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Fukushima unit 2 liquification of uranium core. never seen before in history of nuclear power
ENEnews ^ | ENEnews

Posted on 05/15/2012 10:51:30 AM PDT by yank in the UK

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To: ontap

Remember Y2K? Remember how it was supposed to be the end of modern civilization?

Those of us who actually wrote code for Big Computer Systems were laughing our asses off about the panic.

I don’t believe that any bona-fide nuke operators or objective physics jocks are laughing here, but they’re not running around in circles, yelling “Repent, the end is near!” either.

Cleaning up this mess will be a long, slow, expensive slog... but it will get done.

And the death toll still stands at about: The nuke plant? Three (from physical deaths due to the disaster, not “atomic” deaths), and over 20K from the tsunami.

The hysterics continue to point a quavering finger at the reactors... while ignoring a pile of bodies the size of a pretty good sized town causes by the flooding. I fail to understand the illogic of this, to this day.


51 posted on 05/15/2012 11:56:49 AM PDT by NVDave
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To: NVDave
As I suspected: the "liquified" (past tense) condition existed in the past, but that condition no longer exists. There appears to be a whole lot of "chicken little" needless panic on this thread.

If all reactors are currently below the boiling point of water, there certainly can be no "liquified (as in "molten) corium" hanging around...

52 posted on 05/15/2012 11:59:48 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: UB355
However what would the movie be called if it were to be made in Japan?

The Uruguay Syndrome

53 posted on 05/15/2012 12:04:09 PM PDT by Haiku Guy ("The problem with Internet Quotes is that you never know if they are real" -- Abraham Lincoln)
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To: kidd

Doubt it has been reported that it melted through containment, however sounds like it is sitting there as a molten glob, is it even possible to clean that up? I’ve had relatives like this, not good.


54 posted on 05/15/2012 12:11:03 PM PDT by Andrei Bulba (No Obama, no way)
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To: yank in the UK
And we ALL know what's coming next...


55 posted on 05/15/2012 12:13:31 PM PDT by SparkyBass
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To: TXnMA

I don’t find anything that shows a boron catch-pan component in this reactor. I do see they ordered up 52 tons of Boron and then later ordered 90 plus tons of Boron-10 from the French and they were mixing it with water and injecting it.

Boron-11 doesn’t do too much as Boron-10 has one less neutron and provides the perfect catch material for the excess neutrons slowing and cooling the reaction.

Of course, injection yields water vapor that is contaminated as it leaves.


56 posted on 05/15/2012 12:19:40 PM PDT by KC Burke (Plain Conservative opinions and common sense correction for thirteen years.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Yes. ENENews is an anti-nuclear site. The story was also posted on Ex-SKF blog, which tends to be more middle of the road. Their thread on that topic is linked below. You might find some of the comments there, interesting.

US Physicist Michio Kaku: "Unit 2 we now know completely liquified"

57 posted on 05/15/2012 12:29:58 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: EyeGuy

Yo Dude,

The word “nip” is pretty derogatory to be using against a good ally.


58 posted on 05/15/2012 12:33:08 PM PDT by ConradofMontferrat (According to mudslimze, my handle is a Hate Crime. Hope they don't like it.)
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To: Vendome
Wonder if there will a loud boom when it reaches magma?

Heading in numerous directions. Already veined all over the ground under the plant. Very, Very bad. They were forced to place thick metal plates on the ground around the plants early on just to be able to get close to the reactor buildings safely. Tepco is also lining the ocean floor near the plant with concrete. That should tell you were some of it is headed. Will unfortunately be quite spectacular when it enters the ocean. A steaming and boiling cauldron that may not end in our live times. And guess where all that steam will be heading ?

59 posted on 05/15/2012 12:35:13 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: yank in the UK
Oops is right.

And just think there are 3 more reactors that are out of control and cannot be fixed. Not to mention, the hundreds of other reactors around the planet, very much capable of this same scenario. This scripture is now possible. The Bible is always correct. It appears that judgement has arrived.

Revelation 16:3 (KJV) 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

I also read some of the comments and this was very interesting.

"think it means it's no longer in the corium 'blob' state but capable of traveling into the earth's mantle in a stream-like state; which is much worse than any previous worst case scenario. There will be no remediation possible; resulting in radiological contamination of underground water-ways (interacting ocean and fresh-water aquifers) within this entire region, for hundreds-of-thousands of years.
Given the amount of energy needed to maintain a liquified condition without significant surface cooling is unusual. Classical thermodynamics has left the building…

60 posted on 05/15/2012 12:38:26 PM PDT by BigFinn (The King is coming and He isn't riding a donkey this time.)
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To: KC Burke; NVDave; yank in the UK
Liquifaction (if it did occur) was only a transient phenomenon -- probably within a day of the initial accident.

Criticality (if it did occur) has long since been quenched by "dilution" of the corium with things like melted concrete, etc.

The largest source of heating was decay of short half-life fission products -- and they are long-since decayed.

BOTTOM LINE: the worst-case occurred, it passed, we survived it, and now temperatures are down below the boiling point of water.

Learning to read is highly recommended...

61 posted on 05/15/2012 12:39:41 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: Shadow44

“Anybody smart enough to know what the ramifications are?”

At this link Dr Mark Sircus’ Blog comments are very interesting and applicable to the disscussion on this thread...
http://blog.imva.info/medicine/reader-responses


62 posted on 05/15/2012 12:46:12 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: Deb
And that’s a bad thing, right?

Not if it comes with a free Frogurt.

63 posted on 05/15/2012 12:46:57 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: JediJones
And that’s a bad thing, right?

Not if it comes with a free Frogurt.

Unless the Frogurt is also completely liquified!

64 posted on 05/15/2012 12:48:03 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: BigFinn
There will be no remediation possible; resulting in radiological contamination of underground water-ways (interacting ocean and fresh-water aquifers) within this entire region, for hundreds-of-thousands of years.

Would you say it's time to crack open your neighbor's skull and feast on the goo inside?

65 posted on 05/15/2012 12:50:08 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: ConradofMontferrat

Maybe in your overwrought sensitivity, you ought to phone up Screen Gems and have them scrub all those McHale’s Navy episodes.


66 posted on 05/15/2012 12:50:18 PM PDT by EyeGuy (Armed, judgmental, fiscally responsible heterosexual.)
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To: TXnMA
Boron will "poison" the reaction and quench it so that the core will stop melting itself. Properly designed Boron catch pans will contain an entire melted core until it solidifies, and will keep it immobile and stable.

That bit of information would have come in very handy ending Hanoi Jane's career about thirty years ago...

67 posted on 05/15/2012 12:50:59 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: NVDave
I don’t believe that any bona-fide nuke operators or objective physics jocks are laughing here, but they’re not running around in circles, yelling “Repent, the end is near!” either.

I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords.

68 posted on 05/15/2012 12:51:34 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: Shadow44
Anybody smart enough to know what the ramifications are?

This is something new for us humans. Unchartered territory. Been following this from the beginning and originally I was middle of the road concerning nuclear power. Saw the positives and the negatives. Unfortunately, now think the negatives far outweigh the positives. Primarily because of the stupidity and corruption of the people charged with handling and preventing these accidents. Mankind does not have enough integrity to properly operate and manage these early nuclear designs. And to think Obama wants Iran to have nuclear power plants. Yeah. Great idea.

At any rate, back to the ramifications. Go to the thread linked above at ex-skf. Read those comments. Some were mine. Also read the comments on the Enenews thead. Some were good. I never ever commented there.

Personally have no intellectual respect for Kaku at all. He bought into that global warming is gonna kill us idiocy, hook, line and sinker. Now what was interesting with his comment, is that #2 apparently experienced 100 % meltdown. Do not know his specific source. Sounds like it might be a news feed or email list that is only for the well connected. No public info backing up his claim yet. Prior to that, Tepco had stated around 50-60 % meltdown of unit #2. Could go into the implications of a 100 % liquification with respect to #2, but quite frankly, if what I suspect happen, actually happened, you may not want to know. The truth will come out in time, until then, be a prepper.


69 posted on 05/15/2012 12:53:14 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: TXnMA
Boron will "poison" the reaction and quench it so that the core will stop melting itself. Properly designed Boron catch pans will contain an entire melted core until it solidifies, and will keep it immobile and stable.

Nobody doesn't like Molten Boron!


70 posted on 05/15/2012 12:55:09 PM PDT by JediJones (From the makers of Romney, Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger 2016. Because the GOP can never go too far left.)
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To: JediJones

Fingers crossed!


71 posted on 05/15/2012 12:56:11 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: yank in the UK

The “PEPSI” Syndrome????


72 posted on 05/15/2012 12:57:07 PM PDT by showme_the_Glory (ILLEGAL: prohibited by law. ALIEN: Owing political allegiance to another country or government)
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To: yank in the UK

See my post #62 on this thread, link here to more info...

At this link Dr Mark Sircus’ Blog comments are very interesting and applicable to the disscussion on this thread...
http://blog.imva.info/medicine/reader-responses


73 posted on 05/15/2012 12:57:21 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: TXnMA

Now you are asking all posters to actually read the linked article and absorb it? Jeeze the traditions of this website are daily being done away with and we are going to hell-ina-handbasket.

I suppose the next thing will be that we have to stay on topic?

Before long, we are going to have to have Onyx, Humblegunner and Laz certify every post before it uploads to the thread?


74 posted on 05/15/2012 12:58:01 PM PDT by KC Burke (Plain Conservative opinions and common sense correction for thirteen years.)
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To: TXnMA; yank in the UK

” Boron will “poison” the reaction and quench it...”

20 Mule Team Borax to the rescue!


75 posted on 05/15/2012 1:09:08 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
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To: cuban leaf
I don’t know if this is “bad enough” though.

With respect to Tokyo and most of Japan, there is a mysterious black soot or dirt appearing in cities near Fukushima and Tokyo. We suspect right now its origin is from the steam fissures around the Fukushima plant. You only occasionally see the steam when its concentration is thick enough. Normally it is too thin to be seen. It contains very fine particles from the soil, Fukushima material disintegrating and corium. It is traveling and depositing all over Japan and soon the West coast US. Its is highly radioactive with numerous hot particles. Japaneses citizens are breathing that into their lungs, right now. Basically they have created an extra fine corium debri field all over Japan. And this is just the beginning of the crisis.

Please note - The above is all IMHO. So take all this with a grain of salt or a tincture of iodide.

76 posted on 05/15/2012 1:14:33 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: NVDave
The RPV’s are immaterial at this point in time. 3 core meltdowns. 3 RPV’s that no longer serve any function, except that they are caps to giant blow holes. The information we actually need, is not attainable or is classified. IE - The locations of the corium masses.
77 posted on 05/15/2012 1:28:13 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape

May just have to move back Oklahoma ....


78 posted on 05/15/2012 1:35:44 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: justa-hairyape
How about iodized (sea) salt..."

(BTW, I hope you are not deluding yourself into thinking the "corium" or any of the radioactive materials at DaiIchi are still in a liquid or vapor state...)

79 posted on 05/15/2012 1:44:01 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: AmonAmarth
think it means it’s no longer in the corium ‘blob’ state but capable of traveling into the earth’s mantle in a stream-like state; which is much worse than any previous worst case scenario.

So vacationing to the Earth's mantle is no longer the safe family weekend getaway it used to be? :)

In all seriousness, it's time to retire the current generation of plants and move forward with thorium reactor technology. It really should have been done decades ago.

80 posted on 05/15/2012 1:47:17 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

Once thinned out to a “stream” would it once more lose criticality and solidify again? Of course it still could chemically leach into the ground once there (oxides and such of uranium, plutonium etc.).


81 posted on 05/15/2012 1:50:04 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Mitt! You're going to have to try harder than that to be "severely conservative" my friend.)
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To: yank in the UK

Fukashima is bad.
But, closer to home, I’m astounded that only a former employee and none of the current management knew that there was 3.5 pounds of bomb grade uranium laying around in Kodak’s basement.

http://www.newser.com/story/145956/in-kodaks-basement-nuclear-reactor.html


82 posted on 05/15/2012 1:50:37 PM PDT by BuffaloJack (End Obama's War On Freedom.)
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To: Vendome

Just moved to Texas myself. Numerous reasons for that move though. Concerning any possible fallout, the Rocky mountains should buy us a little time. IMHO.


83 posted on 05/15/2012 2:04:40 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape

If there had been a melt-down that had gone through the bottom of the reactor, it had to go through the bottom of the RPV first, before it could make it out of the bottom of the drywell.

Meaning: There wouldn’t be any temperature reading on the bottom of the RPV, because the sensors would be gone, along with the steel that makes up the RPV.

The corium is still in the RPV - resting on the bottom, same as happened at TMI.


84 posted on 05/15/2012 2:10:31 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: TXnMA
What is more important is where that liquid core went when the entire core for #2 liquefied quickly. That was game over.
85 posted on 05/15/2012 2:13:26 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape
US Physicist Michio Kaku: "Unit 2 we now know completely liquified"

I have always considered Kaku as a simple minded twit.

86 posted on 05/15/2012 2:16:07 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: NVDave
There are numerous studies that state meltout through RPV cannot be stopped if cooling was lost for the period of time it was lost at Fukushima. It is not even questionable anymore. And the temp sensors are all over the RPV. High, low middle. Lots of places. And almost all the temp sensors for #2 don't work anymore according to Tepco.
87 posted on 05/15/2012 2:17:52 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: justa-hairyape

Point me to these studies, please.


88 posted on 05/15/2012 2:26:22 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: yank in the UK

The atmospheric testing of the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s of Hydrogen bombs was far more problematic for the US mainland. There are significant health hazards in and around the plant, in that the levels of radiation are elevated. Scientists can only guess as to how many additional cancer deaths will be caused by the reactor. It is not going to melt through the earth, nor will it cause a groundwater explosion. I’d worry more about eating seafood caught in that area of the Pacific until they get a handle on exactly how much radiation has been absorbed into the food chain. It’s a mess, and it’s going to take some work to clean it up, but it’s not the major industrial catastrophe that many would want to paint it as. Just like anywhere, there are scientists that want to “study” how bad it is, and “study” mitigation strategies so it is their interests to pump up the numbers and the hysteria.

Believe it or not, radiation is not as bad as many would have you believe and exposure to levels higher than our EPA says is safe, actually reduces your risk of cancer. Like I said, the biggest issue is to move back from the plant, and not eat the seafood until they know how bad the seafood is.

Here’s a few statistics for you:
1) Tuberculosis patients in Canada had numerous chest xrays, and developed lung and breast cancer than the general population.
2) A 1991 study by Johns Hopkins School of public health, in a study of 700,000 shipyard workers where many were exposed to 10 times the levels of radiation as their peers, due to nuclear reactor decommissioning, were had a 25% lower cancer rate than those not exposed.
3)In 1983 apartment buildings were accidentally constructed with massive amounts of Cesium 60, real nasty stuff. After 16 years, the 10,000 people who lived there, only developed 10 cases of cancer, compared to the normal for 10,000 people of 170 cases of cancer. These people were exposed to 5 times what the US government says is safe.


89 posted on 05/15/2012 2:32:31 PM PDT by krogers58
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To: krogers58

#1 should read: Tuberculosis patients subjected to multiple chest X-rays had much lower rates of breast and lung cancer than the general population.


90 posted on 05/15/2012 2:35:01 PM PDT by krogers58
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To: justa-hairyape

Regardless of where the temp sensors are placed on the RPV, if the steel of the RPV became hot enough to melt through at any point on the RPV, you wouldn’t be seeing any temp readings in the sub-100C range. The melting point of steel is 1400C+, the thermal conductivity of steel is pretty good, which means that the sensors up top would have shown a significant upwards departure if the core were melting through the bottom.

This is the sort of stuff that really annoys us engineers. People don’t think about what/how the whole system would be acting if these apocalyptic events came to pass. As a result of this thread, I went back and looked at the temp readings on the various reactors and it looks like they achieved cold shutdown. Do they have problems? Heck yes. They have thousands of tons of contaminated cooling water to dispose of, for starters. The place is still a collection of large-scale wrecks. They still have seismic hazards from an apparent increase in quake activity over the long-term in their area.

But this constant “the world is going to end!” stuff spouted by non-engineers since the beginning.... is just so tedious. Even IF (and I don’t expect it to happen by a long shot) there were a core melt-through event, the planet will be just fine. Consider how much worse events the planet has survived before this. There’s nothing man-made that can compare to something like a super-volcano blowing up - not even if you dug a hole and dumped every nuke weapon into it could you duplicate what will happen when the Yellowstone Caldera blows it’s top.

The Russians blew up a 50 MEGA-ton bomb during the era of above-ground nuke testing. And we’re still here. 50 MT is a big firecracker. Really big. Lots of fallout. We’re still here.

Consider for a moment how the sensor data showed itself during the Columbia space shuttle disaster for an example of what I speak. First they noticed some hydraulic actuator temps going high - abnormally high for that point in the mission. Then they noticed yet more temp sensors go high. Then they noticed other temp sensors go “low, off-scale” - probably as a result of the destruction of the sensors. Then temps in the wheel wells went ape. Then... nothing.

It started as one little punch-through in the leading edge of a wing... but the impending doom was seen in cascade of sensor information. The shuttle didn’t just go from a shuttle to a collection of melted-down bits in the blink of an eye. The telemetry told the tale of the disaster’s progress.

If a melt-through actually were to happen at Fukushima, you’d see similar results in the telemetry. And we’re just not. I don’t understand how anyone could make the claim that we’re going to see an event like that happen and yet we’re not going to see confirmation on more than one sensor....


91 posted on 05/15/2012 2:46:41 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: NVDave

Read most of them months ago. Will dig out the links for you later and post here. Surprised that you have not yet discovered that you were wrong about non-breach of RPV containment. Most of the rest of the world assumes that all three RPV’s have been breached. You do realize I was not referring to a CV breach in that comment. The RPV was never ever designed to stop a near complete meltdown. And we have confirmation from Tepco of 70-80 % meltdown in #1 and #3. They had admitted a 50-60 % meltdown of #2 until the KooKoo bird (Kaku) squawked. Stopping a near complete meltdown was the job of the CV not the RPV.


92 posted on 05/15/2012 2:48:27 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: NVDave
Dont have time to read your whole post right now. Got to run. Will read it in detail later.

Let me state though - They have been dumping tons of water into RPV shells that have almost all their core material melted down. That has been going on for well over a year. We know for a fact that the melted cores had to melt out through the bottom of the RPV. It was not designed to stop that much of a meltdown. By now, they better have the temperature of the empty shells down. The water cooling was a farce from the beginning. Remember when they were dumping water from helicopters to try to cool the SFP. That was all for show. Ridiculously stupid. They are simply cooling spent RPV shells. Big deal. Great accomplishment. Hey lets all have a Cold Shutdown Party :>

93 posted on 05/15/2012 2:57:28 PM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: Art in Idaho

bfl. thanks!


94 posted on 05/15/2012 3:02:02 PM PDT by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: AmonAmarth

I occurred to me that other materials in the vicinity will be melted and become part of the alloy mix.

Eventually, I think that the nuke fuel will be diluted by other materials until the reaction slows and the blob cools/solidifies.

Not saying that this is not a serious disaster.

Last weekend I took my radiation survey meter to the grocery store. It registered a little at the shelves of canned tuna....slightly alarming.


95 posted on 05/15/2012 3:05:44 PM PDT by darth
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To: NVDave
This is but a small sample of the craters from nuke tests detonated right here in the US at our Nevada Test Site. (Frenchman's Flats, just SW of Area 51/Groom Lake)

Most of those shown are slump/collapses of underground shots -- but they all vented radioactive material. However, at the north end of the valey is the "Sedan" test crater (the big, bluish "moon crater"( that dumped fallout over several states -- enough to kill livestock quickly...

~~~~~~~~~

(Hey -- this is home turf to you; I'm "preaching to the choir...")

96 posted on 05/15/2012 4:21:49 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: yank in the UK; tomdavidd; Freeper; Gvl_M3; Flotsam_Jetsome; Berlin_Freeper; Hotlanta Mike; ...
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Important.

. . . . Click on original Article, then # 28 , # 35 .

http://enenews.com/physicist-unit-2-completely-liquified-100-liquification-of-uranium-core-weve-never-seen-this-before-in-the-history-of-nuclear-power-video

("When knowledgeable physicists are worried, there’s a problem.")

97 posted on 05/15/2012 8:17:56 PM PDT by LucyT
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To: Shadow44; ShadowAce
Anybody smart enough to know what the ramifications are?

Anyone know?

98 posted on 05/15/2012 8:24:18 PM PDT by GOPJ ( "A Dog In Every Pot" - freeper ETL)
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To: NVDave; All

What is your estimated maximum temperature reached?


99 posted on 05/15/2012 8:49:35 PM PDT by Graewoulf ((Dictator Baby-Doc Barack's obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND U.S. Constitution.))
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To: yank in the UK
This is garbage news, and the guy is just promoting his TV show.

About 1/3 of the core at Three Mile Island 'liquefied' during the accident. Even if the entire core liquefied in Japan (probably true with the amount of time they went with no cooling), it ain't liquid today. It's now a rock-solid ball of bad stuff that will have to be chiseled out and disposed of just like the Three Mile Island core was.

The China Syndrome was always just a movie.

100 posted on 05/15/2012 8:55:10 PM PDT by Ditto (Nov 2, 2010 -- Partial cleaning accomplished. More trash to remove in 2012)
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