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Document links Warren to Cherokees (11th hour paperwork?)
Masslive.com ^ | May 1, 2012 | AP

Posted on 05/01/2012 7:35:50 AM PDT by libertarian27

Edited on 05/01/2012 7:38:26 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

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Sure.....
1 posted on 05/01/2012 7:36:01 AM PDT by libertarian27
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To: libertarian27

PROBABLY FOUND IT NEXT TO Zer0’s BC.


2 posted on 05/01/2012 7:38:01 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Paladin2

Christopher Child is the guy who produced the Obama BC.


3 posted on 05/01/2012 7:44:11 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: libertarian27

Aren’t we all 1/32-something?


4 posted on 05/01/2012 7:44:11 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: libertarian27

Am I 1/somethingth African-American since human beings originated in Africa? Can I claim minority status if so?


5 posted on 05/01/2012 7:46:52 AM PDT by golf lover (going)
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To: libertarian27
She can end all the speculation for about $200.


6 posted on 05/01/2012 7:47:44 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: ltc8k6

Yes and we know the name of the person from whom we derive it. I am 1/32 Swiss from the Remmick branch of my Family Tree. Timothy Remmick was at the Battle of Bunker Hill with Phinney’s 8th Kittery ME. Do you know what that counts for on an application? Absolutely nothing, unless I want to join a Minuteman re-enacted group.


7 posted on 05/01/2012 7:48:33 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: ltc8k6

Yes and we know the name of the person from whom we derive it. I am 1/32 Swiss from the Remmick branch of my Family Tree. Timothy Remmick was at the Battle of Bunker Hill with Phinney’s 8th Kittery ME. Do you know what that counts for on an application? Absolutely nothing, unless I want to join a Minuteman re-enacted group.


8 posted on 05/01/2012 7:49:07 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Paladin2
Don't be silly. The comments on the original story tend toward the idea that 1/32 blood quantum doesn't or shouldn't count.

For the Cherokee and many other Indians FORMAL MEMBERSHIP (usually attested to with a little blue card) counts on two things ~ the appearance of 1 or more ancestors in the Dawes Rolls, and at least 'any', 1/4 or 1/16 Cherokee ancestry (the blood quantum) depending on which "band'.

It's up to the US Government ~ not commenters and not popular belief. http://www.tngenweb.org/tnfirst/recognized.html

9 posted on 05/01/2012 7:49:43 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libertarian27

The closest Warren got to a real Cherokee was when she rode in one.


10 posted on 05/01/2012 7:52:48 AM PDT by AU72
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To: libertarian27

Here they are...right next to the original Bush National Guard documents!


11 posted on 05/01/2012 7:56:03 AM PDT by N. Theknow (Kennedys=Can't drive, can't ski, can't fly, can't skipper a boat, but they know what's best for you.)
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To: libertarian27
Even if true, it still doesn't reverse the fact that when she was claiming American Indian ancestry for getting a job at Harvard she had no evidence of it nor any history of discrimination against her or any known ancestor which would "justify" her claim for special affirmative action treatment.
12 posted on 05/01/2012 7:57:07 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (You only have three billion heartbeats in a lifetime.How many does the government claim as its own?)
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To: libertarian27

I liked what one commenter said. Scott Brown should declare himself 1/32 African-American.


13 posted on 05/01/2012 7:57:27 AM PDT by Clock King (Ellisworth Toohey was right: My head's gonna explode.)
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To: massgopguy
Later on your ancestor or his heirs or survivors received land patents for territory in the West ~ and they'd go there, cut down the trees, open up the land, raise up a cabin, eat meat every day ~ yes EVERY DAY ~ and praise God for having created such a wonderful land.

Ever read this; http://books.google.com/books?id=vIkMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA379&lpg=PA379&dq=%22timothy+remmick%22&source=bl&ots=IiMxD0PEz4&sig=vfZaskWJrYtIfH5H2AkvJw6RYD8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gPmfT9WnLoLe2AXy1rWxAg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22timothy%20remmick%22&f=false ?

GOOGLE tells me I"ve looked up this Remmick guy before.

14 posted on 05/01/2012 7:57:57 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libertarian27

So what. My wife’s roots trace directly back through the Red Bollings to Pochohantas, her 13th great-grandmother, and her maternal grandfather was a full blooded Cherokee.

One of my great-grandmothers from the 1600s was the daughter of a chief of the Turtle clan of the Mohawk nation.

Many americans have direct ties and not just links to indian ancestors. It is not any real claim to fame or political advantage.


15 posted on 05/01/2012 7:59:59 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: KarlInOhio
IF her great great grandmother was on the Dawes Rolls then that ancestor was certainly subject to injustice based on race.

She or her parents and/or grandparents would likely have been involved in the forced sale of their lands in the South and their relocation like to Oklahoma.

We shall see.

16 posted on 05/01/2012 8:00:49 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libertarian27

My instinct is to call bull and unfortunately for them they have tread onto my turf here. I’ll get back to y’all later today on this.


17 posted on 05/01/2012 8:01:20 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (My tagline is in the shop.)
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To: KarlInOhio

isn’t cherokee one of those “catchall” tribal relations? IOW since there was so much intermarriage a claim can be stated for just about anyone. (as long as you don’t also claim a piece of the casinos)


18 posted on 05/01/2012 8:01:54 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: longtermmemmory

Its been reported her ancestors were part of the Fugarwee tribe.


19 posted on 05/01/2012 8:09:31 AM PDT by ully2
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To: libertarian27

I’m Native American, too, according to Romney.

Tribe of Levi.


20 posted on 05/01/2012 8:10:25 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: libertarian27
Chances are better than 50-50 that anyone who can trace their ancestry back to frontier America will have at least some Native American heritage.

A few reasons for this are:

  1. Shortage of women among white frontier populations versus a surplus among Native frontier populations. The former was due to the fact that white men were the first to push westward in search of land or wealth to be mined. The Native American population either lost men resisting this expansion or offered surplus females as marriage partners in an attempt to gain gain alliances or trading partners. Much as both major parties now try to outdo each other in slobbering over the Hispanic voters.
  2. Relative isolation and small pool of available marriage partners, or the same reason you will find virtually everyone related in isolated communities ranging from West Virginia mining towns to Rocky Mountain ranch towns. This was perfectly normal until the advent of the automobile and its widespread use, starting in the 1950's-- a relatively recent period of American History.
  3. Cherokee heritage, in particular, is the most common of Native American heritage. As the major one of the five civilized tribes, Cherokee were clever adapters at producing a written language which became the norm for the tribe in a single generation, using the U.S. court system to resist expulsion, retreating to the hills of the Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky when that failed, then ultimately to Oklahoma.
  4. All five of the so-called civilized tribes (the other four being the Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw and Seminole) backed the south in our Civil War and, as a result, had to adapt quickly to survive. One of the quickest ways was intermarriage with the white and black populations in the southeast. The hit network series Who Do You Think You Are pretty much verifies that some Native American DNA is widespread in the bloodlines of almost everyone who can trace their ancestry to the frontier era for the aforementioned reasons. In fact, absence is more the exception than the rule.

21 posted on 05/01/2012 8:11:19 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: muawiyah
But if it was part of "family lore" rather than a known and named relative, then the injustice had disappeared into history rather than being something still weighing down on Warren. She should be ashamed of profiting from her ancestors' suffering for claiming that 1/32 relation should help her get a job at Harvard.
22 posted on 05/01/2012 8:11:48 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (You only have three billion heartbeats in a lifetime.How many does the government claim as its own?)
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To: libertarian27

Sure..so do lots of people. My wife’s g-grandmother was we think Iroquois or part Iroquois and a DNA ancestry test confirmed that there were Native American markers in the family DNA. However, that is a long way being an enrolled member of a recognized Indian tribe, being raised in tribal traditions or even having a family memory of tribal customs or traditions. Gee maybe my wife should portray herself as Native American and share in the profits of tribal casinos, get minority scholarships and maybe even a college professorship position teaching Native American Studies.


23 posted on 05/01/2012 8:13:55 AM PDT by The Great RJ
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To: longtermmemmory
This reminds me of the Family Guy episode where Peter tries to convince the Indian casino owners that he is a member of their tribe, in order to get a cut of the casino profits.

Peter Griffin invokes his Indian heritage.

24 posted on 05/01/2012 8:15:28 AM PDT by Maceman
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To: massgopguy

Everything counts or you wouldn’t be here.


25 posted on 05/01/2012 8:15:37 AM PDT by bgill
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To: libertarian27

So now is she going to come out singing, “CHEROKEE PEOPLE....CHEROKEE TRIBE....”


26 posted on 05/01/2012 8:16:17 AM PDT by dfwgator (Don't wake up in a roadside ditch. Get rid of Romney.)
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To: libertarian27

A genealogist”

Mormons are into geneaology.

plus this is Massachusetts.

I knew it! Romney is helping Elizabeth Warren!


27 posted on 05/01/2012 8:19:13 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: ully2

Where are they???


28 posted on 05/01/2012 8:19:57 AM PDT by oldsicilian
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To: longtermmemmory
Basically correct. See my post #21.

Pre-1960's, intermarriage and assimilation was seen as a necessity to ensure tribal survival.

Post-1960's, rules on minimum blood (usually at least one grandparent) were generally imposed in order to limit tribal membership and ensure greater distribution of "stuff" to those on the team. Smaller teams = more goodies to distribute. Some tribal lines can be combined to claim membership such as the Mandan and Arikara in North Dakota. Most cannot. Thus, if you are 1/8th Cherokee and 1/8th Sioux, your combined 1/4th doesn't count for either tribe.

29 posted on 05/01/2012 8:22:01 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: libertarian27

I’m 100% native American. Honest. I was born in upstate New York!


30 posted on 05/01/2012 8:24:40 AM PDT by Poser (Cogito ergo Spam - I think, therefore I ham)
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To: muawiyah

It’s up to the US Government”

Isn’t it also up to the Tribe? At least to a certain extent? I know plenty of people who have joined later in life and they go to the tribe and present their case, usually in the form of documentation. I sort of thought the Tribe had the last word (of course, their discretion might be defined by the US).

Interesting body of law, for sure.

In any event, I am pretty sure that Warren has not been very involved in Cherokee activities. I doubt if she has ever even set foot in Oklahoma.


31 posted on 05/01/2012 8:26:40 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: ConservativeDude
I've known several people become enrolled members of one of the three Cherokee bands on the basis that their grandmother was an enrolled member ~ so that'd be the 1/4 blood quantum.

15% of the people in Oklahoma claim Indian ancestry/affiliation in the census. That's a lot more than claim membership.

I've never met a reservation Indian who would go back. They're just like everybody else once they get out of that sort of environment.

32 posted on 05/01/2012 8:31:54 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: KarlInOhio
Injustices don't just disappear ~ even if you don't know about them some aspect of your current circumstances depends on them having happened.

Br'r(ess) Warren is a hard core member of the 1%, has a doctorate, works at Harvard, etc., etc. If she'd been a Shinancock Indian she'd had to raise ducks for a living and shovel day old bread out of the back of a pickup truck all the time.

See the difference?

33 posted on 05/01/2012 8:36:04 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Vigilanteman
ALL the oldest colonial families have an Indian ancestor ~ the biggest problem in tracking down that ancestor (or a dozen or two) has been folks who've gone into source documents and simply destroyed that information feeling that it was disadvantageous to have an Indian ancestor.

During the 1500s Spain established a substantial infrastructure along the Mississippi, the Ohio, the St. Joseph and the Great miami Rivers ~ today almost all of that history is nothing but a jotting in an old family Bible, or a tracing on the ground, or maybe a boundry marker with words.

People are putting it together on the internet in a hundred communities where it is meaningful.

Eventually we'll be opening up the deerhides at Fonda NY and finding out what they say.

34 posted on 05/01/2012 8:42:44 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libertarian27

There are “genealogists” who can show any paying client to be descended from whomever they want. If I wanted to be a descendant of Mary Queen of Scots, voila, *some* genealogist would draw that line. This particular genealogist’s bona fides bear a look.


35 posted on 05/01/2012 8:45:19 AM PDT by EDINVA
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To: bgill
"Everything counts or you wouldn’t be here."

Yep, EVERY ONE of your ancestors (all the way back) lived long enough to reproduce. What are the odds against that?

36 posted on 05/01/2012 8:51:37 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: RJS1950

My son is related to you. His grandmother was a Boling, direct decendant. He’s known as CUZ to many in Rev Peyton’s Big Damn Band. Guess he really is your cuz!


37 posted on 05/01/2012 8:52:52 AM PDT by hoosiermama
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To: ConservativeDude
The reference I provided says it's ALL up to the US government since only the federal government can recognize foreign and/or Indian nations.

Whatever rules the Indians have does not in any way change the way the US government looks at that tribe when it comes to "recognition". They could say (as one band of Cherokee have done) black people can't be Cherokee. The US government set the standard that the black slaves the Cherokee took with them to Oklahoma were also Cherokee. The issue is "recognition" not DNA ~ and then DNA (to a small degree since adoption can fix those deficiencies), and then having an ancestor on the rolls (if there are rolls) ~ with some of the rolls actually being US government rolls!

The Oneida and Canandagua Indians found their lands sold off by the State of New York when the state said 'Hey, white people can't be Indians, and all the Oneida are white people, so they must move off their lands".

The Oneida had long been in the habit of bringing in Europeans to teach and do skilled trades and teach advanced farming techniques ~ and make guns ~ lots of guns ~ so many your eyes would spin in their sockets.

During the British colonial period the Brits didn't interfere with Oneida business. During the Revolution the Oneida were American allies. After the Revolution the Oneida encountered the state of New York which didn't recognize US government treaties.

Complex business all around.

38 posted on 05/01/2012 8:54:19 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: bgill

In my neighborhood, having an ancestor at Bunker Hill is nice. But my great grandmother and Dom De Luise’s great grandmother being sisters.... now THAT gets you into the Bocce Club.


39 posted on 05/01/2012 8:57:24 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: muawiyah

My ancestors had to shovel shit.....and they didn’t have a pickup. Where’s my money?


40 posted on 05/01/2012 9:01:39 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Jewbacca
I’m Native American, too, according to Romney.

Tribe of Levi.

HA! I was just going to post that I have NO, Native American blood in me, so does that exclude me from running for the Senate.

But all I have to say now, is You and Me Both Brother!

http://trollface.viralprints.com/system/photos/6001/large/1.png

41 posted on 05/01/2012 9:06:07 AM PDT by KC_Lion (A Romney victory means that the socialistsÂ’ takeover of both parties is now complete)
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To: libertarian27
" ... an 1894 document ..."

Did they use proportional fonts in 1894?

42 posted on 05/01/2012 9:13:42 AM PDT by eCSMaster (Conservative patriots, Rise up!)
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To: muawiyah
ALL the oldest colonial families have an Indian ancestor . . .

Interesting stuff. This and your post #38.

I'm not sure we can state with 100% certainty that ALL the oldest colonial families have an Indian ancestor because there is probably an exception somewhere.

It would certainly be accurate to state nearly all or the older the colonial family, then the greater the probability.

Due to the small size of the gene pool, there is a high probability that anyone who had ancestors in America before 1670 is related. For instance, my wife and I both are descendants of a Rev. John Crandall, an early Baptist minister in Rhode Island and contemporary of Roger Williams.

But there would still be exceptions to the 1670 rule. A handful of people imported brides from the old country to avoid intermarriage with either the Native Americans or their relatives already in America.

Post-1670, America became a place to expel undesireables such as debtors, paupers and petty criminals, so the gene pool greatly enlarged after that point.

43 posted on 05/01/2012 9:14:39 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: massgopguy
Well just darned.

Just spent a bit this morning reading about Napoleon Bonaparte and Josephine. Now that was a hoity toity bunch.

Both had American/Caribbean roots. Napoleon's baby daddy, who lied about the family genealogy to get him into military school, spent time in NY and PA back in the colonial period, and Josephine grew up in a sugar plantation.

These two had money or latched onto money, and because the two most famous people in Europe with American roots until Eisenhower and Wallace Simpson!

44 posted on 05/01/2012 9:14:55 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Vigilanteman
There was a flurry of settlement of the English "set aside' in the 1620s, and then the 30 years war interfered with doing much after that for a good long while.

There were a lot of guys and not many women. Most habitations were hardly fit for the most rugged ~ the death rate was incredible.

About the 1670s it became popular to send people to America ~ free rides!

45 posted on 05/01/2012 9:28:48 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Vigilanteman
Also, check out America 1676 ~ very interesting. One of the things that happened in Virginia to really screw up genealogists for all time was the great name change. All of the people involved in Bacon's Rebellion, which included about everybody in the colony, more or less changed their surnames to avoid prosecution ~ by either the new Crown government or elements of the older proprietorship government. One of the standard estimates is 24 out of 25 men changed their names!

George Washington's genealogy depends on men who probably changed their names.

46 posted on 05/01/2012 9:31:49 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Poser
I’m 100% native American. Honest. I was born in upstate New York!

I was born on a small island off the northeastern coast of the United States. My ancestors paid Granny Warren's ancestors 24 dollars for it.

47 posted on 05/01/2012 9:44:19 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Queeg Olbermann: Ahh, but the strawberries that's... that's where I had them.)
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To: EDINVA
There are “genealogists” who can show any paying client to be descended from whomever they want. If I wanted to be a descendant of Mary Queen of Scots, voila, *some* genealogist would draw that line. This particular genealogist’s bona fides bear a look.


My father paid several Scottish (and state approved) genealogists in the 70’s to do family research from the original records.

After the internet (and the LDS church) put copies of the original documents on-line you can see a lot of “wishful thinking” in the reports he received.

48 posted on 05/01/2012 9:46:02 AM PDT by az_gila
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To: EDINVA; az_gila
If you really wanted to be related to Mary, Queen of Scots, as a distant cousin rather than a descendant, chances are pretty good that you could prove the connection if you can trace colonial ancestry to pre-1670 or so.

An interesting thing about almost all of the Puritan era genealogies (1620-1670 or thereabouts) is that they are only 4-5 generations away from the Plantagenet royal lines.

The Plantagenet dynasty, of course, fought the bloody War of the Roses over which branch would rule England only to yield to the equally dysfunctional and much shorter lived Tudor dynasty, when Henry VII was victorious at Bosworth Field.

The Plantagenet's had dropped scores of illegitimate children (along with a lesser number of the legitimate variety) into the bloodlines of British Isles, many of whom can trace their lineage back to the most reprehensible English monarchs like John I or Edward I, who were famed for spreading their seed about.

One of the few positive contributions of the Tudor line was to make appointments based on merit rather than lineage as the rival Plantagenet's greatly outnumbered the Tudors and generally did not get installed into positions of trust until after the reign of Elizabeth I, the last Tudor monarch.

While some of the Plantagenet line displayed loyalty to the House of Stuart, especially James I, who wanted to pacify and unify the country, a great many more rebelled against the excesses of Charles I and Archbishop Ladd, the first great wave emigrating to the new world as persecuted puritans in the 1620's and 1630's and the second after the restoration of the House of Stuart in the late 1650's thru 1670's, when the House of Stuart was finally booted out for good and the American colonies became as much a dumping ground for undesirables expelled from the old country as a destination for religious refugees.

49 posted on 05/01/2012 10:51:48 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: libertarian27

LOL! Of course! It’s in the same folder as Obama’s original birth certificate and college transcripts! And it only took four days to find, unlike Obama’s Selective Service Card or Harvard records, which remain lost after 30 years...


50 posted on 05/01/2012 11:10:06 AM PDT by pabianice (ame with)
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