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The VAT of the land
The Economist ^ | May 3rd 2012 | W.W.

Posted on 05/06/2012 7:15:07 PM PDT by Typical_Whitey

THE value-added tax is getting some love lately, but will anyone listen? In his new book, "The Benefit and the Burden: Tax Reform—Why We Need It and What It Will Take", Bruce Bartlett, an erstwhile Republican wonk, comes out in favour of a VAT. Josh Barro, a center-right economic policy analyst, writes today in favour of a VAT at Bloomberg View. Just one more curmudgeonly self-hating conservative tax analyst and we have a trend! (If you're not sure how a VAT works, Mr Barro's third paragraph has you covered.)

Conservatives have long opposed a VAT on the grounds that it makes raising revenue too easy. Rather than starving the beast, a VAT awards the beast a lifetime pass to the Golden Corral. In a review of "The Benefit and the Burden", David Henderson, a research fellow at the Hoover Institute, tracks the evolution of Mr Bartlett's VATitude:

For a few years now, he has argued that the United States should adopt a vat, and he continues that argument in his book. Conservatives and libertarians tend to oppose a vat on the grounds that it is a “money machine” for the federal government. Indeed, Bartlett writes that he had opposed the vat on those grounds. So why did he change his mind Because he no longer sees “any hope of controlling entitlement spending before the baby-boom deluge hits.” He writes, “The United States [he means the U.S. government] needs a money machine.”

(Excerpt) Read more at economist.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: tax
Make no mistake this is going to be pushed by both candidates so no matter who wins in November a VAT is almost certainly going to happen. The unsustainable debt and the coming austerity will probably be prime campaign fodder especially in light of the Sociailist winning in France today.
1 posted on 05/06/2012 7:15:09 PM PDT by Typical_Whitey
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To: Typical_Whitey

Time for some Guerrilla capitalism.


2 posted on 05/06/2012 7:17:42 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Typical_Whitey

Is it a VAT or a national sales tax? There is a difference you know. Let’s use the correct terminology. A lot of people have been calling for a National Sales tax which is not necessarily a VAT. So which is it?


3 posted on 05/06/2012 7:19:31 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Typical_Whitey

unreal... MORE taxes in addition to HIGHER taxes, because g_d forbid we actually cut SPENDING. here in PA they’re talking about replacing property tax with “alternative sources” like a sales tax... sounds great, until they add it and don’t reduce the latter, or not to the same degree. even a new VAT would become just as complicated as the current code once every politician takes care of their pet groups and lobbyists... gotta feed the government beast, y’know?


4 posted on 05/06/2012 7:19:42 PM PDT by Libertarian4Bush (if you voted for obama, I have no respect for you. you're either a loser or a sucker. sorry!)
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To: Typical_Whitey

Look how well it’s working out for France.


5 posted on 05/06/2012 7:21:39 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Typical_Whitey

NO, NO, NO, NO, NOOOOOOO!!!!!! NO VAT!

When I lived in the UK, it was 17.5%. Top that off with all of the ‘sin taxes’ that get raised year after year by the Chancellor of the Exchequer....and they’re STILL broke!


6 posted on 05/06/2012 7:22:13 PM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (A MUST WATCH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KeOLurcQaqI)
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To: Typical_Whitey

How will they enforce all these new rules and taxes? People are already going Galt, this’ll just speed it up.


7 posted on 05/06/2012 7:23:40 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Ich habe keinen Konig aber Gott)
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To: Perdogg
You make good points. However, there are endless variations of “outgo” taxes, whether they go by the name of “sales tax”, “VAT”, or (as here in Canada) “GST”. Some cover just things you can touch (goods), others also cover services. A VAT should apply to both (value-added); but, each jurisdiction would have their own special exemptions, etc.

At the risk of getting flamed, I would say that a VAT is usually a less bad form of taxation than income taxes. We have the GST (Goods and Services Tax) here in Canada & to the extent that it *displaces* an equivalent amount of income tax, rather than *adds to* the income taxes, it is a slight improvement. OTOH, if it is used as a tax grab — you don't want it.

8 posted on 05/06/2012 7:27:21 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: Typical_Whitey

I’ve been worried about this for quite some time. There’s going to be quite a bit less income for a lot of people for quite a long time, therefore less income tax will be paid. And for people who “won” the housing bubble and are going to be retired for the next thirty years or more won’t have any income either. Screw ‘em both with a tax on everything they buy,


9 posted on 05/06/2012 7:28:14 PM PDT by jiggyboy (Ten percent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

I think a GST would be preferable to the current tax system, but I also believe that a true VAT is not politically possible in the country, thank God.


10 posted on 05/06/2012 7:31:07 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Typical_Whitey

Does a VAT require a Constitutional Amendment or is it merely a Congressional law to be passed?


11 posted on 05/06/2012 7:33:43 PM PDT by tbw2
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

That’s the worry here — that a “new, low” VAT (or national sales tax or whatever) would be introduced with promises of “reforming the existing tax code at a later date” which of course would never happen.


12 posted on 05/06/2012 7:34:04 PM PDT by jiggyboy (Ten percent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
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To: RushIsMyTeddyBear

F.Y.Interest. It’s now 20%. As of Jan 2011.


13 posted on 05/06/2012 7:35:27 PM PDT by moose07 (The truth will out, one day.)
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To: Typical_Whitey

14 posted on 05/06/2012 7:38:11 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: moose07

Thanks! And it NEVER ends!!!!!!


15 posted on 05/06/2012 7:40:43 PM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (A MUST WATCH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KeOLurcQaqI)
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Thanks Vintage Freeper for posting this:

Debt Ceiling Debate in a Nutshell | Creators.com | 07/29/2011 | Chip Bok | Posted on 07/30/2011 12:12:11 PM PDT by Vintage Freeper

16 posted on 05/06/2012 7:58:20 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (FReepathon 2Q time -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks Typical_Whitey.


17 posted on 05/06/2012 7:58:36 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (FReepathon 2Q time -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Typical_Whitey

Surrender to the radical left should NOT be an option


18 posted on 05/06/2012 8:09:33 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Perdogg

“Is it a VAT or a national sales tax? There is a difference you know. Let’s use the correct terminology. A lot of people have been calling for a National Sales tax which is not necessarily a VAT. So which is it?”

Simple answer:
It’s a TAX, no matter what you call it.

Money out of YOUR pockets, into theirs.
And what may you expect in return?


19 posted on 05/06/2012 8:54:02 PM PDT by Road Glide
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To: Typical_Whitey

...they’re going to force a VAT on us for our own good, aren’t they? :(:(:(:(


20 posted on 05/06/2012 9:17:19 PM PDT by Tzimisce (THIS SUCKS)
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To: Perdogg

VAT. Brucie hates the National Retail Sales Tax.


21 posted on 05/06/2012 10:20:27 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Typical_Whitey

ayep! let’s all line up and offer the government another pocket to pick!


22 posted on 05/07/2012 4:40:23 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Typical_Whitey
Wouldn't it be simpler to go to the real bottom line: The state owns you and all that you possess. You live to serve the state and when you are no longer useful, Obamacare will dispose of you.
23 posted on 05/07/2012 5:00:25 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: Typical_Whitey

This is why Bruce Bartlett is such a bad thinker. The liberal media covers for him, but he’s not so sharp.
Bartlett’s formula:

1. Politicians can’t stop spending.
2. They’ve set up the Boomers with massive unfunded benefits.
3. They’ve saddled the Boomers’ children, grandchildren and great grandchildren with massive debt, heavy regulation and taxation.
4. #2 cannot be met without giving more money to #1 thus exacerbating #3.

How is this a solution?

Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result is insane.

Bartlett is crazy.


24 posted on 05/07/2012 5:24:21 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD; Truth29

Why NOBODY brings up servitude (I mean, if they ‘own’ a part of your labor in taxes, they ‘own’ YOU). Dumbo and Mini-Me both think 30% of your life is a good start.

I think the easiest solution is....FOLLOW THE FRICKIN’ CONSTITUTION, YOU DUMB, POS MF’ERS. </rant off>


25 posted on 05/07/2012 7:05:29 AM PDT by i_robot73
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To: Road Glide

“Money out of YOUR pockets, into theirs.
And what may you expect in return?”

easy, demands for more......
:^)


26 posted on 05/07/2012 7:56:48 AM PDT by wrencher
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To: Typical_Whitey

There are many methods of tax COLLECTION. Regardless of the methods, there is a limit to the amount of tax that gets collected. That limit is about 20% GDP.

Our current and historic problem is SPENDING. Currently collection and spending are two seperate activities of Congress. Thus, as long as there are no limits on Congress’s ability to borrow, there will not be any linkages between the two. Until there is a link, there will never be any ability to “starve the beast”.

The firs action necessary to fix this mess is to first limit spending to our tax rate in terms of GDP. To fix the debt issue, the spending needs to be reduced to LESS than the collection rate and then use the surplus to purchase back the debt. This is known and has not changed in decades. What we are lacking is the political will to make this happen.


27 posted on 05/07/2012 8:13:50 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

In theory, the VAT is a much more efficient tax which encourages saving and penalizes spending. But, as we all know, you will never persuade politicians in Washington to trade income tax for VAT. They want both. Just like we have in Canada.


28 posted on 05/07/2012 11:14:43 AM PDT by littleharbour
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To: taxcontrol

Spending is the problem absolutely, but when it was being addressed during the debt ceiling (LOL) fiasco the Conservatives lost the political battle because the majority believes, as it has been instructed by the treasonous Democrats, that it is entitled to vote itself benefits from the public trust. That mentality must be changed or the Republic is doomed.


29 posted on 05/07/2012 1:30:53 PM PDT by Typical_Whitey (Obama reelection means the end of America.)
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To: tbw2
They have the power, but not the courage to pass a VAT. Not even the Pelousi/Dingy/Baby-Doc triumvirate of 2008-2010 dared it.
30 posted on 05/07/2012 2:24:46 PM PDT by Jacquerie (No court will save us from ourselves.)
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To: Typical_Whitey
"Because he no longer sees “any hope of controlling entitlement spending before the baby-boom deluge hits.” He writes, “The United States [he means the U.S. government] needs a money machine.”

It is not a case of controlling entitlement spending it is controlling the federal government from robbing the booms blind. I have been paying in for over 45 years and they have been stealing the money since the 60's when it became part of the general tax collected pot. These bastards have robbed us blind and now they are afraid of us and rightfully so.

31 posted on 05/07/2012 3:49:58 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Grammar & spelling maybe wrong, get over it, the world will not come to an end!)
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To: GeronL

You’re getting more vociferous in your old age, Geron.


32 posted on 05/07/2012 3:50:55 PM PDT by chuck_the_tv_out
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To: chuck_the_tv_out

I totally disagree with the very premise that government needs more money or easier money.


33 posted on 05/07/2012 4:17:44 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Typical_Whitey

The problem ain’t a lack of revenue for these idjits....


34 posted on 05/07/2012 4:20:45 PM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: jiggyboy

People work their whole lives hoping to retire and stop having to pay the income tax they’ve been bleeding for decades. Now, when they retire, they’re going to get taxed in a new way when either a VAT or National Sales Tax kicks in.


35 posted on 05/07/2012 4:27:49 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: GeronL

Of course. VAT is horrible. It’s a tax on the GDP.

The fundamental tenet of taxation is that you tax what you want less of. You tax the GDP, the GDP goes down.


36 posted on 05/07/2012 4:41:49 PM PDT by chuck_the_tv_out
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To: chuck_the_tv_out

A tax is a burden, that is its very definition.


37 posted on 05/07/2012 4:46:39 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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