posted on 04/28/2012 11:53:19 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
The Barter Value Of Skills
5 posted on 04/28/2012 11:57:46 PM PDT by blam
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To: nickcarraway
South FloridaMillions of American Survivalists Prepare for the Apocalypse Race Riots and Martial Law

Fixed it.

6 posted on 04/29/2012 12:31:57 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Ich habe keinen Konig aber Gott)
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To: Olog-hai

That’s the beauty of this country, we’re free to believe what we want and live that way as well, at least for the moment.


7 posted on 04/29/2012 1:57:14 AM PDT by exnavy (May the Lord bless and keep our troops.)
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To: Olog-hai
Um, I'm pretty sure your Biblical quotes are inapposate to prepping. They speak to a deeper issue, to wit those who foresake Him to save themselves are lost...
8 posted on 04/29/2012 2:02:00 AM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: Olog-hai; nickcarraway

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. — Matthew 16:25
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. — Luke 17:33

Spirited: My thoughts often meditate on the meaning of those particular verses, especially with regard to these times.

As for the preppers, it seems to me that only with hardened hearts can they feed themselves while all around them are those who are starving. Additionally, even if they manage to hold off marauding “zombies” as they call them, their fortresses will collapse under the fire-power of opportunistic invasive forces such as the Mexican or even the Chinese army.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.


9 posted on 04/29/2012 2:03:55 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish
As for the preppers, it seems to me that only with hardened hearts can they feed themselves while all around them are those who are starving. Additionally, even if they manage to hold off marauding “zombies” as they call them, their fortresses will collapse under the fire-power of opportunistic invasive forces such as the Mexican or even the Chinese army.

Yes, you're right: It's much better to be unprepared.

It's better to go thirsty, or even watch your loved ones slowly die of dehydration (or dysentery after drinking contaminated water) than to store potable drinking water.

And in the event of an "opportunistic" invasion, your chances of survival are much better if you have no plan, no buddy network, no shelter, no weapons cache, and no supplies.

Regards,

10 posted on 04/29/2012 2:56:07 AM PDT by alexander_busek
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To: blam

Good stuff. I have the Fish-Mox, and even tried it once when I thought that I was getting sick. It didn’t seem to affect me either way...not harm, but no improvement - but maybe because I had a virus rather than an infection. But I like the fact that nearly all pills are good for at least 8 years. I’ve been stocking prescriptions for a while, and now use one that is about 2 years old every day (i.e., I have a two-year supply, so, of course, I use the oldest first).


11 posted on 04/29/2012 3:07:27 AM PDT by BobL
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To: Olog-hai

A prudent man foresees the difficulty ahead and prepares for them. The fool goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

Not preparing for things is not biblical.


12 posted on 04/29/2012 3:17:51 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: alexander_busek; spirited irish

Some believe Christians shouldn’t store up any wealth. Taken to the extreme, that would mean no food or even shelter. That would certainly make one dependent on God for their daily bread, but is it scriptural?

I don’t believe so. I think scripture teaches us to put God first, keeping in mind that there is no real security in silver, gold, or even ammo (sorry gun lovers). All of it could disappear in an instant despite one’s best laid plans.

Make peace with the Lord first, then be a faithful steward with what you have, being both thankful for it and generous with it to those in need. It makes little sense to prep for everything including a zombie apocalypse while forgetting to prepare for the ultimate test.


13 posted on 04/29/2012 3:29:55 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: spirited irish; alexander_busek

“...their fortresses will collapse under the fire-power of opportunistic invasive forces such as the Mexican or even the Chinese army”

You making a precise predication as to what’s ahead. Maybe, maybe not. Neither Argentina nor Russia, which both had currency collapses, had any external attack to deal with. Sure, it may be different in our case, but maybe not...

And if we follow Argentina’s or Russia’s path, it sure would be nice to have things like paper towels around and a way to purify water, rather than having to hope the truck comes and not having any other option.


14 posted on 04/29/2012 3:32:36 AM PDT by BobL
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To: spirited irish
As for the preppers, it seems to me that only with hardened hearts can they feed themselves while all around them are those who are starving.

Those that feed themselves won't be a logistics burden on an emergency system that may be stressed trying to feed those starving.

So non-preppers are the hard-hearted, selfish ones, taking food that could be used by the needy. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

/johnny

15 posted on 04/29/2012 3:49:06 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“Those that feed themselves won’t be a logistics burden on an emergency system that may be stressed trying to feed those starving.”

Spirited: The apocalyptic vision under discussion foresees the collapse of America’s infrastructure, meaning there will be no power, no law enforcement, no transportation of food, no medical care, and so on.

“So non-preppers are the hard-hearted, selfish ones, taking food that could be used by the needy. If you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem.”

Spirited: Your conclusion erroneously assumes that all “non-preppers” will react in the same way, that is “taking food that could be used for the needy.”

In the first place, the ‘needy’ will be all non-preppers, none excluded. In the second place, a percentage of non-preppers will resort to violence, including murder and even cannibalism in their quest for survival. It is this group that preppers most fear.

And finally, there will be non-preppers who will choose not to steal, murder, etc. on behalf of saving their own lives.

Stalin’s man-made famine foreshadows the apocalyptic vision under discussion. In one way or another, all of the intended victims had been ‘preppers” in that they were provisioned.

Having forcibly removed and/or destroyed and/or polluted in some manner all food-sources, water (wells, etc), livestock, grain, medical supplies, etc., two groups of people emerged. Those who chose to steal, murder, and even cannibalize other human beings in order to save their own lives and those who chose not to.


16 posted on 04/29/2012 4:35:59 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish
The article started with a story about a hurricane. We aren't Soviet Russia in the 1920s.

And brother, you are preparing, one way or another. You are preparing to be part of the problem, or part of the solution. Whether you admit it or not.

You sound like part of the problem. One that doesn't like people to prepare to be part of the solution. It's the crab in the bucket syndrome. Pulling down those that would escape.

/johnny

17 posted on 04/29/2012 4:43:57 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: BobL

If the SHTF, preppers will be the ones best prepared to help others. One can’t give food, water and shelter to the needy unless one has them, right? Are we supposed to just walk through life unprepared for anything beyond today? If that was the case, why even plant crops? After all, we might not even be here to harvest them. No. That seems pretty foolish to me.

While it’s certainly true that God can take care of all of our needs, what makes someone think our minds and bodies aren’t the means God has given us to do so? And, again, how is someone supposed to help their brothers and sisters if they themselves are destitute?


18 posted on 04/29/2012 4:49:14 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: spirited irish
collapse of America’s infrastructure, meaning there will be no power, no law enforcement, no transportation of food, no medical care, and so on.

Even if you were correct about the apocalyptic scenario, your assumptions of no power, no law enforcement, no transportation, no medical care are naive, to say the least.

That's like saying that roads won't be cleared after a winter storm until the government gets there.

We are a self-governing people, in large measure, and actually do better with government out of the way, so I would say that there will be some power, some medical care, certainly law enforcement, if of only a frontier type, and many other things, because people can do those things on their own, locally.

/johnny

19 posted on 04/29/2012 4:51:48 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: BobL

My prediction is based on what is known about Transnational Progressive Socialists and their desire that America as we know it be destroyed in order that a global world order be realized.

Considering the evils committed by past (i.e., Soviets) and present utopians on behalf of their longed for earthly paradise it makes sense that once America falls into planned-anarchy that the next part of the plan involves an invading army.

Some years ago, Kissinger predicted this very scenario. And if this proves to be the case, then preppers will be forcibly overcome. Their bunkers will not survive the fire-power used against them.


20 posted on 04/29/2012 4:52:09 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish
Big difference between the ground where the Soviets operated during the revolution and the ground of America today. The peasants were not armed, educated, and most had no military training. The opposite is true of America today.

No invading army can stand in America. Heck, they wouldn't live through Chicago or Detroit, to get to the red-necks in the hills of the south.

/johnny

21 posted on 04/29/2012 5:00:11 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

We are a self-governing people

Spirited: To be self-governed is to be self-disciplined, meaning that one’s disordered passions, appetites, and emotions do not control one’s thoughts, words, and deeds.

That increasing numbers of Americans at every level of society are “out-of-control” rather than the reverse is everywhere evident. And when the out-of-control outnumber the self-disciplined the idea of a self-governing people is dead and must be replaced with tyranny.


22 posted on 04/29/2012 5:01:09 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: CitizenUSA

“We’re we supposed to just walk through life unprepared for anything beyond today?”

There’s a difference between saying that I understand something and saying that I support something. For example, I understand the Norway gunman - he would be jailed (over there) for speaking out against Islam and immigration, and he would be jailed for killing people...in that case killing got him the most bang for the buck. But that sure as heck doesn’t mean I support the killings.

In this case, and maybe I read into it wrong, I saw it as frustration that a bunch of spoiled brats want protection from the militarily that they are continually trying their hardest to decimate. I can see why someone might be frustrated.


23 posted on 04/29/2012 5:07:39 AM PDT by BobL
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To: spirited irish
Americans at every level of society are “out-of-control”

Wrong. Perhaps in liberal hell-holes within the nation, but not everywhere in America. You have a very limited and pessimistic outlook.

We ARE still mostly self-governing over large areas of the country. Or things wouldn't get done.

My appetites do drive my deeds. Or I wouldn't plant a garden so that I could eat.

Your logic is muddled, and unfit for a real world.

Prepare for success, or prepare for failure. That's the choice.

/johnny

24 posted on 04/29/2012 5:08:00 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: nickcarraway

How can I get Nurse Amy to take my temperature......


25 posted on 04/29/2012 5:30:16 AM PDT by njslim (St)
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To: spirited irish

spirited irish: “Their bunkers will not survive the fire-power used against them.”

Do you not realize how big the United States really is? There’s no military on the planet big enough and equipped to take down a well armed, hostile indigenous population as large as ours. We couldn’t do it Iraq. The Soviets couldn’t do it in Afghanistan. I suppose a nation could use thousands of nukes to pacify America, but there wouldn’t be much left worth taking over afterward. Even if a nation could take over the US intact, why would they want to in the first place? Wouldn’t it be much easier to destroy us economically than militarily?

BTW, before you say we won Iraq, we were losing the war until the population shifted their support to us.


26 posted on 04/29/2012 5:37:18 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: CitizenUSA
Take a look at the poster's history. He's not well known for logic and reality.

Just another crab dragging down those that would do something about a situation.

Discussing logistics for an invasion of CONUS is a waste of time. Took me a while to figure it out.

You are correct. There are more hunters in just Michigan than any army on earth can field. And they are trained to take out a man-sized target at a distance.

/johnny

27 posted on 04/29/2012 5:44:25 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: njslim
Contract Ebola. ;)

/johnny

28 posted on 04/29/2012 5:47:42 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

JRF: “Or I wouldn’t plant a garden so that I could eat.”

You planted a garden? How dare you! Don’t you know you’re supposed to wait for ravens to deliver dinner? What are you, some sort of crazy prepper?


29 posted on 04/29/2012 5:48:11 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: CitizenUSA
LOL! must be.

I give thanks for my daily bread, every day. But if I don't bake it, I won't have it. Some folks have a problem understanding that concept.

/johnny

30 posted on 04/29/2012 5:50:49 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I think the sad thing is some people would rather not prepare at all. Natural and man made disasters do occur. It doesn’t have to be nationwide. Even worse, it doesn’t take much to prepare for the most likely disruptions. What’s the harm of keeping some extra jugs of water, a can of gas, and maybe a week or two of emergency rations on hand? What about basic medical supplies, like antiseptic and bandages? That’s more than practical. I call it being responsible. You can’t help others if you can’t help yourself in an emergency. Like you wrote, not prepping likely means one will be part of the problem rather than the solution.


31 posted on 04/29/2012 6:03:10 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

JRF: “I give thanks for my daily bread, every day. But if I don’t bake it, I won’t have it.”

Exactly! And you can be thankful the Lord gave you the oven to bake it in, the skills to earn the money for the oven, the gas (or electric) company to provide the energy, etc. I think the article mentioned how incredibly blessed we are to have the grid. Every day we wake up, turn on the lights, grab a cold beverage from the fridge, and bake our daily bread is an incredible, miraculous blessing! Thank God.


32 posted on 04/29/2012 6:08:57 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: BobL
I’ve been stocking prescriptions for a while, and now use one that is about 2 years old every day (i.e., I have a two-year supply, so, of course, I use the oldest first).

What's the shelf life of unrefigerated insulin?

I don't take it but my wife does.

33 posted on 04/29/2012 6:09:40 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (Romney vs. Obama? One of them has to lose, rejoice in that fact, whichever it is.)
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To: CitizenUSA
My big disaster happened in Oct 2008, with the stock market crash. I lived for almost 2 years on stored food, forage, and barter. It kept me off the dole.

I posted a thread a few weeks ago about a neighbor's kitchen fire, and how my preps worked out in that situation.

You are correct, it is sad, but some folks not only don't want to prep, they want to tear down those that do. That is not just sad, it's twisted and I believe, fundamentally evil, regardless of the moral trappings they hang on their justifications.

/johnny

34 posted on 04/29/2012 6:10:49 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Graybeard58
Not long. I'm no expert, but I know there are resources out there for prepping for those that require insulin.

Maybe someone can answer your question better than I.

/johnny

35 posted on 04/29/2012 6:13:16 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Olog-hai
Hmm. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. — Matthew 16:25 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. — Luke 17:33

How does that equate with the "apocalypse" scenarios this guy is defending against? Please keep things in context, lest those who are new to/ignorant of the Bible get the wrong impression. There's a BIG difference in preserving your life by denying Jesus and by thwarting nature and men who would do you harm.

36 posted on 04/29/2012 6:13:34 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: CitizenUSA

I’m closing in on the big 7-0. My wife and I are entirely dependent on a cocktail of meds that we have to take daily to keep on keeping on. I’m lightly armed, handguns only, with a few hundred rounds of .38 and 9mm ammo. My wife hates guns. We can store several hundred pounds of canned goods, filtered water and tp in the garage. Any hope of hopping in my wife’s newer Mazda and heading up I-95 toward West Palm Beach would be like trying to drive in a parking lot. Ditto The Turnpike and US441. If I were to go further west, I’d need a swamp buggy. My town has had a spate of carjackings and home invasions which I’m sure would deteriorate should there be a breakdown in law and order during a natural or man-made disaster. I guess the best way to cope in such a situation would be collective security. I don’t know many of my neighbors, but there are a few cars in our gated community with military decals so it might not be a bad idea to meet with fellow vets and get organized. One young fellow up the street is a Marine veteran of the battle of Fallujah. I just had a defibrillator placed in my chest so I’m no longer capable of crawling around, playing commando. I just hope nothing like this happens.


37 posted on 04/29/2012 6:14:27 AM PDT by Ax
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To: Ax
I just hope nothing like this happens.

Amen. Hard times suck.

I am blessed that I'm back in the neighborhood that I grew up in, and know pretty much everybody. And every tree and fence and garden in the surrounding area.

/johnny

38 posted on 04/29/2012 6:25:50 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: spirited irish
Just one small problem with your philosophy.

If everyone decided to be like you and make no preparations and just scrounge off those that did, who are they going to scrounge off of?

39 posted on 04/29/2012 6:29:27 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: nickcarraway

I don’t want to sound like I just came in on a load of Zucchini but just what the hell is going to cause this dooms day?


40 posted on 04/29/2012 6:29:57 AM PDT by Rappini (Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: BobL

Doxycycline has a 2 year shelf life. After that, it can turn toxic. Other tetracyclines may be even more toxic after expiration. Expired tetracyclines damage the kidneys.

FWIW, I was once told by a physician that even freeze dried penicillin had a 3-year shelf life.

The pharmacists/clinicians here can comment with more authority.


41 posted on 04/29/2012 6:42:01 AM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: Rappini

It doesn’t have to be the end of the world. Prepping is simply being prepared. In mishap prevention, planners evaluate not only the likelihood of something happening but the degree of harm that would result. All out nuclear war, for example, would be very, very bad, but it’s also highly improbable. A person could spend millions $ trying to prepare for nukes, but I daresay it would be foolish to do so, especially when there are far more likely events.

You can buy a couple 5 gallon reusable water jugs for less than $50 on Amazon.com. This summer, a water main ruptured in my neighborhood. Years ago, an ice storm took down my power for over a week. Those are likely events that are very easy to prepare for.


42 posted on 04/29/2012 6:48:15 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: blam

Serveral of Dr. Bones articles on SHTF Medicine is included in my preparedness manual.You can download it at:

http://tomeaker.com/kart/Preparedness1j.pdf

NOTE! THIS IS A FREE DOWNLOAD. I DO NOT MAKE ONE CENT OFF MY PREPAREDNESS MANUAL!

For those of you who haven’t started already it’s time to prepare almost past time maybe. You needed to be stocking up on food guns, ammo, basic household supplies like soap, papergoods, cleaning supplies, good sturdy clothes including extra socks, underwear and extra shoes and boots, a extra couple changes of oil and filters for your car, tools, things you buy everyday start buying two and put one up.

As the LDS say “When the emergency is upon us the time for preparedness has past.”

Or as the bible says: A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
NIV Proverbs 22:3

Lastly this for the doubters and the scoffers.

“There is no greater disaster than to underestimate danger.

Underestimation can be fatal.”


43 posted on 04/29/2012 6:56:13 AM PDT by Kartographer ("We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.")
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To: Ax

Ax, you do the best you can. We are all dependent on each other to some degree. A SHTF scenario won’t change that. In fact, it makes that dependence all the more clear I think.

There was thread here a week or so ago about bugging out, i.e. escaping into the wilderness during an emergency. The premise was that this is foolish in most cases, because very, very few people have the skills necessary to survive in the wild. Hunkering down in one’s own neighborhood with like minded neighbors is probably a better plan in most cases.


44 posted on 04/29/2012 6:57:59 AM PDT by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: appalachian_dweller; OldPossum; DuncanWaring; VirginiaMom; CodeToad; goosie; kalee; ...

Preppers’ PING!


45 posted on 04/29/2012 6:58:20 AM PDT by Kartographer ("We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.")
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To: JRandomFreeper; Kartographer
"So non-preppers are the hard-hearted, selfish ones, taking food that could be used by the needy. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

Expect to hear more of these sorts of things...It's the 43% who presently pay no taxes, mostly won't work and are already depending on you who will be the helpless victims when TSHTF.

It is said that when the Spanish brought the potato to Europe from Peru that the European population exploded and their periodic bouts of famine and starvation mostly ended.

When the potato virus killed the Irish potato crop (I know the English had a hand) in the middle of the 1800's, 1.5 million Irish starved to death and 1.5 million emmigrated.

Ireland is still the only country in the world that has a lower population today than they had in 1840.

I worry that something like that will happen here when TSHTF.

46 posted on 04/29/2012 7:11:42 AM PDT by blam
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To: Graybeard58
"What's the shelf life of unrefigerated insulin?

Use this refrigeration method when the electricity is out:

How to Make a Pot in a Pot Refrigerator

Get your pots now.

47 posted on 04/29/2012 7:19:49 AM PDT by blam
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To: nickcarraway

http://www.doomandbloom.net/2012/02/free-medical-guides.html


48 posted on 04/29/2012 7:24:09 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas gerit ;-{)
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To: CitizenUSA; Ax
"There was thread here a week or so ago about bugging out, i.e. escaping into the wilderness during an emergency. The premise was that this is foolish in most cases, because very, very few people have the skills necessary to survive in the wild. Hunkering down in one’s own neighborhood with like minded neighbors is probably a better plan in most cases."

Here.

The Fallacy Of Bugging Out – Are You Prepared To Be A Refugee?

49 posted on 04/29/2012 7:27:03 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Thanks, Blam. I read this article a few days ago and it pretty much describes my situation. I’ve been in the bush in Africa, SE Asia and South/Central America, but that’s been a few years ago. I’m not prepared to live off the land and try and cope without my 55” flat screet TV, laptop and a good supply of merlot to be consumed in my AC house. I guess the answer is just BLOAT and be prepared for the ultimate judgement.


50 posted on 04/29/2012 7:45:29 AM PDT by Ax
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