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IPR Interview: Virgil Goode Makes His Case to Ron Paul Supporters (And Principled Conservatives)
IPR ^ | 30 May 12 | Peter Gemma

Posted on 05/30/2012 9:24:08 PM PDT by xzins

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To: Springfield Reformer

I don’t think our disagreement is on what is moral or that all morality, truth and goodness is from God. We strive to discern the will of God as He gives us the grace to do so.

We disagree on what actions that we take are moral or not, less moral or more moral.

I believe, and think you would agree, that acting in good conscience and with principles requires us to evaluate the results of our actions. In my discernment the action you propose result in greater harm, have less value in moral terms, than the action I have chosen. IOW, they are less conforming to the will of God and the absolute values we share.

This is where we disagree.

Thanks for your reply.


51 posted on 05/31/2012 9:54:32 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: NE Cons; SoConPubbie; cripplecreek

Just one month ago Romney said he supports gay couples adopting children.

1. If you were to guess, would you be more likely to find that position in: A. “a liberal handbook” or B. “a conservative handbook”?

Don’t sweat this one, you have a 50/50 chance of getting it right?

2. Again, allowing guessing, would you more likely conclude that “gay couples adopting children” is: A. In stark contrast to thousands of years of moral philosophy, or B. Always and everywhere an accepted practice?

I have also made this easy, giving a 50/50 chance of getting it right.

How did you score on the test?


52 posted on 05/31/2012 9:57:07 AM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: Yashcheritsiy

:>)


53 posted on 05/31/2012 10:01:20 AM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: libdestroyer; PapaBear3625; xzins
The net result was that Bill Clinton won in an electoral landslide, while getting just 43% of the popular vote.

Let's look at the WHOLE story, however.

In June and early July 1992, Perot was consistently polling in the low 40s, meaning he was leading.

Then he started to go crazy, making all kinds of accusations against the other candidates (esp. Bush I). Additionally, he made a number of tactical errors in his campaign that were the result of his trying to micromanage everything and not letting his campaign managers do their job. As well, he made an extremely poor choice in his VP running mate (nothing against Admiral Stockwell, but he did come off as being out to lunch, esp. in debates) that turned a lot of folks off. Then, he ended up dropping out of the race while accusing Bush and the Republicans of plotting to disrupt his daughter's wedding. In short, Perot more or less blew a fuse and went crazy around mid-to-late July.

He then got back into the race in early October, after having pulled all of these stunts and basically revealing himself to be a whackjob to the country.

So THIS is the context for Perot's 19% finish.

Really, the take home message is not that Perot only got 19%, but that he actually still managed to get 19%, despite it all.

Chances are, if he'd stayed in the race and not started seeing little green men on his front lawn, history books would probably be talking about President Perot (I-TX, 1993-2001).

54 posted on 05/31/2012 10:03:05 AM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (not voting for the lesser of two evils)
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To: NE Cons
He was the worst candidate outside of Ron Paul.

Sad thing is that I'm not sure that's true - and I'm no fan of the Crazy Uncle.

Having said that, he's the ONLY person in the world standing between us and a 2nd term. So... I'm ABO till the end. We can't afford otherwise.

I'm not going to pick one turd because it stinks a little less than the other. You accuse another of hyperbole, yet you engage in the same thing in support of Romney. The only reasons any Romney supporters ever come up with are that "he's not as bad as Obama" or "Obama is going to destroy our nation." Can you name a President who had major accomplishments in his second term? Lame-duckness hits hard in the second term. While I don't want another Obama term, I'm not living in terror of it, either.

Whether it is Obama's second term or Romney's first, this nation has four bleak years in front of it.

55 posted on 05/31/2012 10:12:12 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: xzins

I think Mitt Romney needs to drop out and stop stealing votes from Goode.


56 posted on 05/31/2012 10:16:59 AM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (not voting for the lesser of two evils)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

He absolutely wants Obama to win. He’s already posted a thread saying, “Vote for Obama”. This Virgil Goode crap is a total dodge. None of these “principled conservatives” are real.


57 posted on 05/31/2012 11:53:47 AM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: xzins
So you want Ubama to win.

At least you admit it.

58 posted on 05/31/2012 12:08:56 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: D-fendr
Or we could adopt the view of class warfare..

Hey, anybody who's good enough for Soros...like mitt...

59 posted on 05/31/2012 12:49:59 PM PDT by Sirius Lee (When we cease to be good we'll cease to be great. Be for Goode.)
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To: Deb; xzins
None of these “principled conservatives” are real.

One of the costs of standing on principles is being ridiculed by small-minded people. I'm sure that xzins isn't concerned about your criticism, either. Neither of us answer to you.

Deb, the good news with your position is that if your "conservatism" is flexible enough to vote for Romney, you'll never face the dilemma of having to say NO to candidate because he or she is too liberal.

60 posted on 05/31/2012 12:53:02 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: D-fendr

First let me say I appreciate the friendly tone of this conversation. It’s getting too rare on FR. Thanks.

As to your argument, I am glad we have common ground in understanding God as the starting point for moral reasoning.

But I think we disagree on more than just what actions are moral or not. I think we still disagree on what morality actually is.

Harm avoidance is a weak basis for moral choices. In practice, it is not useful for any moral problem that doesn’t produce an immediate and obvious harm. God tells us to avoid idolatry. But who is really hurt if we worship rocks or fishes or fancy cars? Not God. And if we don’t inflict “injury” on anyone else (whatever that really means), why should it be prohibited?

Mere harm avoidance cannot answer that question, and that is exactly why it is the preferred form of moral argument the left uses to advance almost every element of its ungodly vision for utopia. After all, who can argue with heaven on earth? If you buy their premise, all moral arguments devolve to mind-numbing attempts to quantify harm. We become driven, not by the precepts of Scripture and the God who loves us, but by the (manufactured) crisis of the day. We cease to be truly free.

A better argument, IMHO, is that God knows all possible harms, and with that knowledge has told us what we must do. This is the heart of faith, that we believe God’s long-range radar, even when our short-range radar is predicting something different.

God is not asking us to control the future. That’s his job. He asks us to be faithful in the few things he has given us, and if we do OK with those, he will give us more someday.

And he has clearly told us two important things that bear on how we use our vote this election. First, flee idolatry. We are under direct command authority, not so much as to even bid Godspeed to those who bring doctrines of Christ contrary to the apostolic teaching (let alone voluntarily grant them power over our lives). If we help them in their evil, we become a party to their evil. See 2 John 1:10.

As for your calculus of harm, Jesus puts it in perspective: What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his own soul? In other words, if you would measure actions by measuring harm, start with your own soul, because according to Jesus, it is worth more than the whole world.

Peace,

SR


61 posted on 05/31/2012 1:01:37 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: CommerceComet
I don't need a lecture from someone pretending his "principles" dictate Obama be allowed to destroy this country. Oh, and that "God" won't let you vote for Romney.

You Obama trolls have been reduced to talking to each other and mau-mauing Mormon FReepers.

62 posted on 05/31/2012 1:02:15 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Graybeard58

Of course you are - you are doing the same thing as voting for Obama.


63 posted on 05/31/2012 1:05:55 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Thanks for your courteous reply.

I think we could say the basis of morality is love. Love of God and through Him love of our neighbor.

While avoiding harm is not the basis, we do strive to minimize harm out of love.

As for God’s omniscience and omnipotence, this could be used to avoid responsibility for our actions or justify no action at all. God created man, our actions have meaning and consequences, we should strive to increase in moral discernment and love.

I don’t think idolatry comes into play in my vote. (Perhaps if I were a materialist or utopian or Obama worshipper...)

I do believe opposing evil and godlessness does come into play. As does opposing secular humanism, reductionism, denigration of soul and spirit, etc. And with it all the resulting harm.

Primarily for these reasons, I believe the moral thing to do in this election is act to remove this evil regime from power. I believe that voting for a third-party candidate is counter productive to this primary objective. And is, therefore, IMHO, immoral.

thanks again...


64 posted on 05/31/2012 1:52:47 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Deb
He’s already posted a thread saying, “Vote for Obama”.

Are you talking about me...xzins? Are you saying I posted a thread the subject of which was an encouragement for people to vote for Obama?

65 posted on 05/31/2012 2:56:02 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
So you want Ubama to win. At least you admit it.

So, I post a quote from you in which you say Obama and Romney are the same, and that means I want Obama to win?

That kind of spin is worth of....of....Maxine Waters.

Maxine...is that you? Are you here? Are you channeling EPUnum?

ROTFLOL!

66 posted on 05/31/2012 3:02:24 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
So you want Ubama to win. At least you admit it.

So, I post a quote from you in which you say Obama and Romney are the same, and that means I want Obama to win?

That kind of spin is worthY of....of....Maxine Waters.

Maxine...is that you? Are you here? Are you channeling EPUnum?

ROTFLOL!

67 posted on 05/31/2012 3:02:53 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
So you want Ubama to win. At least you admit it.

So, I post a quote from you in which you say Obama and Romney are the same, and that means I want Obama to win?

That kind of spin is worthY of....of....Maxine Waters.

Maxine...is that you? Are you here? Are you channeling EPUnum?

ROTFLOL!

68 posted on 05/31/2012 3:02:53 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: xzins

Why did you only send your message three times? Shouldn’t a spasto like you send it a hundred times?


69 posted on 05/31/2012 3:19:24 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; P-Marlowe

Why?

So people would go back and look at your quote that says Mitt and Obama are the same.

EPluU: “The alternative is Myth, who is the same thing as Ubama. “

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2800991/posts?page=10#10

LOL!


70 posted on 05/31/2012 3:25:11 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: D-fendr

I agree that love is certainly a better place to begin than avoidance of harm. However, I note than in your response you end up back at avoidance of harm as your primary expression of love, and that continues to be a weak approach, because it leads directly to moral relativism.

Consider: God has commanded us avoid worshipping idols. You agree? So let’s say I was told that if I worshipped an idol, King Nebuchadnezzar would not throw me in the fiery furnace. Would you have me worship that idol to save my life? If not, why not? Wouldn’t the loving thing to do be to save my own skin so I can go back to taking care of my family? They do need me. Or I could also go back to teaching people how wonderful God is. After I worshipped an idol?

What did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego do? They rejected the pressure to disobey God, even if it meant the end of their own earthly lives. Apparently, the consequence they feared the most was displeasing God. Is what they did immoral? Based on your analysis so far, it is.

Now change the problem. Let’s say Nebuchadnezzar tells you your whole family will be thrown into the fiery furnace if you do not bow down low and worship his idol. Harder problem, isn’t it. The love you have for your family, if you are like me, is greater than the love you have for your own life. And if the harm would be so great, wouldn’t love predict you would bow down to that idol? To save your own family?

Or would love do something different. If the objective of a godly man is to see to the salvation of his family, is that primarily a physical salvation, or a spiritual salvation? Is it really “moral” to sin so that good may come of it? The Apostle Paul teaches us explicitly not to use that logic. We are not allowed to sin so that good may come of it. By so doing we commit an act of gross hubris, making ourselves more wise than God Himself. When confronted with such a choice, we must always obey God and trust him for the outcome.

Then the problem becomes, not what harm can I avoid if I do this sinful thing, but will I choose to trust in God, or will I cave to the fear of man?

One of my favorite stories in this regard comes from Corrie Ten Boom. She and her family in German-occupied Holland were giving refuge to escaping Jews. They were hiding them in the floor. One day the Germans came to their home and demanded to know of them whether they were hiding Jews.

Using your system of moral analysis, it would seem the right thing to do was to lie to the Germans. But Bessie, Corrie’s sister, did the most unusual thing. Taking on a bizarre, comical manner, she told the Germans the truth. They didn’t believe her. They probably thought she was crazy. But Bessie held to her conscience, which did not permit her to lie, even if grave consequences would come from telling the truth. She trusted God, and God vindicated her.

But your system says what she did was immoral. The “loving” thing to do would have been to lie, right? Lives saved, happy endings for all (well, except the Germans, of course). Yet she did what was right, out of a sense of unalterable duty to God. It is very hard, no, it is impossible, for me to judge that as immoral.

In fact, that story, among so many other stories of the people of God remaining true to God even when it made them the object of ridicule and violence, has served as a reminder to me that we have not yet paid the ultimate price for our sense of duty to God. We have brothers and sisters in Christ in China, Darfur, and elsewhere, who daily confront the prospect of prison or execution, for failing to sign on to the state-sponsored orthodoxy. What we are going through is child’s play by comparison.

I have to go somewhere. I have enjoyed the conversation. I hope it has been beneficial to you as well. Peace.


71 posted on 05/31/2012 4:09:53 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: xzins
I adjusted to reality, once Myth was the candidate.

I realized that Myth would be better then Ubama, because Ubama hates America. You can't say that about Myth.

You, however, want Ubama to win.

Good luck to ya.

72 posted on 05/31/2012 4:21:32 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Does “adjust to reality” = OK with gay adoption by gay couples?


73 posted on 05/31/2012 4:31:58 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: xzins
"Adjust to reality" is that Ubama is far worse, in every way, than Ubama.

You think you're clever by pretending to be for Goode, when you really are nothing more than a DUer practicing the Delphi technique to get Ubama reelected.

It's pretty transparent.

74 posted on 05/31/2012 4:41:47 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: Deb
I don't need a lecture from someone...

Good. Return the favor and we'll both be happy.

75 posted on 05/31/2012 4:53:59 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; P-Marlowe; cripplecreek; cva66snipe; Elvina; greyfoxx39; Hilda; ImpBill; kabar; ..
You think you're clever by pretending to be for Goode, when you really are nothing more than a DUer practicing the Delphi technique to get Ubama reelected. It's pretty transparent.

Your words, EPU, are that Obama = Romney.

Goode is a life-long, pro-life advocate.

Romney is an on-again-off-again, on-again-off-again advocate of the political winds of abortion advocate.

Obama is a life-long, pro-abortion candidate.

Are you pro-life or pro-abortion?

76 posted on 05/31/2012 6:09:16 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

mind reader alert


77 posted on 05/31/2012 6:14:40 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: xzins; Deb

Deb seems so confused sometimes, be kind.


78 posted on 05/31/2012 6:16:34 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw; Deb
Deb...confused

I'm so sorry. I thought she was truth challenged.

79 posted on 05/31/2012 6:21:51 PM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; xzins
You think you're clever by pretending to be for Goode, when you really are nothing more than a DUer practicing the Delphi technique to get Ubama reelected.

You are the one with the problem. Just a few months ago you were claiming that there was no difference between Obama and Romney and you were right. Now you claim that those who take the same position that you were taking just a few months ago are Trolls from DU.

You are a flaming hypocrite. No wonder you are carrying water for Romney. You are just like him.

80 posted on 05/31/2012 7:11:48 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe

Go back to DU.


81 posted on 05/31/2012 7:15:37 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: Springfield Reformer

I’ve enjoyed the conversation as well. And I think we end on notes that we both agree on.

I would on add short points that I believe are corrective in terms of my position here.

We’ve gone off from the political into the spiritual and I was staying in context of political. We both advocate limited government and here I think a position of “do the least harm” makes sense.

Government should not be in the proactive mode in terms of the citizens spiritual health.

So, I agree with you in terms of love and morals and spiritual; but I’m not applying these to my political choice here. I believe it a moral action, in itself, to remove harmful regimes.

May God bless you and yours..


82 posted on 05/31/2012 9:29:08 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: P-Marlowe; E. Pluribus Unum
You are a flaming hypocrite. No wonder you are carrying water for Romney. You are just like him.

Right on target, PM. At some level, it is good to know that is the kind of person Romney attracts.

It also underscores the validity of the title of this thread regarding principled conservatives.

83 posted on 06/01/2012 4:13:45 AM PDT by xzins (Vote for Goode Not Evil! (The lesser of 2 evils is still evil!))
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To: D-fendr

“I don’t think our disagreement is on what is moral or that all morality, truth and goodness is from God. We strive to discern the will of God as He gives us the grace to do so.

We disagree on what actions that we take are moral or not, less moral or more moral.

I believe, and think you would agree, that acting in good conscience and with principles requires us to evaluate the results of our actions. In my discernment the action you propose result in greater harm, have less value in moral terms, than the action I have chosen. IOW, they are less conforming to the will of God and the absolute values we share.

This is where we disagree.”

Do you believe God chooses our leaders? I certainly do. I believe we Christians have a wonderful opportunity to vote based on our conscience while believing God will work-out his divine plan.

Still disagree?


84 posted on 06/01/2012 8:43:47 AM PDT by libdestroyer
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To: libdestroyer

one more thing...
I take issue with this statement “they are less conforming to the will of God”

My FRiend, EVERYTHING conforms to the will of God!


85 posted on 06/01/2012 8:47:27 AM PDT by libdestroyer
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To: CommerceComet

It, also, deeply depends upon how conservative the next Congress is, both in the House and Senate. A very conservative Congress v.s. a leftist POTUS, from either major political party, equals a POTUS who, truly, would be very limited in what they could, actually, do that’s pro-leftist, on all issues! VOTE FOR THE MOST CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES IN EACH AND EVERY POLITICAL OFFICE, all the way down to the most local levels, and THEN REPEAT, during each and every future U.S. election (and worldwide, for all voters outside of the U.S., too=even better for the entire world).


86 posted on 06/01/2012 9:03:53 AM PDT by johnthebaptistmoore (The world continues to be stuck in a "all leftist, all of the time" funk. BUNK THE FUNK!)
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To: johnthebaptistmoore
VOTE FOR THE MOST CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES IN EACH AND EVERY POLITICAL OFFICE, all the way down to the most local levels, and THEN REPEAT, during each and every future U.S. election (and worldwide, for all voters outside of the U.S., too=even better for the entire world).

That is exactly what I intend to do this election. A conservative Congress is our only hope to keep the Obama/Romney agenda from becoming reality.

87 posted on 06/01/2012 11:36:06 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: johnthebaptistmoore
VOTE FOR THE MOST CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES IN EACH AND EVERY POLITICAL OFFICE...

An additional note to my previous response - I won't vote for Mitt Romney, even if he is marginally more conservative than Obama, he is totally unacceptable. I'm voting for Virgil Goode, even if he has no viable chance of winning the election.

88 posted on 06/01/2012 3:36:29 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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