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Frank discussion re our loss to Obama/Romney and the future direction of FR and tea party movement
Click here to pledge your support! ^ | May 4, 2012 | Jim Robinson

Posted on 05/04/2012 6:31:27 AM PDT by Jim Robinson

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To: ZULU

“But our bigger problem, in my mind, is what is going on in the “educational” system. American Children are being taught a revised, biased, false story about western civilization and America. They are leaving schools with no knowledge of what America is, and how we evolved to become the world’s first and most successful democratic Republic. And so, they become ready tinder for minds like Obama’s.”

Just a thought....

What is needed is an integrated network of private schools that will again teach from the perspective that Western Civilization was (and is) superior, and teach with a true account of the facts of history (rather than the “rewritten history” of the post-1960’s).

Kind of like I remember receiving in public (yes, public!) schools in the 1950’s and early 1960’s before the lefties took it over.

Just as there are “Christian academies” that provide education based on a religious foundation for those parents who choose it for their kids, we need “Western Acadamies” that teach (for lack of a better phrase) “true history” from a Western perspective.

It may be impossible to reclaim the public schools from a Gramsican left that has become firmly entrenched. But that may not be necessary. What -is- necessary is to create a large-scale alternative to the public schools. Do the same thing with education that has been done [by conservatives and traditional-minded folks] with the mass-mainstream media — that is, ignore it, bypass it, do an end-run around it.

Just as conservatives now obtain their news and information from alternative sources, we must build a system to completely bypass the leftist indoctrination centers that are more commonly known as public schools.


251 posted on 05/04/2012 8:22:10 AM PDT by Road Glide
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To: Jim Robinson

The media are culpable in getting Romney nominated as well. They thought we would be less likely to support him, but I don’t see we have any choice. I’m just glad to know that God is still in control and I know how it will end eventually!


252 posted on 05/04/2012 8:22:24 AM PDT by bamagirl1944 (That's short for Alabama, not Obama)
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To: RitchieAprile
adults recognize that they must work together and at times make compromises.

Like the GOP-E did in 2010 when many of their pet RINOs lost in the primaries?

children whine, cry, and stamp their feet when they don’t get their way.

Conservatives didn't set this precedent. The GOP-E has shown they would rather lose to the Dem than support the Tea party goals and candidates. Yet now that they have their RINO, through scorched-earth primary politics, we're just supposed to forget their long knives and fall in line all in the name of party loyalty.

Sorry, but the GOP-E trashed the GOP brand last decade. The Tea Party is the only thing that revived it. I'm not just going to blindly back their idiocy again.

253 posted on 05/04/2012 8:22:56 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: RitchieAprile
adults recognize that they must work together and at times make compromises.

Like the GOP-E did in 2010 when many of their pet RINOs lost in the primaries?

children whine, cry, and stamp their feet when they don’t get their way.

Conservatives didn't set this precedent. The GOP-E has shown they would rather lose to the Dem than support the Tea party goals and candidates. Yet now that they have their RINO, through scorched-earth primary politics, we're just supposed to forget their long knives and fall in line all in the name of party loyalty.

Sorry, but the GOP-E trashed the GOP brand last decade. The Tea Party is the only thing that revived it. I'm not just going to blindly back their idiocy again.

254 posted on 05/04/2012 8:23:14 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: CharacterCounts

if the shoe fits..just saying.


255 posted on 05/04/2012 8:23:28 AM PDT by RitchieAprile
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To: Erik Latranyi
Ours is not to question, but to continue to strive for perfection.

BULL. This is a Constitutional Republic, and it is our right to question EVERYTHING when it comes to the government. My Lord did not give me a brain to follow statists like Romney and Obama into tyranny. I will fight it with my last breath, as did my sainted ancestors, alongside the Founders.

256 posted on 05/04/2012 8:23:51 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
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To: RitchieAprile
adults recognize that they must work together and at times make compromises.

children whine, cry, and stamp their feet when they don’t get their way.

Funny you and the other sellouts have the same definition of working together and compromising that the Democrats do.

What is Romney giving up?

257 posted on 05/04/2012 8:24:43 AM PDT by delapaz
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To: fml

EXACTLY.....Excellent post


258 posted on 05/04/2012 8:24:43 AM PDT by CentralTexasAg
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To: central_va
Just call him a Yankee, it's easier and it encompasses all those things in your diatribe.

The "War of Northern Aggression", as you probably call it in your simple mind, has been over for 150 years. We won. Get over it.

259 posted on 05/04/2012 8:26:05 AM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: Bruce Campbells Chin

I agree 100% with that.


260 posted on 05/04/2012 8:26:49 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: jpsb
It is ok to be a Paul supporter here as long as you don’t make to much noise.

I've not been a Paul supporter. I've wanted to support Palin since I first heard her speak the day McCain introduced her. But I have some questions to anyone here who would be willing to coolly answer them.

First a statement: from what I've learned, Ron Paul is first one who supports the Constitution as it was written. He has developed, sponsored and convinced many of a number of opinions regarding our fiscal house and how to get it in order. He has a voting record unparalleled in terms of supporting the Constitution. He is Pro-Life, and as a physician, understands the problems confronting the health system and knows how to solve them. He served in the armed services. He appeals to all kinds of political forces.

So my first question is, why aren't we Freepers supporting him? I understand his foreign policy seems a bit odd. But even George Washington cautioned against getting involved with foreign wars. Some think he's anti-mililtary, but he's not. His record shows that he's anti-waste in military spending and military use.

Question 2: If Freepers can consider supporting Romney, how can we not consider supporting Dr. Paul?

I hope someone will answer these questions without putting me down as a flake. I'm not. I simply don't understand what seems to me to be a lack of logic in the thrust and content of this thread. Thanks.

261 posted on 05/04/2012 8:27:38 AM PDT by MSSC6644 (Defeat Satan: pray the Rosary.)
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To: buffaloguy

A truce means you stop nagging.


262 posted on 05/04/2012 8:27:47 AM PDT by donna (Mitt? NEVER!)
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To: Jim Robinson
I have been hoping to see a post like this from you, Jim. Thanks.

We have the system we have, and we are in the circumstances we are in. It didn't spring up overnight or by accident, and none of us here today will live to see our Republic fully restored to the Founder's vision.

However, like all Americans of every time, we have a job to do. Giving up and checking out is not an option.

I think that in January of 2009 things looked a lot worse for conservatism and for America than they do today, even considering Romney's apparent nomination. The tea party movement was and continues to be a great hope for the future. We have some good young people in office (Paul Ryan, Bobby Jindal, Scott Walker, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, etc.) The conservative new media presence is way ahead of where it was in 2008.

Here is what I see as the key point: America continues to be a conservative country and the American people can still be trusted as a whole to choose the conservative path if it is on offer. We need to build on this but the framework is still there, thank God.

Bill Clinton ran (falsely) as a moderate and a pragmatist in 1992 and won against a divided and demoralized GOP. He then governed as the leftist he always was and as a result the 'Rats got slammed in 1994. Bubba said "I hear you" and declared (insincerely) that "the era of big government is over." He then proceeded to compromise and govern as a moderate until after the 1996 election.

Obama also ran (even more falsely) as a moderate and a pragmatist in 2008 and won against a divided and demoralized GOP. He has governed as a raging commie. The 'Rats got smacked down again in 2010 but rather than employ Clintonian triangulation and guile, Obama has come out of the closet even more as a leftist. It is all about class warfare and identity politics with him and will be through November.

Here's the thing: Even though Romney is no one on FreeRepublic's idea of a true conservative, still he is running somewhat as a conservative. More importantly, we have the first election in decades where the Democrat is running as a self-acknowledged undiluted leftist. Thus we have a golden opportunity to run this election as a national referendum on conservatism vs. leftism.

I look forward to the next six months of explaining to the American people why leftism results in low growth, high unemployment, huge deficits and debt, inflation and a weak dollar, plummeting home valuations, exploding student loan debt, insolvent entitlement programs, ruinous unfunded public employee pension and health care obligations, bankrupt municipalities and states, downgraded credit ratings, and all the rest.

These failures of leftism are happening right now across America and throughout the Western world. Yet as recently as 2004 and even 2008 we had the 'Rats extolling the European big government model and talking about how America is backwards and hateful for not having government health care, government paid college, etc.

Obama and the 'Rats now have to own Obamacare, "stimulus", "green energy" central planning, @julia lifelong handouts to all, the entire menu of now-failed leftist nostrums. They have nowhere to hide when we come at them with the Reagan stick.

So let's just get right down to it and beat the crap out of them! (In the arena of debate and at the ballot box, of course.)

We can worry about Romney once he and the new GOP-majority Congress are in office.

263 posted on 05/04/2012 8:28:07 AM PDT by rogue yam
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To: Spirochete
In this post "http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2725798/posts"

You said: "I'd rather shut the place down than be involved in any effort to install abortionist/gay rights pushing RINOS like Romney or Giuliani into the White House!!" Does the truce change this stance?

----------------------------------

I would also be interested in seeing an answer to this question. I am no Romney fan, but I do not believe we will have a free American republic after another four years of Obama. I pray the brokered convention/Palin scenario plays out. But assuming it does not, we are left with two choices - voting for the only viable candidate other than Obama, or enabling the re-election of the ineligible, evil, incumbent. Unfortunately, in a two man race where in each state the winner takes all, not voting or voting for a third-party candidate simply makes it more likely the incumbent will be retained. Don't blame me - I didn't take these rules.

So, for those of us who believe Obama MUST be defeated to save the republic, you are with us or against us. I respect your feelings if you simply cannot support Romney, if you'd rather not vote, etc. I'm not going to attack you or call you names. But you are an obstacle to the goal of turning out the incumbent, whether you like it or not.

I don't like this situation - but that's the way I see it. Now is FreeRepublic going to support the defeat of Obama or not? I'm not "going to war" against you if the answer is no; I just want to understand, clearly, what position this site is taking in the upcoming election.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." (attrib: Edmund Burke)

264 posted on 05/04/2012 8:28:17 AM PDT by In Maryland (Liberal logic - the ultimate oxymoron!)
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To: Jim Robinson

While I agree with you 100% (as usual), Jim, I’ll say here that I will hold my nose and vote for Romney (boy, am I SICK of having to hold my nose to vote.....).

ANYone will be better than Obama. As others here have stated, a Republican-controlled Congress has a good chance of forcing Romney to the right of center. We need to focus on taking the Senate and expanding the Republican majority in the House.

As you pointed out, that means Tea Party-approved candidates for both houses of Congress.

Then.......we just might have a chance at righting this listing, sinking ship of state.


265 posted on 05/04/2012 8:29:04 AM PDT by RightOnline (I am Andrew Breitbart!)
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To: Jim Robinson
Well said.

In times like this, I always remember the remark of Lord Acton, one of the forefathers of the modern American brand of conservatism which seeks to conserve the American Founding along with the rest of the patrimony of Christendom, though he hailed from the other side of the pond:

At all times sincere friends of freedom have been rare, and its triumphs have been due to minorities, that have prevailed by associating themselves with auxiliaries whose objects often differed from their own; and this association, which is always dangerous, has been sometimes disastrous, by giving to opponents just grounds of opposition, and by kindling dispute over the spoils in the hour of success.

Those FReepers who may chose to "hold their nose" and vote for Romney are taking exactly the sort of risk Lord Acton spoke of -- hoping to advance freedom by associating with [an] auxiliary whose object are different from their own (in Gov. Romney's case, I suspect the object is simply his own power, though we might hope it is power for the GOP). In either case a solid Tea Party victory down-ticket would drag what I, at least, regard as the convictionless RINO to the right. If that happens the risk may be vindicated, if not a protest vote for a third party candidate would be the better choice.

Each of us will need to make his or her own decision about the top of the ticket come November. In the meantime let all FReepers heed JimRob's call to work tirelessly for a conservative victories down-ticket!

266 posted on 05/04/2012 8:29:11 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: fml

And the anybody but Romney camp have been called the same things and worse.

Are YOU going to apologize to us?


267 posted on 05/04/2012 8:29:52 AM PDT by reaganaut (VAB! Voting against both Romney and Obama. Constitution party, here I come!)
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To: Beagle8U
The blame (100% of it) goes to those that voted for the stupid bastard in the primaries.

You know what really frosts me about this fiasco?

Lots of us didn't vote in any of those primaries. At all.

We stayed home on Stupor Tuesday, and all those other primaries.

Why, do you ask?

Simple:

Our primaries haven't even happened yet!!!!

WV primary is on May 8.

I'll probably vote for Newt.

BFD ...

Apparently it has been already decided that r0mney, the all-holy knight in shining armour on a white horse is "The One" to defeat "The One".

FUBO.

FUMR.

I'm on the verge of FURP.

268 posted on 05/04/2012 8:29:59 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: MSSC6644
Question 2: If Freepers can consider supporting Romney, how can we not consider supporting Dr. Paul?

Good question.
269 posted on 05/04/2012 8:30:49 AM PDT by Gennie
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To: backwoods-engineer

Bingo!


270 posted on 05/04/2012 8:31:05 AM PDT by reaganaut (VAB! Voting against both Romney and Obama. Constitution party, here I come!)
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To: rockrr

Sarah Palin was the tipping point for my voting the presidential ticket as well. I voted for her, not for McCain. Without her I can’t really say whether I’d vote the top of the ticket or not. You can’t prove a negative.

But things are vastly different now, even though one of the candidates remains the same. We now know what the man is not only capable of, but plans. As much as I can’t stand voting for someone like Romney, I will, because another 4 years of Obama will only accelerate America becoming a socialist state, moreso than under Romney. At least, that’s my opinion.


271 posted on 05/04/2012 8:31:33 AM PDT by bcsco
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To: rogue yam

Amen. Well said.


272 posted on 05/04/2012 8:31:47 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jim Robinson

Romney is less awful than Obama, but he’s still awful. So I’ll vote for Romney, but it will be even more painful than voting for McCain. I’d even pick Ron Paul over Romney, but that would be no different than not voting.

The GOP-e needs to go. Failing this, we need a whole new party. We all know this.

The problem is, we have the need but not the leader. Palin, for instance, has the leadership ability and character to lead the rebellion, but not the stomach. According to her own statement, she puts her family ahead of the country.

The founding fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. Most of them had to make good on that pledge. We need no less today.


273 posted on 05/04/2012 8:32:05 AM PDT by EternalHope (Politicians will always let you down. -- Sarah Palin)
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To: JRandomFreeper
I didn't realize all the states had voted in the primary and that the convention had occured. I thought THAT was supposed to be how the system works.

That is how it works, if you want to get that prickly about it. You're welcome to join us here in Real-ville. This thread presumes a Romney nomination.

274 posted on 05/04/2012 8:32:10 AM PDT by TexasNative2000 (Jimmy Carter's incompetence + Richard Nixon's paranoia = Barack Obama)
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To: Lazlo in PA

Thanks to Lincoln the butcher and the statist Yankees who followed that goon, we are all slaves of the state and states rights is dead. You are so right it is over and the Feds are getting over on us. Curse your ancestors and anyone who cant’s see the republic died 150 years ago. New England will go Obama and gave us Etch-A-Sketch Milquetoast, Yankeedome and New England is a curse on the USA. Have a day in crapville.


275 posted on 05/04/2012 8:32:10 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Jim Robinson

BTTT


276 posted on 05/04/2012 8:32:38 AM PDT by cardinal4 (Do I really need a /s tag?)
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To: unique1
I think it means that I can post that I’m voting for Romney, against Obama without being banned!

Good for you. Congratulations. Soon as I start to see pro-Romney posts it's opus time for me.

277 posted on 05/04/2012 8:32:42 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: buffaloguy
I'm not a republican. I'm a conservative. So no, I won't be voting straight pubbie ticket. I'll be voting for the most conservative in every race. And that means that I won't be voting for Romney.

/johnny

278 posted on 05/04/2012 8:34:43 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Responsibility2nd
And I understand this (bleep) is in Austin, Texas - hippie liberal capital of the USA.

Excuse me hoss, but as a long-time San Franciscan whose girlfriend is a Berkeley native, I'm here to tell you that you may still have a thing or two to learn about where the real hippie liberals congregate in these here United States of America.

279 posted on 05/04/2012 8:34:43 AM PDT by rogue yam
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To: jpsb

The way I read Jim’s message, he has seen the light and as long as one is not promoting Demobulbs, it’s full speed ahead.

Interesting to hear that Paul is your Congressmen. I view him as over the top but one smart guy. I especially like his view of troops bases all over the world - pull them out and station them here - spend the money here. We can readily travel practically anywhere on short notice and having bases everywhere is a huge waste of money.


280 posted on 05/04/2012 8:35:25 AM PDT by unique1
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To: Jim Robinson

Truce or no truce, I’m still not voting for Romney.


281 posted on 05/04/2012 8:36:24 AM PDT by FReepaholic (Stupidity is not a crime, so you're free to go.)
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To: Jim Robinson

Truce? Paint me skeptical - and you know exactly why Jim. Maybe people CAN change ... except Romney of course. :-)

We’ll have to wait to see if the combination of the GOP-E and the “Never-Romney” conservatives shackles us with another 4 years of the most damaging President in history. Nevertheless, I hope FR can survive this election cycle.


282 posted on 05/04/2012 8:37:01 AM PDT by DesertSapper (Wishing Cain was still in the race.)
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To: TexasNative2000
I'm not willing to make presumptions or call a game in the 3rd quarter. Romney still doesn't have enough uncontested delegates to wrap up the nomination.

/johnny

283 posted on 05/04/2012 8:37:41 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: SAWTEX

I only use Visa debit and it never fails.


284 posted on 05/04/2012 8:37:41 AM PDT by unkus (Silence Is Consent)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“And that means that I won’t be voting for Romney.”

It appears to me that you have fallen for the “Perot Gambit”, guaranteeing that Obama will stay in the Oval Office.


285 posted on 05/04/2012 8:38:04 AM PDT by buffaloguy (uab.)
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To: Jim Robinson
Regardless of the outcome of the presidential race, we must build on our majorities at the local state and federal levels and we must retake the senate.

I've heard it said that one of the key offices is your local Sheriff. Having a man of character that can refuse an order because of conscience due to an immoral order from a superior is quite beneficial. Even if the most he can do is give you a call ahead of time to "let you know he's been ordered to "visit" you."

286 posted on 05/04/2012 8:38:34 AM PDT by uptoolate (Republicans sure do like their liberalism)
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To: no-to-illegals

May Peace Reign Here at/in FReeperLand. We owe it to each other.


Amen to that.


287 posted on 05/04/2012 8:39:43 AM PDT by unkus (Silence Is Consent)
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To: submarinerswife

we are even trying to get host to do their radio shows on location.......


288 posted on 05/04/2012 8:39:43 AM PDT by advertising guy ( Slo Joe Biden " I promise you the President has a big stick, but Michelle's is bigger ")
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To: buffaloguy
The GOP-E guaranteed that Obama would stay in office by badmouthing conservatives (See Karl Rove), playing dirty tricks, and changing the rules in the middle of the game.

If the GOP wants my vote, they need to put a conservative forward. Period.

/johnny

289 posted on 05/04/2012 8:40:17 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Jim Robinson

Very well said. We must continue to fight and devote our resources where they will truly count. Keeping the House (hopefully increasing the conservative majority), and re-taking the Senate should be our goals. In addition, we should strive for a veto-proof Senate... that’s a stretch goal, but we should certainly go for it.

Thanks much, Jim, for leading the fight. Your wisdom on what we should do is spot-on. Retreat in the face of an over-whelming enemy is not surrender; rather, the result will be to save and grow our resources for the bigger fight!


290 posted on 05/04/2012 8:40:21 AM PDT by Real Cynic No More (OBAMA!!'s name is all caps as sarcasm to indicate a lack of respect, as he does not deserve it)
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To: Abathar

The fact we all here dislike Obama is unquestionable, but those of us who realize what a disaster he will be with 4 more years will logically vote to remove him and at least have a CHANCE for sane executive decisions being made.

- — -
It is not unquestionable, based on the number of I times we have been called ‘democrat plants’.

I realize the disaster Obama will be in the next 4 years, but Romney will be the SAME disaster. I’m voting against BOTH of them.

I will never ever vote for Romney, I cannot in good conscience. It is the GOPs fault if we lose not mine, because they should never have let a RINO liar get this far.

I’m a conservative, not a Republican.


291 posted on 05/04/2012 8:40:41 AM PDT by reaganaut (VAB! Voting against both Romney and Obama. Constitution party, here I come!)
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To: EternalVigilance

F O!

Now is not the time for your bile!


292 posted on 05/04/2012 8:40:53 AM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: rogue yam

True dat!


293 posted on 05/04/2012 8:41:23 AM PDT by old school
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To: unique1
I view him as over the top

Please read my post #261 and then elaborate on your meaning here. Thanks.

294 posted on 05/04/2012 8:41:34 AM PDT by MSSC6644 (Defeat Satan: pray the Rosary.)
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To: sitetest
Does this mean that folks may generally say pro-Romney things? Argue for Romney (civilly, of course)? Engage in the sort of behavior in favor of Romney...

There is plenty of this already on FR; why add more to it? If you folks elect Romney, I'll decide in 4 years whether to help re-elect him. This year, I'm making my stand against him and other such Republicans who are marginalizing conservatives in the party.
295 posted on 05/04/2012 8:41:46 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Jim Robinson

Yes, we do need to fight to save the Republic!


296 posted on 05/04/2012 8:42:46 AM PDT by WKUHilltopper (And yet...we continue to tolerate this crap...)
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To: Jim Robinson; All
Never forget, folks, how we ultimately came to this point:

Next for GOP leaders: Stopping Sarah Palin

To The GOP Leaders Trying To Stop Palin: November 2 Is Only The Beginning

297 posted on 05/04/2012 8:43:03 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Jim Robinson

Heartsob abort. Grassroots activities re-engage in 3...2..1. God bless you, Jim.


298 posted on 05/04/2012 8:43:07 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Real men are not threatened by strong women." -- Sarah Palin)
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To: Jim Robinson
You've left out one other option, Jim.

We have fallen under the stupor that Obama will be the Democrat candidate, when most of us know he is probably ineligible for the U.S. presidency, and/or is so guilty of egregious Constitutional violations, that in a sane world his future would be void.

One direction we can direct our energies is standing on our representatives, and those with influence who can carry our voices to a place of power, for the total exposure of this unconstitutional cretin. Sheriff Joe is one such voice, we can and should add to it with hundreds of thousand of amplified protests in unison. Obama doesn't have to be an option if the truth can prevail.

We need to be opening our mouths and our wallets, not just for conservative candidates, but for the effort to expose, indict, and expel this fraud. We also need to begin walking with our wallets away from those organizations which perpetuate this facade of "truth." It will be work and it will be costly, but unless economic ramifications are felt by the Leftist organizations, both corporate and individually, in this country, they will continue with their demonic agenda.

299 posted on 05/04/2012 8:43:24 AM PDT by fwdude
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To: backwoods-engineer
"You raise an interesting point. If Zero wasn't an ineligible Communist controlled by George Soros, I might consider voting for him, just so TSHTF on his watch.

I understand your feelings - a while back I posted to the same effect. However, it has become clear to me in the last few months that the stuff hitting the fan won't just be a depression; Obama has waged war on Christians and has consorted with our enemies to undermine the security of the country. I could weather a depression; I can't weather the destruction of Israel, a nuclear Iran, a nuclear-armed North Korea with long range missiles and the spectre of millions of Americans murdered at the hands of terrorists. I now see those things as possibilities with another 4 years of Obama.

300 posted on 05/04/2012 8:43:24 AM PDT by In Maryland (Liberal logic - the ultimate oxymoron!)
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