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Report casts doubt on E15 use in cars & trucks {Extra Ethanol in Gasoline}
Fuel Fix ^ | May 16, 2012 | Jennifer A. Dlouhy

Posted on 05/16/2012 10:42:20 AM PDT by thackney

Automakers and the oil industry released a report today that casts doubt on the safety of gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol and shows that at least some engines running the fuel suffered damage during recent testing.

But ethanol backers and the Obama administration immediately countered that the study was fundamentally flawed, because it used engines with known durability issues” and didn’t include control group testing of the 10 percent ethanol blend that is now the standard at filling stations nationwide.

The dispute is the latest round in a long-running fight over the 15 percent ethanol fuel blend known as E15. A 2007 energy law mandated 36 billion gallons of renewable fuels be used by 2022, and the Environmental Protection Agency in 2010 approved the sale of E15 for model year 2001 and newer cars and light trucks. The agency did not clear E15 for use in older vehicles, boats or other devices, such as lawn and garden equipment.

In the new oil industry and automaker-funded study, the not-for-profit Coordinating Research Council tested eight specific engines (28 in all) from vehicles spanning model years 2001 through 2009. Researchers ran the engines for 500 hours under conditions representing about 100,000 miles of driving while fueling them with ethanol-free gasoline, the E15 blend containing 15 percent ethanol and a variety comprising 20 percent ethanol.

Two of the eight engines showed damage while running on E15, according to the study. Specifically, both of those auto engines showed leaking cylinders. Subsequent analysis by their original manufacturers revealed damage to intake valve seats, possibly causing the leakage.

One of the eight engines running E15 also failed emissions tests.

American Petroleum Institute President Jack Gerard said that the study results reveal millions of cars are at risk of damage from E15.

“Not all vehicles in the CRC tests showed engine damage, but engine types that did are found in millions of cars and light duty trucks now on America’s roads,” Gerard said. “We believe there’s at least as a minimum, 5 million that are subject to damage as a result of this rule, and we believe that is a conservative estimate.”

Automakers said the metallurgy and makeup of the engines that had valve leakage could foreshadow problems with similar vehicle engines, including some just now rolling off the assembly line.

Federal regulators and ethanol boosters panned the study. In a blog post, the Department of Energy, which conducted its own testing before the EPA approved E15 in 2010, provided a laundry list of criticisms:

None of the engines were tested with E10, which would have provided a better baseline for comparison, since it is the “de facto standard” representing more than 90 percent of gasoline available in the U.S. market. Instead, the vehicle engines were run on E20, E15 and an ethanol-free gasoline.

The engine test cycle, which was designed specifically for this study, was specifically designed to stress the engine valve train. Since the test method hasn’t been used in other studies, there’s no clear way to interpret the results, the Energy Department said.

The standard for measuring engine leakdown — and deeming it as having “failed” — is not a standard used by automakers and federal agencies for warranty claims or other uses.

The Energy Department also said the study included “Several engines already known to have durability issues, including one that was subject to a recall involving valve problems” when running on E10 and ethanol-free fuels. “It is no surprise that an engine having problems with traditional fuels might also fail with E15 or E20,” the Energy Department said.

Bob Dinneen, the president of the Renewable Fuels Association, characterized the study as misleading.

“By funding research using questionable testing protocols and illegal fuels, the results of this study are meaningless,” Dinneen said. The study results “only serve to further muddy the waters and shun the overwhelming desire of 75 percent of Americans for greater choice at the pump.”


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: biofuels; corn; energy; ethanol; gasoline; mtba; ntsa; stfu
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1 posted on 05/16/2012 10:42:22 AM PDT by thackney
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To: thackney
Looking for a certain result?? Ask the government boot lickers to do the testing.

Ain't that right Mr. Gore??

2 posted on 05/16/2012 10:45:41 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: thackney
They WANT to destroy your engine.

That way you have to buy another vehicle built by union goons.

3 posted on 05/16/2012 10:49:54 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Do I really need a sarcasm tag? Seriously? You're that dense?)
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To: Sacajaweau

An average car running 10% ethanol removes as many calories from the food chain in a year as it would take to keep two people alive for that same year. That is the caloric value of the ethanol consumed by the engine.


4 posted on 05/16/2012 10:53:02 AM PDT by LOC1 (Let's pick the best, not settle for a compromise.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

They WANT to destroy your engine.

That way you have to buy another vehicle built by union goons.


Not only that but E15, (I am told), is death to most small engines, lawnmowers and such. Imagine owning a Zero-turn mower that costs between $3K and $7K and having the engine destroyed by E15 Gas.

On the other hand there is a huge market opening up for a Gasoline additive especially formulated to keep these small engines running properly for use with E15 Gasoline.


5 posted on 05/16/2012 10:56:32 AM PDT by The Working Man
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
My ATV manual says not to use alcohol in the fuel. I had to fix the carb in my chainsaw because or the eco terrorists and their e10. Let a chain saw set in the sun and get warm and it will not start. Open the gas cap and watch the alcohol boil out. Open a 5 gallon can of gas on a hot day and it may boil over on you. Fire Hazard, not to the EPA.
6 posted on 05/16/2012 10:56:36 AM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: LOC1
An average car running 10% ethanol removes as many calories from the food chain in a year as it would take to keep two people alive for that same year.

I don't care for the ethanol in fuel, but it is tough to claim that was removed from the food chain. More corn is grown because of the ethanol demand and much of it first is processed for cattle feed (DDG) and the remainder used for fuel.

7 posted on 05/16/2012 10:57:11 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

It costs more but I use ethanol free gas in my mowers;

http://pure-gas.org/


8 posted on 05/16/2012 10:57:22 AM PDT by Hillarys Gate Cult (Liberals make unrealistic demands on reality and reality doesn't oblige them.)
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To: thackney
Ethanol is particularly damaging to small engines (outboards, mowers, etc...)

E10 has already destroyed my push mower and clobbered my weed-wacker (plastic fuel lines got brittle and shattered), and I haven't been able to get my chainsaw to start lately. And, I'm definitely in fear for my Evinrude 50...

So far, the riding mower seems to be OK...

&%$#^ Eco-weenies!!!!

9 posted on 05/16/2012 10:58:48 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: LOC1

How many people do you figure are kept alive by corn starch?


10 posted on 05/16/2012 11:00:23 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: thackney

What about testing on motorcycles? E15 cannot be good for those engines.


11 posted on 05/16/2012 11:02:28 AM PDT by sigzero
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To: thackney

even the blend they sell now breaks down in month, I have to add a nine dollar can of stabilizer to every tank I fill.


12 posted on 05/16/2012 11:03:21 AM PDT by 4buttons
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To: The Working Man
On the other hand there is a huge market opening up for a Gasoline additive especially formulated to keep these small engines running properly for use with E15 Gasoline.

Avgas is the answer. 100LL will keep your mower happy. Good thing you never need more than a few gallons at a time...

13 posted on 05/16/2012 11:03:23 AM PDT by Oberon (Big Brutha Be Watchin'.)
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To: mountainlion
These are government experts who are making engineering decisions, even though they were political science and psychology majors in college, since calculus was too hard. They're the best and brightest, just like the ones who knew better than Eugene Stoner and his engineering specifications for the M-16. Who cared if the government used a different powder in the ammo, since there was so much of it left over from WWII and Korea. And then there were the geniuses in government who assumed the design of a direct impingement action meant "self cleaning," so M-16s were shipped into the field without cleaning kits. Oh, and the chrome plated chambers called for in the specs? Too expensive, so get rid of it from the production models.

I wonder how many of our guys were killed in Viet Nam because of "government experts" and what they did to Eugene Stoner's M-16?

Mark

14 posted on 05/16/2012 11:05:26 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: TXnMA

No boat owners I know use E-10 without adding a stabilizer that isn’t cheap or only use ethanol free gas. A few years ago E-10 was determined to be a death sentence for many older boat motors. It later came out that it was also taking out new ones.


15 posted on 05/16/2012 11:06:36 AM PDT by Hillarys Gate Cult (Liberals make unrealistic demands on reality and reality doesn't oblige them.)
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To: Hillarys Gate Cult

Not only in my mower, but also my 2006 Chevy Trailblazer-and I have to fill up every 3 days.


16 posted on 05/16/2012 11:07:42 AM PDT by Spirit of Liberty (http://www.honorflight.org)
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To: mountainlion

I have experienced the boiling over a couple of times. I never realized it was due to the ethanol.


17 posted on 05/16/2012 11:08:55 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Do I really need a sarcasm tag? Seriously? You're that dense?)
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To: thackney
I'd have to guess that most vehicles are not rated/designed to run E-15. It will kill most older engines. You know, the ones that run like a tank.
The alcohol, aside from disturbing (slowing down) the fuel burn timing is also hygroscopic. It absorbs water into the fuel.

They took eight engines and damaged two, %25 failure rate. These are also new engines, a study does no good with used parts.

Lawnmowers need to be drained in the fall due to the additives in the gas absorbing water over the winter. Fixed many a broken mower for others by knowing this simple fact.
18 posted on 05/16/2012 11:10:12 AM PDT by allmost
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To: TXnMA

carburetors and fuel pumps with rubber diaphragms will not stand up. There is no damage to the engine itself. fuel lines are not a problem to replace on small engines. The gas tank is in close proximity to the engine and the lines are easily accessible.


19 posted on 05/16/2012 11:11:05 AM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: Oberon

Maybe in the higher compression overhead valve engines. The last time I tried it in the old L-head Briggs, the lead deposits built up to the point that the valves would not shut.

LL stands for “Lots-o-lead.” (^;


20 posted on 05/16/2012 11:12:21 AM PDT by Clay Moore (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: MarkL
If dumb politicians died for their own mistakes in stead of causing the deaths of others they would think twice.
21 posted on 05/16/2012 11:16:04 AM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: mamelukesabre

The problem is that the alcohol has a high octane. It is mixed into the fuel and falls out of suspension when it absorbs 5%(?) water by volume. Then your octane drops significantly and detonation occurs.


22 posted on 05/16/2012 11:22:39 AM PDT by Clay Moore (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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And to think.. Tpaw mandated E-20 for those of us in Minnesota..

we can get E0 but it’s only sold as premium for collector cars and small engines.

BTW, my 01 Venture van and 02 Express are “collector cars” in my book.

So far, only one station questioned me. I said “do you want to sell fuel or not?” they turned the pump on.


23 posted on 05/16/2012 11:32:07 AM PDT by cableguymn
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To: thackney

I keep records of all my fuel purchaces in my 2 vehicles.

Doing so tells me when I need to change spark plugs, etc. I change oil, filters, on a very regular basis.

The 10% Ethanol used to be just a part of the year additive. I could tell exactly when it was in the tank based on my mileage. My mileage drops between 10% and 13% with that fuel added to regular gasoline.

I have had one vehicle since 1991 and one since 1986. I have all those records.


24 posted on 05/16/2012 11:36:30 AM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: thackney

The fuel cap on my Prius C reads “E15-E85” with a circle around it and a bar through it. That’s fairly explicit to me what should NOT be going in the tank.


25 posted on 05/16/2012 11:44:06 AM PDT by mikey_hates_everything
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To: thackney

E10 is bad enough.

Engine skips, sputters, acts like it’s vapor locked when it gets hot.


26 posted on 05/16/2012 11:44:20 AM PDT by Iron Munro (If you want total security, go to prison. The only thing lacking is freedom - Dwight D. Eisenhower)
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To: mikey_hates_everything
Nothing more than E-10 on your prius gas cap?
27 posted on 05/16/2012 11:49:55 AM PDT by allmost
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To: Clay Moore

and gas without the octane boosting ethanol doesn’t?


28 posted on 05/16/2012 11:52:17 AM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: sigzero

I made the mistake of putting some E10 in my motorcycle and it took several tanks of pure premium gasoline and some fuel system cleaner to getting it running right again. Ethanol is crap no matter what percentage of it is mixed with gasoline.


29 posted on 05/16/2012 11:53:05 AM PDT by Jay Redhawk
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To: thackney
On a recent trip from Montana to California I tanked up my 2012 Silverado on E15. My fuel mileage dropped from 24 MPG (read on my trip computer, flat road, speed control set at 80 MPH) to 14 MPG. How can reducing fuel mileage by almost 50% help us save resources?
30 posted on 05/16/2012 11:55:19 AM PDT by Ben Mugged ("Life's tough..... It's even tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
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To: Jay Redhawk

Newer motorcycles are built to supposedly tolerate ethanolated fuels. That might not be the case for ones built before the ethanol craze.


31 posted on 05/16/2012 11:55:39 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Mitt! You're going to have to try harder than that to be "severely conservative" my friend.)
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To: Ben Mugged

It sounds like the onboard computer wasn’t programmed for fuel with that much ethanol. It couldn’t tell it from bad gas and pessimistic parameters were used. You’d sacrifice something in energy content with an extra 5% ethanol, but that much makes no engineering sense.


32 posted on 05/16/2012 11:57:51 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Mitt! You're going to have to try harder than that to be "severely conservative" my friend.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I hopte that is true. Mine is a 1999 model Honda.


33 posted on 05/16/2012 11:59:41 AM PDT by Jay Redhawk
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To: HiTech RedNeck

The Silverado has a badge on the tailgate that advertises “flex fuel vehicle”. That is supposed to indicate a seamless transition between fuel types does it not?


34 posted on 05/16/2012 12:00:54 PM PDT by Ben Mugged ("Life's tough..... It's even tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
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To: thackney

There definately is an impact on the food chain costs.

More and more farmers are plowing under their crops, including alfalfa, which has MULTIPLE cuttings every year in favor of corn for Ethanol.

Such alfalfa is fed to dairy cows, hence it impacts all dairy products. Some alfalfa is fed to beef cows & sheep also.

It is just nuts to burn our food scources and use land for other than food production, IMO.


35 posted on 05/16/2012 12:10:33 PM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
That way you have to buy another vehicle built by union goons.

Union built vehicles are an ever-shrinking fraction of the total sold in the US - unless you include Korean based unions in the count.

36 posted on 05/16/2012 12:14:52 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: thackney

Only confirming my suspicion of several years!

My bike is a two-stroke, E15 = seizure, and I just had it rebuilt.

None of my cars will run on it, and it will destroy the carbs, including my expensive Weber units.

This is the Eco-Nut plan, force ALL the older cars and bikes off the road by eliminating the availability of suitable fuel.

I wonder how the guys paying BIG bucks for classics will feel about that?

Oh, and running Av-Gas is actually illegal as it avoids the road tax.
It’s also a “Dry” fuel, so may have it’s own issues with some engines.


37 posted on 05/16/2012 12:17:39 PM PDT by Loyal Sedition
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To: Ben Mugged

Yes flex fuel can run from E0 to E85.

My SIL has a flex fuel Chevy, his calculations indicate E10 is the lowest cost alternative per mile.

E85 is too expensive relative to the energy content.


38 posted on 05/16/2012 12:17:46 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: mountainlion
My ATV manual says not to use alcohol in the fuel.

That's interesting. I have a 97 Polaris that's run fine on E10 since the day I bought it new.

39 posted on 05/16/2012 12:19:18 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: TXnMA

I’m not convinced ethanol has anything to do with those fuel lines, I think it’s cheap Chinese sourced polymers. Have had enough of them fail myself I bought a bulk coil of replacement line.


40 posted on 05/16/2012 12:21:24 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: Loyal Sedition

Avgas has lead so it’s more problematic than just the road tax.
It’s trouble for the cat converter.


41 posted on 05/16/2012 12:24:15 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: mountainlion

Kind of hard to think twice if you’re dead. sd


42 posted on 05/16/2012 12:46:30 PM PDT by shotdog (I love my country. It's our government I'm afraid of.)
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To: mountainlion

Kind of hard to think twice if you’re dead. sd


43 posted on 05/16/2012 12:46:35 PM PDT by shotdog (I love my country. It's our government I'm afraid of.)
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To: nascarnation

I need to correct my original post. I meant to type E85 instead of E15.


44 posted on 05/16/2012 12:52:28 PM PDT by Ben Mugged ("Life's tough..... It's even tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
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To: nascarnation

Not an issue for me, I refuse to drive anything new enough to require a computer in order to run.

These idiots are pushing us closer to the “Third Box”!


45 posted on 05/16/2012 12:57:07 PM PDT by Loyal Sedition
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To: nascarnation
I have a 95 Polaris 425. The alcohol evaporates and dissolves the $100 diaphragm in the carb. I can see alcohol bubbles in the fuel filter while it is running. If it gets too warm there are too many bubbles and the engine vapor locks and stops.
46 posted on 05/16/2012 1:03:25 PM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: mountainlion
I have a 71 Norton with a fiberglass tank. (Luckily it's in storage.) Ethanol will eventually eat through it. Before I can put it on the road again, I have to buy an expensive epoxy sealer and coat the inside of the tank.

Ethanol has raised the price of metal Norton tanks to almost $500.

47 posted on 05/16/2012 1:08:35 PM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: thackney

You don’t have to process corn to be able to feed it to cows. If is a high calorie cattle feed as grown.

All the processing does is remove calories, which are turned into ethanol. The remaining cattle feed, which did not need processing in the first place is lower in calories.

Corn prices in my part of the world have gone from $2.65 for 50 pounds of corn prior to ethanol in gasoline to $10.20 now. That increase is much more than the increase in energy costs over the same time period.

Food costs are only about 15% of disposable income in the US, but may be 40-50% of disposable income in other parts of the world.

When corn prices increase, because it is used to make ethanol, someone somewhere cannot no longer afford food.

And no, I don’t mean that people eat hard corn, just that many of the calories in that hard corn are being burned in our cars.

Do the calculations yourself. Average fleet mileage is about 20 miles per gallon. Annual average mileage is about 12,000 miles. That means each car is burning about 60 gallons of ethanol per year. Look up the caloric content of ethanol and see how many calories were burned in that car.


48 posted on 05/16/2012 1:36:15 PM PDT by LOC1 (Let's pick the best, not settle for a compromise.)
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To: thackney
Will the government foot the bill for the engine damage done by this mandate and will Government Motors continue to honor the warranties of its vehicles when the owner's manual specifically says that no more than E10 can be used as fuel.
49 posted on 05/16/2012 1:36:26 PM PDT by The Great RJ
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To: mountainlion

Based on that you’d be better off running E0.

http://pure-gas.org/

or if you’re not using that many gallons, racing gas may actually be more available depending on your location


50 posted on 05/16/2012 1:46:46 PM PDT by nascarnation
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