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By what right do rights trump laws?
Renew America ^ | 3-28-12 | Alan Keyes

Posted on 05/28/2012 6:21:53 PM PDT by ReformationFan

The headline read "3 in 4 say religious rights trump law." The article went on to explain that "In the Knights of Columbus-Marist Poll, nearly three in four Americans, 74 percent, said freedom of religion should be protected 'even if it conflicts with other laws.'" The juxtaposition of the headline and the explanation provide a perfect illustration of the way in which rights and freedoms are carelessly conflated these days, in a way that could have very damaging unintended consequences.

For example, if religious freedom per se trumps other laws, what about the so-called "honor killing" permitted by Islamic law in which a woman who has brought "shame" to her family is murdered to preserve family "purity"? Would the revival of human sacrifice, including the ritual slaughter of children, trump laws against murder? The ancient Greek historian Herodotus speaks of a people in the ancient near east who considered it a sign of reverence to eat the flesh of a dead parent as part of the ritual commemorating the death. Could neo-pagans seeking to revive this practice claim that their religious freedom forbids enforcing laws against the desecration of corpses in order to discourage their practice of cannibalism?

I think we can take it for granted that most Americans will react to these examples with feelings of revulsion. But as we know from the ongoing campaign to enforce acceptance of homosexuality, a small minority can use or abuse arguments that assert "rights" to demand acceptance of their behavior no matter how most other people feel.

(Excerpt) Read more at renewamerica.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: alankeyes; conscience; homosexualagenda; keyes; naturalright; religiousliberty

1 posted on 05/28/2012 6:22:02 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: ReformationFan
Isn't there some kind of fancy term for comparing things that are nothing alike — like Catholic practices and Muslim barbarity?
2 posted on 05/28/2012 6:34:44 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: BenLurkin

Irrationality.


3 posted on 05/28/2012 6:36:23 PM PDT by RWB Patriot ("My ability is a value that must be purchased and I don't recognize anyone's need as a claim on me.")
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To: RWB Patriot

Liberalism - same thing.


4 posted on 05/28/2012 6:37:33 PM PDT by Pollster1 (“A boy becomes a man when a man is needed.” - John Steinbeck)
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To: ReformationFan
Alan was once someone I respected.

/johnny

5 posted on 05/28/2012 6:46:27 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ReformationFan
By what right do rights trump laws?

Loss of critical thinking skills has wrecked the country.

Even with Keyes, which is surprising. In the article, he actually tries to equate gay "rights" with allowing murder. What rot.

The limitations on religion come from the definition of religion. Under the 1st Amendment, the definition of religion does not include allowing the killing of non-believers, or the enslaving of women or non-believers.

"Gay rights" are unconsitutional in that they are special rights designed solely to benefit people depending on who they like to f**k. Needless to say, there isn't a whole lot of historical legal support for such an argument, except against gays. However consider the pissy solution gays have come up with - they were harmed by laws illegalizing them, so they are trying to hurt their own society by illegalizing it in favor of them. It never occurs to these morons that imbalance is imbalance - or that they are trying to destroy a country that did acknowledge their sexual freedoms (despite the loathing of many of its people for them), rather than just destroying them like everywhere else.

Fact is, most, if not all, of the "modern" legal issues came about by the misuse or selective enforcement of laws that were already on the books. But instead of dealing with that issue of corruption, it was spun into getting ignorant people to believe that we needed a whole new set of laws for each issue.

Accepting that concept is where we went off the cliff.

6 posted on 05/28/2012 6:48:37 PM PDT by Talisker (He who commands, must obey.)
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To: ReformationFan

The muslim religion is a religion by name only. This religion should be listed as a subversive organization. Their stated duty is to overthrow the United States government and establish their on in it’s place.


7 posted on 05/28/2012 6:50:32 PM PDT by jyro (French-like Democrats wave the white flag of surrender while we are winning)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Me, too. The logical and philosophical fallacies in this piece are stunning. Sigh.

Hint: A right to be left alone - not forced to do something such as pay for abortions - is entirely different from a right to kill someone under the rubric of “religion.” In every respect.


8 posted on 05/28/2012 6:52:24 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: ReformationFan

First, only individual persons have rights.
States do not have states rights.
Churches do not have rights. The individual persons in those churches are the possessors of rights.
Businesses don’t have rights. The individuals involved in that business have rights.

Second, rights come from God/natural law. They do not come from government. The actions of individuals in government and individuals in other institutions can abridge/violate those rights. But they can’t “take them away”.

The Constitution provides for ‘abridging’ those rights with due cause and due process. Thus certain rights can be abridged upon probable cause.


9 posted on 05/28/2012 7:04:32 PM PDT by spintreebob
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To: ReformationFan
Our Constitutional RIGHTS are woven into the foundational matrix of the U.S. Code.

So when new laws or stated policy violate those Constitutional GUARANTEES --

At that time -- those who wrote them, passed them, signed them, and/or adopted them, etc...have made an error!

BY DEFINITION AND "FOUNDATIONAL" PRINCIPLES AND PRECEDENT:

THEY ARE PLAYING OUT OF BOUNDS

All this smoke screen and BS about "the rights don't trump laws"...
... the RIGHTS were established at the get-go...

Therefore... the correctly framed surmise is stated thusly:

THESE LAWS(POLICIES).... CANNOT... TRUMP OUR RIGHTS....

********

What if...
You built an upstairs addition to the side of your house...
...but it was cantilevered to far outside the strength of the vertical structure points supported by the foundation...
....and it wasn't initially setback correctly from the property line...

So it lets go and falls to the ground soon after it is painted and furnished... no one was injured.... BUT...
--With some of the debris flopping over into the neighbor's yard.... it damaged his fence on the way down....

Would you then say...
"THE ROOM HAS PRIORITY OVER THE FOUNDATION!!"
--or--

"WHY DIDN'T THE FOUNDATION SUPPORT THE NEW ROOM ADDITION--THAT'S NOT FAIR?"

********

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say:

THE NEW ADDITION WAS BUILT TO FAR OUTSIDE THE FOUNDATION!!
--and/or--

THE BASIC STRUCTURE COULDN'T HOLD THE WEIGHT OF THE NEW CONSTRUCTION... --or--

THE WHOLE DARN THING WAS TOO FAR OVER THE PROPERTY LINE TO BEGIN WITH......

**********

The preezy should:

(1)IMMEDIATELY-- CLEAN UP THE MESS HE MADE...

(2) FIX THE FENCE AS GOOD AS NEW....

--AND-- MOST OF ALL

3) LEARN TO MAKE NICE WITH THE NEIGHBORS---
THE HE WON'T GET SUED!!!

Just my $.02
Have a nice day...

10 posted on 05/28/2012 7:06:51 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: Wings-n-Wind

Don’t get me started.... ROFL


11 posted on 05/28/2012 7:08:45 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: ReformationFan

At the risk of getting flamed, I’m going to weigh in on this discussion.

Alan Keyes forgets the one rule that is common to most religions (Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism)... Life is sacred and is to be protected above all else.

Judaism teaches that one is allowed to violate virtually any religious edict in order to protect life. I’m sure that other, reasonable, religions do the same.

Once you get that in your head, the rest of the article is easy to parse.
Honor killings - no
Abortion - no
Eating the dead flesh of your parents - gross but does not violate the overriding goal of protecting life
“Just” War doctrine - situaiton requires careful analysis (can do more harm than good)
Peyote or “magic mushrooms” - no... damages the user, can hurt others if the user drives, has access to weapons, etc.

Protecting life can be the yardstick by which we measure actions taken in the name of religion.


12 posted on 05/28/2012 7:14:39 PM PDT by MS from the OC (Obama taking credit for killing OBL is like Nixon taking credit for landing on the moon, John Bolton)
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To: spintreebob
First, only individual persons have rights. States do not have states rights.

I say that a lot around here, but no-one seems to hear. I'm glad someone gets it, and I'm not kicking that dead whale down the beach by myself.

/johnny

13 posted on 05/28/2012 7:25:05 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ReformationFan
There is indeed a problem with claiming that some people are exempt from the reach of federal jurisdiction by virtue of belonging to an organized religion.

People should be outraged that any private company can be compelled to offer insurance services against their will - whether it applies to a religious organization should be irrelevant.

Catholics should be opposed to this overreach of federal power regardless - not seeking special dispensation for themselves.
14 posted on 05/28/2012 7:26:34 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: spintreebob
Actually, I generally say that "States have powers, people have rights and powers"

/johnny

15 posted on 05/28/2012 7:28:04 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ReformationFan

A lot of Muslim morals are not against the law and we would have no business forcing them to act immorally. I don’t know if they beleive in birth control and abortion or not. They can not murder, mutulate, enslave or terrorize people in America. Neither can Christians. Neither can atheists. Neither can homos, atheists, Satanists, earth firsters nor vegans.

Obama pardoned Muslims from health care mandates in the Bill no one read. He did that because he knew it was a violation of their religious freedom to place immoral health care mandates on them.

Homos should find some respect for religous freedom and back off. People don’t have to approve of their sexual behavior and lifestyle nor do people have to redesign heterosexual family and marriage into a homosexual thing. People don’t even have to like homosexuals or anyone else.

Christians are not going to be bossed around by homos and they are not going to use government force to redefine other people’s religion to serve their own perversions. If this were the case, we could have murder activists fighting against religion for rejecting murder.

Freedom of religion is protected under the constitution. Sexual behavior or any behavior is not assigned rights in the constitution. The people get to decide what they beleive and value, not the government and not atheists.


16 posted on 05/28/2012 7:31:17 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: andyk

“Catholics should be opposed to this overreach of federal power regardless - not seeking special dispensation for themselves.”

Why would you say that Catholics are seeking special dispensation for themselves?


17 posted on 05/28/2012 7:45:53 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: spintreebob
The Constitution provides for ‘abridging’ those rights with due cause and due process. Thus certain rights can be abridged upon probable cause.

Beg to differ.

Rights are absolute and cannot be abridged.

However, not every claim that "rights" apply is valid. People often try to claim that a certain practice is protected by a right when it is not.

Thus, to use the cliche, the right to freedom of speech does not protect (falsely) crying "Fire" in a theater. It is speech, but not protected speech.

18 posted on 05/28/2012 7:46:35 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (,)
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To: BenLurkin

The First Amendment was never intended to apply to mohammedism, hinduism, or any of that whacko crap.

It was intended to apply only to Christianity and Judaism. You know, the real religions.


19 posted on 05/28/2012 7:47:49 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Actually, /johhmy, a lot of us get it. We just don’t comment because you say what need said...


20 posted on 05/28/2012 7:51:24 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Actually, /johhmy, a lot of us get it. We just don’t comment because you say what needs said...


21 posted on 05/28/2012 7:52:08 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: jyro
The muslim religion is a religion by name only.

Classic example of trying to force other religions into a mold with which we are familiar. Jesus said to pay unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, which led to a tradition that the religious and secular areas of life are or at least can be separate.

Islam just isn't like that. It allows for no such separation.

That doesn't mean it is not a religion, just that it is a different type of religion than Christianity.

22 posted on 05/28/2012 7:52:13 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (,)
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To: piytar
And it's much safer to let ME say stuff that may bring a lightning bolt from on high. ;)

/johnny

23 posted on 05/28/2012 8:06:03 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: dsc
Why would you say that Catholics are seeking special dispensation for themselves?

Well to be fair, it's not just Catholics - they are just front and center in the war waged by Obama against private enterprise. They seek to exempt themselves from rules that they should be opposed to as a general overreach of our federal government, and not based on the 1st amendment.

As I said in my post, I believe it is crazy to think that the 1st amendment was ever intended to exempt some people from the power and jurisdiction of the fedgov, and not others.

Their opposition accepts that the fedgov can tell other private organizations what insurance to offer, but not one of organized religion. I think that's a shame.
24 posted on 05/28/2012 8:18:28 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: ReformationFan
Here's a 30 second thought experiment that shows how foolish, dangerous, and wrong the notion is that religious rights/beliefs trump laws.

What makes a religion? Someone's beliefs right? Well, how big does a religion have to be (in terms of followers) to be recognized for it's "rights?" After all, you don't want to discriminate. Suppose I declare myself a religion of one, and ordain myself. I can claim any old screwy thing is part of my "religion" and I have to be allowed to do it if religious rights trump laws.

In other words, as soon as you accept the notion that religious rights trump laws, all laws, ALL LAWS, become effectively null and void. More proof you have to be very careful throwing around the term "right"... However, the left sure seems to like to scream and yell about their "rights." Most of which translate into someone else claiming a "right" to our money/time/resources and claiming ever-growing control over our lives.

Religious rights transcending laws? No thank you, flawed premise rejected.

25 posted on 05/28/2012 8:38:49 PM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: ReformationFan

Certain basic human rights - the kind laid out in the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, the BILL OF RIGHTS and in the thoughts of the philosophers of the AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT which spawned America as a free nation, should ALWAYS trump ANY laws which conflict with them. These rights derive from God Himself, NOT from any damn court, damn TIN-HORN, GREENHORN Marxist President, or the Bolshevik stool-pigeons who advise him.


26 posted on 05/28/2012 8:45:07 PM PDT by ZULU (Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomini Tuo Da Gloriam.)
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To: spintreebob

Well said, and concise. (My reply would’ve taken many paragraphs to make those vital points.)


27 posted on 05/29/2012 5:19:55 AM PDT by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: Talisker

I read as an apology for the founding principles reflected in our Declaration of Independence— and likewise a reflection of
Locke who along with Montesquieu and Blackstone were among the most cited European writers —the “Sacred Writings”The
Christian Bible remains the most cited authority of the Founding era. But Locke ,Blackstone, Jefferson, and James Wilson all seemed on the same page that human laws are invalid if they contradict the laws dictated by God ,Himself. I believe Alan Keyes did not intend to suggest the Islamic system could compare to Christianity. But cited such examples- along with reference to the blasphemy of Gay Rights—as example of human laws that are violation of the rule of law as understood int he founding era.


28 posted on 05/29/2012 5:42:22 AM PDT by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: Sherman Logan

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. If a person commits murder, he still possesses his God given rights. But the government has the power granted by the constitution to abridge the rights of the murderer and take away his liberty and pursuit of happiness, and maybe even his life.


29 posted on 05/30/2012 7:16:59 PM PDT by spintreebob
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To: JRandomFreeper

well said.


30 posted on 05/30/2012 7:17:45 PM PDT by spintreebob
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To: JRandomFreeper

States, and all governments, have power. ... the power that we allow them to have.


31 posted on 05/30/2012 7:19:46 PM PDT by spintreebob
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To: JRandomFreeper

I lost any shred of respect I had for Keyes when his vanity foisted Senator Barack Obama on the formerly great State of Illinois.


32 posted on 05/30/2012 7:27:46 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: Lurker
I lost any shred of respect I had for Keyes when his vanity foisted Senator Barack Obama on the formerly great State of Illinois.

Wrong focus. It was Jack Ryan who dropped out of the race and allowed Obama to become the junior senator from Illinois--though he was badly trailing Obama in the polls. And if Keyes was in there at all, it's because the IL GOP put him there. So first blame Obama for the dirty trick of getting Ryan's sealed divorce proceedings released by some partisan judge over the objections of both Ryan and his former wife, then blame Ryan for knuckling under Obama, then blame the IL GOP for thinking they had to come up with some black guy to replace Ryan to run against a somewhat black guy, then blame white voters for not bothering to turn out after Ryan was replaced with Keyes, then blame black voters for being so biased that they would never vote for a black Republican candidate, and then blame Keyes for not winning.

Formerly great state of Illinois? Maybe briefly back in Lincoln's day. The state has been a cesspool of political corruption since the latter 19th century without regard to political party. The Chicago political machine is the only remaining machine still operating since the 19th century in a big city.
33 posted on 05/30/2012 8:01:24 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

All of that is true. But Keyes, with his unconscionable vanity and ego, said yes.

And that makes President Barack Obama his fault.


34 posted on 05/30/2012 8:14:52 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: Lurker
All of that is true. But Keyes, with his unconscionable vanity and ego, said yes.

And that makes President Barack Obama his fault.


I'm trying to think of an analogy here to what you're saying. It would probably be something like this: The drag-racing parents of a young teen ask him if his young Chinese friend Wang wanted to race their dragster in the big race the next day against Deng the Draggin' Slayer since their driver had been sidelined by an injury (suspected of having been inflicted by Deng and his crew) even though the most driving experience either kid had had was in Grand Theft Auto, and Wang, the young teen who thought he could handle anything, said, "Heck, yes! I'll give it a shot," suited up, went out, totaled the dragster, and lost the race.

Friends of the family questioned about the incident later said that the kid was really the one to blame because if he hadn't taken his friend's parents up on the offer and had not had such an overly high estimate of his driving ability he never would have wrecked the car. When it was pointed out that even if the kid had said, "No way, don't put that kind of pressure on me. I'm not a good enough driver for this kind of race and just because I'm Chinese like the other driver doesn't mean I've got a realistic chance," the other driver probably would have won because there wasn't anyone with the needed background and skill to fill in at the last moment, the same friends of the family responded by saying that, nevertheless, the other driver won because the kid, with his unconscionable vanity and ego, said yes and that makes the other guy winning the race the kid's fault.

Though this doesn't quite work because the winner of a drag race doesn't get across the finish line first because he gets more votes than the other guy from the spectators in the grand stand.
35 posted on 05/31/2012 11:22:25 AM PDT by aruanan
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