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The Arab Spring was no prelude to democracy
Daily Telegraph (UK) ^ | 8:04PM BST 31 May 2012 | Con Coughlin

Posted on 06/01/2012 12:30:32 AM PDT by Olog-hai

The rush to back change for change’s sake in the troubled region of North Africa has proven somewhat naïve. …

The accommodation of the Islamist-orientated An-Nahda (The Renaïssance) movement in Tunisia’s new coalition government has been achieved without jeopardizing the foundations of the country’s secular constitution. Even so, only last weekend hundreds of Islamist rioters went on the rampage, attacking bars and shops that sell alcohol, a turn of events that is unlikely to boost Tunisia’s attractiveness to Western holidaymakers.

Elsewhere, the omens are even less encouraging. Eight months after Colonel Gaddafi’s brutal murder, Libya remains in thrall to the warring bands of militias—some of them al-Qaeda acolytes—who are determined to hold on to their independent fiefdoms rather than embrace the cause of democratic reform Libyans were promised if they supported the dictator’s overthrow.

In neighboring Egypt, meanwhile, where the defiant protests in Tahrir Square last year fostered the belief that wholesale democratic reform was about to sweep the Arab world, the choice for 50 million voters is between the military and the Islamists, two groups not renowned for their commitment to democracy.

This depressing pattern is repeated throughout the region. The political instability in Yemen following President Ali Abdullah Saleh’s retirement has resulted in a dramatic upgrade in al-Qaeda’s terrorist capabilities, while attempts by Bahrain’s ruling family to reconcile their differences with Shia Muslim dissenters have been undermined by the pernicious involvement of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards, whose long‑term ambition is to achieve the overthrow of the country’s Sunni Muslim monarchy.

So much, then, for the “Arab Spring”, which, as I have consistently argued, is an intellectually flawed concept dreamt up by those who conveniently overlook the forces at play in Arab countries. …

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: arabspring; democracy

1 posted on 06/01/2012 12:30:39 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai; humblegunner; Larry Lucido; Markos33; Absolutely Nobama; TheOldLady; Salamander

I am always amazed when people bemoan violence in post revolutionary societies, blaming it on a lack of democracy.

Violent mob rule ~IS~ democracy, in its purest form.

That is why the great political scientists, beginning with Plato, regarded democracy as anathema to a truly just and civil society.

Names, like words, mean things. Names both describe and empower. It is no accident that the Democrat Party in America seeks to reduce the Republic to rubble using mobs empowered by ignorance as their wrecking ball.

What you see in the “Arab Spring” is precisely what they have planned for US, once they have stripped the populace of their wealth, national pride and faith in God.

Democracy is the empowerment of those least equipped, either by learning or temperament to wield it.


2 posted on 06/01/2012 1:16:52 AM PDT by shibumi (Cover it with gas and set it on fire.)
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To: shibumi
Names, like words, mean things. Names both describe and empower. It is no accident that the Democrat Party in America seeks to reduce the Republic to rubble using mobs empowered by ignorance as their wrecking ball. What you see in the “Arab Spring” is precisely what they have planned for US, once they have stripped the populace of their wealth, national pride and faith in God.

Sometimes you come across a nugget of truth so profound, you have to sit and contmeplate it--like this one.

Well stated.

Democrats are the enemies of freedom, and always have been.

3 posted on 06/01/2012 1:31:30 AM PDT by exit82 (Democrats are the enemies of freedom. Be Andrew Breitbart.)
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To: exit82

Why - Thank You!


4 posted on 06/01/2012 1:35:08 AM PDT by shibumi (Cover it with gas and set it on fire.)
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To: Olog-hai

If the arabic countries naively believe democracy means freedom, they are sorely naive in the first place. However they are not going to get freedom until they renounce the dictates of their islamiofascist imams. And that’s just the way it is.


5 posted on 06/01/2012 4:13:14 AM PDT by RowdyFFC
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To: shibumi

You are dead on.

This is Obama’s plan.


6 posted on 06/01/2012 4:20:23 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Olog-hai
So much, then, for the “Arab Spring”, which, as I have consistently argued, is an intellectually flawed concept dreamt up by those who conveniently, INTENTIONALLY overlook the forces at play in Arab countries, not the least, the Islamic-Jihadist-Appeaser/Defender/Supporter, Barack Hussein Obama...

There, fixed it!

7 posted on 06/01/2012 5:04:43 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet (l)
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To: Olog-hai

“The Arab Spring was no prelude to democracy”

It might have been if democracies had given full support from the very beginning instead of sitting by and watching.
The muslim brotherhood watched the pro-democracy movement grow & and then joined in and took over.
That’s when the movement was lost - and the world just watched, as it’s watching in Syria.


8 posted on 06/01/2012 5:20:11 AM PDT by nuconvert ( Khomeini promised change too // Hail, Chairman O)
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To: Olog-hai
In neighboring Egypt, meanwhile, where the defiant protests in Tahrir Square last year fostered the belief that wholesale democratic reform was about to sweep the Arab world

What naive dipshits actually believed that? Good grief these people are just stupid...

9 posted on 06/01/2012 5:21:47 AM PDT by Wyatt's Torch (I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.)
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To: Olog-hai

“Libya remains in thrall to the warring bands of militias—some of them al-Qaeda acolytes— “

This, of course, is bullsh*t from the 30 IQ morons in the British press. This is like claiming that America is in chaos and about to be overrun because the Earth Liberation Front burned an SUV in a car lot.

Osama al-Juwali, Libya’s interim defense minister and the most respected militia leader in Libya, has sent out the Libyan army, made of various militia groups and the regular army, to kick Al Queda’s ass when they squeak too loud.

The so-called Muslim militias in Tripoli are composed of roving gangs of 16-year-old punks looking for free stuff, just like our big city Amish here in America. The residents of Tripoli hate their guts, and al-Juwali has deployed troops into Tripoli to spank their butts several times.


10 posted on 06/01/2012 6:18:20 AM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave
What are you talking about? Osama al-Juwaili is an Islamist.
11 posted on 06/01/2012 10:58:41 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Congratulations, you figured out that most people in the Middle East follow the Islamic religion. Impressive.


12 posted on 06/01/2012 3:04:42 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave

Brilliant, ain’t it? Meanwhile, your prior post seemed to sharply define the distinction between “Islamist” and “Muslim”. If you like, I can go one step further and categorically state that al-Juwaili is the equivalent of al-Qaeda.


13 posted on 06/01/2012 3:11:09 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

“I can go one step further and categorically state that al-Juwaili is the equivalent of al-Qaeda.”

Take your best shot. How you equate al-Juwaili as Al-Queda should be amusing.

Show everyone here how al-Juwaili helped Al-Queda in Libya and especially in Tripoli during the overthrow of Kaddhafi’s regime. Tell us how al-Juwaili let Qaddhafi’s Al-Queda ministers, mercenaries, toadies and bureaucrats slip through and escape to Nigeria.

I can’t wait to see you reference crap from your left sources in Reuters and al-Jazeera.


14 posted on 06/01/2012 4:35:00 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave
WADR, it is your rants that sound like they were sourced out of al-Reuters and al-Jazeera. That’s why I’m reacting the way I am towards them.

Now if Joe Kaufman got this wrong, I would certainly like to know, i.e. beyond anecdotal evidence. Thanks in advance . . .
One of the groups represented in the anti-Gaddafi coalition is the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG. Leaders of the LIFG fought alongside Osama bin Laden against the Soviets during the War in Afghanistan in the1980s. The LIFG’s association with al-Qaeda is the reason why the group is found on the U.S. State Department’s list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations.

How ironic, then, that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton would travel to Libya, as she did this past October, to announce a U.S. foreign aid package to the country. When she arrived, she was greeted by “revolutionaries” in Tripoli, the capital of Libya, where the head of the LIFG and ex-Guantanamo Bay inmate, Abdul Hakim Belhadj, is presently the commander of the Tripoli Military Council, and another Islamist, Osama al-Juwaili, is the head of the Libyan Defense Ministry. Essentially, the entire military apparatus for Libya is, today, controlled by Islamists.
For the record, al-Reuters and al-Jazeera are remarkably silent on Osama al Juwaili and his boss Abdurrahim El-Keib, as is Wikipedia.
15 posted on 06/01/2012 5:14:28 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

I don’t have time for this crap.

I asked you to prove your statement: “I can go one step further and categorically state that al-Juwaili is the equivalent of al-Qaeda.”

You trot out Joe Blow as a source. That’s not proof; it’s libel.

I asked you to prove your contention that al-Juwaili is al-Queda.

You’re silent and change the subject.

Do some reading:

http://www.elfagr.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82867

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_Libyan_civil_war


16 posted on 06/01/2012 6:39:20 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave
. . . meanwhile, you “trot out” no proof at all that contradicts the statements of myself and Kaufman (a spat between militia leaders proves nothing at all to that effect), and Wikiliberalism (majority sources al-Reuters and al-BBC)?? No offense meant, but I will have to take Kaufman’s word (a Tea Party fav) over what amounts to nothing.

If you “don’t have time” for the stuff you stir up, then don’t stir it up. The bigshots in the National Transitional Council are Islamists (I said equivalent to al-Qaeda, not necessarily al-Qaeda proper; rather like how Hamas is the analog to al-Qaeda in Palestine Israel).
17 posted on 06/01/2012 6:56:12 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Olog-hai

No. The “Arab Spring” is beginning of everything Al Qaeda hoped achieve when it attacked the US: the rebirth of a Caliphate. It didn’t go the way they planned but it is happening nevertheless.

Of course there are issues of Islamic sectarianism; The Sunnis hate the Shiites and the Wahabbis hate everybody, etc., but, as long they external enemies to attack and loot, this can be ignored.


19 posted on 06/01/2012 7:04:34 PM PDT by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Little Ray
Indeed. The kafir are the primary target, especially the "Great Satan" (the USA).
20 posted on 06/01/2012 7:10:57 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: exit82
The Arab Spring was no prelude to democracy

Hey, Barry Obama. We're going to have a new American Spring this fall.
21 posted on 06/01/2012 7:17:13 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Olog-hai

Not a prelude to democracy? I am shocked, I tell you....shocked.

And is that gambling over there at Rick’s?


22 posted on 06/01/2012 7:19:18 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (I just don't like anything about the President. And I don't think he's a nice guy.)
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To: Olog-hai

” meanwhile, you “trot out” no proof at all that contradicts the statements of myself and Kaufman”

What makes you think that you and Kaufman are credible?

In your little world, everyone in the Middle East is Al Quada or a sympathizer.

And the fact that al-Juwali has reorganized the army to include militias, and has used that army to take on al-Quada militias contradicts your opinion that al-Juwali is al-Quada.

There’s nothing in al-Juwali’s background or actions that connects him to al-Quada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_al-Juwali

You apparently don’t have the acumen to explore other possibilites that are outside your world view. Al-Juwali’s military leadership is keeping a lid on the pot and preventing it from boiling over.


23 posted on 06/02/2012 4:51:36 AM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave

What makes you think that you and Kaufman are credible?
You’re talking like a liberal plant now, trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say (figuratively). Your attempts at defanging the term “Islamist” say as much.

If you have any evidence (beyond Wikiliberalism) that al-Juwaili is not an Islamist who wants to put Libya under strict Sharia law (which makes him, as I said before, the equivalent of al-Qaeda), let’s see it. Otherwise, I’m sticking with the political candidate’s statement on this one. And as far as Libya goes, who wants the lid on the pot so that they can get sufficiently organized to attack the West again—or even worse, to ally with Iran as Egypt is doing?
24 posted on 06/02/2012 10:30:11 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

This is real easy to solve.

You think al-Juwaili is an al-Queda plant or whatever.

I think you’re wrong.

This disagreement between you and me is easy to solve.

Elections are coming up in Libya, and I think I know the interim government and the Libyan people better than you.

I’ll predict that the new government will not be made up of the Muslim Brotherhood, as in Egypt, nor will it be a government that is loving al-Queda. I’ll further predict that the new Libyan government will pass a set of free trade initiatives that will copy the UAE model, creating an international merchant and trade center in Tripoli that will mirror Dubai.

You make your analysis and a prediction of what the Libyan government will look like after the people vote. I’ve been very detailed in my prediction. Try to do the same in yours.

Then we’ll see who’s right.

Deal?


25 posted on 06/02/2012 3:47:33 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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