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What is Worse - Normalization of Births of Illegitimate Children, Or High Abortion Rates?

Posted on 06/03/2012 9:09:45 AM PDT by pinochet

In 2009, the New York Times had a heartbreaking story on the hatred and prejudice that single mothers receive in South Korea, for bringing up children without husbands. They are fired from their jobs, ostracized by their families, evicted from their apartments, and their children are shamed in school and made to wish they had never been born. This has resulted in South Korea having a 2 percent illegitimacy rate, compared to a 40 percent illegitimacy rate for Americans.

The Times notes that a shocking 96 percent of single mothers who get pregnant, have abortions. That is the huge price that South Korea pays for its 2 percent illegitimacy rates. About 70 percent of the babies who are born, are given to foreigners for adoption, because the mothers want to avoid the shame of single parenthood. Here is the NYT story: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/08/world/asia/08mothers.html?_r=1

If one was to compare South Korean culture (which aborts 96 percent of babies born to single parents) to black American culture that encourages a 70 percent ilegitimacy rate, which of the two cultures is a more moral culture?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: abortion; illegitimacy; lifeoverdeath; prolife; singlemothers; southkorea; thewheelerwhich; vanity
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Interestingly, the South Korean government, which actively encourages prejudice against single mothers, is often complaining that the birth rate in South Korea is too low, and is calling on its people to have more children. South Korea has a lower birthrate than White Americans and most European countries.

I believe that morality and family values are important. But we must not be too harsh in judging people who fall short of our moral ideals.

1 posted on 06/03/2012 9:10:02 AM PDT by pinochet
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To: pinochet

Bring back shotgun weddings.


2 posted on 06/03/2012 9:12:15 AM PDT by utahagen
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To: pinochet

Abortion is worse.


3 posted on 06/03/2012 9:15:21 AM PDT by Clintonfatigued (Obama and Company lied, the American economy died)
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To: pinochet

Is the question is which poison would you prefer? That’s not a question that really merits an answer.

Either of the options is doing it wrong.


4 posted on 06/03/2012 9:19:24 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: pinochet

There’s a third option. Shame is a great inhibitor, as well as cutting off every single fed dime of welfare (the whole spectrum of welfare).

Women should be ashamed to have a child out of wedlock, and men should be ashamed for being sperm donors for out of wedlock children.

Why shouldn’t people be judged if they slut around? It’s wrong, and it ruins lives. Children without fathers have a great chance of becoming dirtbags. Yes sorry that’s a mean word. But they do. Children NEED a father MARRIED to their mother or they suffer terribly.


5 posted on 06/03/2012 9:21:23 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: pinochet

Do the Koreans force other Koreans to pay for their abortion?


6 posted on 06/03/2012 9:21:23 AM PDT by the_daug
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To: Clintonfatigued
I have to agree. Killing unborn humans is always wrong.

da Vinci was a bastard. While it would be better for children to be legitimate, I can stand more bastards like da Vinci, or Thomas Paine.

/johnny

7 posted on 06/03/2012 9:24:46 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: pinochet
Which is worse: Your daughter giving birth out of wedlock, or your daughter taking her newborn and dismembering it?

(Did I -- actually you -- really need to ask the Q)

Abortion is infanticide.

8 posted on 06/03/2012 9:24:46 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: pinochet

false-dichotomy alert.


9 posted on 06/03/2012 9:25:18 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (they have no god but caesar)
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To: pinochet

What’s worse? Dying of AIDS or cancer?


10 posted on 06/03/2012 9:26:12 AM PDT by MNDude
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To: don-o

>>>>Is the question is which poison would you prefer?

If you read my first post, I made it clear that I support morality and family values. In my ideal world, 100 percent of children would be born to two parent fammilies, and there would be no abortion. But we are not living in an ideal world. All I am doing is comparing South Korean culture and black American culture, and asking freepers to express their opinions on both cultures.


11 posted on 06/03/2012 9:26:22 AM PDT by pinochet
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To: little jeremiah

There used to be shame about these matters. But there is no shame anymore, because we are supposed to be liberal and non-judgemental about things such as out of wedlock births.

Nobody wants to think about shotgun weddings anymore. Many of us can remember a time when family or friends “had to get married”, or remember hearing that a boy got a girl in trouble.

I hope I don’t get banned for saying this, but, part of the issue is that people have a sex drive, and even back when traditional sexual morality was respected, a number of people crossed certain lines. Back then, there was at least some recognition that one’s sex feelings could cause you problems if you weren’t married. But nowadays, we celebrate sex of all kinds, even homosexuality.

The difference between now and then has to do with personal responsibility. A man felt strong pressures to marry a girl he got in trouble. A girl felt strong pressures to formalize their relationship with marriage, and create a family out of their situation.

Nowadays, nobody feels any pressure or impulse to do anything. When there is no social stigma about behavior, you unfortunately see an increase in that bad behavior.


12 posted on 06/03/2012 9:31:34 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: pinochet

False dichotomies are false.


13 posted on 06/03/2012 9:32:31 AM PDT by Ellendra ("It's astounding how often people mistake their own stupidity for a lack of fairness." --Thunt)
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To: pinochet

Single “mothers” are sluts who could not resist spreading their legs. They have already proven themselves to be low and they deserve social scorn. Instead of redeeming themselves, aborting their child is the worst possible thing to do.

Their redemption comes from either getting married and stay in a monogamous relationship, or from giving their children up for adoption to a stable 2-parent home so that the children can be brought up properly.


14 posted on 06/03/2012 9:32:31 AM PDT by sagar
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To: little jeremiah
While it would be great for all children to be legitimate, here in the real world, that doesn't happen.

Murdering babies isn't a valid solution. Encouraging marriage is a solution.

This world is far from perfect.

/johnny

15 posted on 06/03/2012 9:35:15 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: pinochet
What is Worse - Normalization of Births of Illegitimate Children, Or High Abortion Rates?

High abortion rates. Once you kill them those kids are gone and they will never be back.

16 posted on 06/03/2012 9:35:37 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Migrating elephant herds react badly to flaming motor homes and dry ice doesn't repel killer bees)
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To: pinochet

1. Where there’s life, there’s hope.
2. Since when are those the only two options? How about not conceiving out of wedlock, or adoption, or marrying the father of the child?

I think men need to be held accountable by other men for this. I think a boy needs to know, from other men, growing up that a man who doesn’t raise his children is contemptible.

I think some women think they are better off not having to live with a man and put up with his input on family life. If they could just get him to send regular checks they would be happy, and they could be free to have a boyfriend, or not. That’s selfish and horrible for the kids to be raised by someone who is selfish and immature.

3. This is where people of faith, who seriously reflect on marriage and practice self-sacrificing generosity, really have an advantage over those who don’t. I don’t know how to rebuild that as a cultural norm, however.


17 posted on 06/03/2012 9:36:45 AM PDT by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: pinochet

Abortion is murder. Out of wedlock births in urban America, courtesy of the Great Society, are preferable to killing unborn babies but I reject the Hobson’s choice. Bring back stocks in the city square and have fathers won’t support their kids occupy them. Failing that neuter any man who won’t support his children. Or confine them to quarters if not working. Fantasy all, the destruction of the urban family and the expansion of government as Daddy will continue apace.


18 posted on 06/03/2012 9:37:09 AM PDT by jwalsh07 (.)
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To: pinochet

Obviously abortion is worse, far worse the a child being born out of wedlock.

And this never was, and never will be a perfect world. Look at President Clinton, just as an example that is known to people. His father was killed in a car accident before he was born. This has happened to who knows how many people throughout history, I’m sure it happens every day, esp. to women whose husbands are in the military or cops, firemen or even not, like Clinton’s father.

Women can die too, and leave their husbands as single fathers.

But, that is not to say that the idea of having a baby “on your own” like Obama’s fictional “Julia” is a good idea, obviously it is not.

And yes, ending welfare would put a stop to a lot of this.

But what is true is that this has all been encouraged, by the Left, who want us all to be like serfs, dependent on and working for the State.

And, no soda either.


19 posted on 06/03/2012 9:39:15 AM PDT by jocon307
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To: Colofornian

>>>>Which is worse: Your daughter giving birth out of wedlock, or your daughter taking her newborn and dismembering it?

All I was doing, was comparing black American culture with South Korean culture, and asking which culture is a more admirable culture.

I do not endorse either abortion or illegitimacy. But, in my opinion, the black American culture is more humane and moral than South Korean culture. While I admire Korean people, I think their culture is too judgemental. Do you agree?


20 posted on 06/03/2012 9:39:52 AM PDT by pinochet
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To: sagar
Single “mothers” are sluts who could not resist spreading their legs.

In the context of Korea, you are harshly judging those women who may have been set adrift by their parents in the first place, been subjected to date rape, or to false promises and seduction by irresponsible men. It may surprise you to know that, even before birth control was introduced in this country, fully one-third of brides were pregnant, back in the day when we had a majority Christian country.

Both the Korean culture and your harsh attitude casts all blame on the women. That's fundamentally unfair. They can't just make a man marry them, be a good father or a cooperative mate. Speaking as one who lived through an abusive marriage and had the freedom in the U.S.of A. to get a good job and offload the abuser. Which, in turn, made me a born-again conservative!

21 posted on 06/03/2012 9:41:42 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Real men are not threatened by strong women." -- Sarah Palin)
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To: pinochet

If you are merciful to the stupid, you are being cruel to the smart. Yes shame can be cruel, but it motivates parents to be especially attentive to what their daughters are up to. It also forces daughters to resist opening their legs up to any handsome seductive young man who wants to f**k them so they can brag about it afterwards and immediately abandon them when they find out the girl is pregnant. I know my language was a bit harsh (forgive me), but the consequences for the girl and child is even more harsh and forgive will only expand this behavior to the point it will become another burden to the taxpayer who is teaching their daughters to be responsible.
Too many Americans admire the strong family value system in Asian society (Confucius based) but too many do not realize the strict social enforcement mechanism needed to make it work.
Today many woman with college education in big cities go out drinking on weekends till the wee hours of the morning. Some of them wake up surprised they have been raped or worst assaulted or dead. Still many wonder how it could happen. When your society cannot understand that woman have vulnerabilities that are not shared by men, and yet we let them go about free and reckless, well rape, unwanted pregnancies, or rape/death are the consequences. This is true since pre historic times and the savagery do not go away because we have smartphones and ipads.


22 posted on 06/03/2012 9:42:29 AM PDT by Fee
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To: sagar

I wish more single mothers gave their babies up for adoption.

Back in the old days, many single mothers did this. Nowadays, relatively few do.

It seems ironic that, so many Americans are going overseas to adopt, when there are record numbers being born out of wedlock, who theoretically could be adopted out into good homes.


23 posted on 06/03/2012 9:43:10 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: pinochet

This is the NY Times talking. I would trust them not to twist things around.

I wonder if the abortion rate in South Korea is actually higher than in the U.S.? Most single mothers abort their children, and I guess I can believe that. But how many single mothers are there?

I do know that in the U.S. before the grand, left-wing, hippie, anti-Christian Sexual Revolution of 1968, there were few abortions OR unwed mothers. Since Roe v. Wade was introduced, there are far more abortion AND far more unwed mothers.

The same thing with birth control. Before you taught kindergarntners how to put condoms on a banana, there used to be FAR FEWER abortions and FAR FEWER unwanted kids. Sexual license is responsible for huge rises in BOTH.

The purpose of these articles in the New York Times is obvious. They want to outlaw Christianity, kill traditional morality, and introduce total sexual license of all kinds. And they don’t give a damn what the actual consequences are.


24 posted on 06/03/2012 9:44:27 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: married21

” I don’t know how to rebuild that as a cultural norm, however.”

Evangelism and discipleship.


25 posted on 06/03/2012 9:45:43 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

I agree. Again, bring back shotgun weddings!


26 posted on 06/03/2012 9:49:49 AM PDT by utahagen
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To: Dilbert San Diego

I agree. Again, bring back shotgun weddings!


27 posted on 06/03/2012 9:50:00 AM PDT by utahagen
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To: pinochet

Because abortion is vitally unknown in the American Black community...


28 posted on 06/03/2012 9:50:15 AM PDT by Haiku Guy ("The problem with Internet Quotes is that you never know if they are real" -- Abraham Lincoln)
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To: JRandomFreeper; little jeremiah
Murdering babies isn't a valid solution. Encouraging marriage is a solution.

Yes! What about encouraging marriage?

29 posted on 06/03/2012 9:51:47 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: little jeremiah
There’s a third option. Shame is a great inhibitor, as well as cutting off every single fed dime of welfare (the whole spectrum of welfare). Women should be ashamed to have a child out of wedlock, and men should be ashamed for being sperm donors for out of wedlock children. Why shouldn’t people be judged if they slut around? It’s wrong, and it ruins lives. Children without fathers have a great chance of becoming dirtbags. Yes sorry that’s a mean word. But they do. Children NEED a father MARRIED to their mother or they suffer terribly.

I'm not sure how the Left would cadge it, but you seem to have hit on a lethal mixture of racism and sexism..../s

30 posted on 06/03/2012 9:53:44 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: pinochet
If one was to compare South Korean culture (which aborts 96 percent of babies born to single parents) to black American culture that encourages a 70 percent ilegitimacy rate, which of the two cultures is a more moral culture?

I've never been mugged by a South Korean. You never hear about South Koreans burning down neighborhoods.

31 posted on 06/03/2012 9:54:33 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

When I was a teenager in the 60s, it was considered shameful to have a child out of wedlock. Many children who were born to unwed mothers were adopted.

Adoptions now are extremely expensive, social services and other governemnt redtape get in the way, many of those agencies are run by perverts, and babies are actually scarce due to mothers getting welfare and raising them [sic] on their own, or aborting them. Add to that the stories I’ve read of people adopting babies or young toddlers and a few years later birth mommy wants her kid back and via courts get the child back, ripping it from the only home it’s known, and destroying the adoptive parents’ lives.

No welfare plus easier adoptions will greatly lower the illegitimacy rate.

Already more and more people are pro-life. And there are many private orgs that help unwed mothers choose life.

A couple of generations ago the illegitimacy rate for whites was around 2%. Two percent! Now it’s about 20%. It used to be 20% for blacks, now it’s 75 to 80%. So almost 80% of all black kids are born without a father in the home. This signals destruction of civilization.


32 posted on 06/03/2012 9:57:26 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: JRandomFreeper
da Vinci was a bastard. While it would be better for children to be legitimate, I can stand more bastards like da Vinci, or Thomas Paine.

Judging by criminal justice statistics, for every da Vinci, we get millions of rapists, murderers, and general criminals. We get enough well-adjusted smart people from among the legitimate population to keep civilization going.

33 posted on 06/03/2012 9:58:13 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: pinochet
I do not endorse either abortion or illegitimacy. But, in my opinion, the black American culture is more humane and moral than South Korean culture. While I admire Korean people, I think their culture is too judgemental. Do you agree?

The rate of abortions compared to pregnancies is higher in South Korea, but I would dare say that the rate of unwed pregnancy is much higher in the US. For an apples-to-apples comparison, you would have to look at the rate of abortion compared to the number of unmarried women in both countries. I would bet you dollars to donuts that this figure is higher in the US due to the higher number of pregnancies.

34 posted on 06/03/2012 9:58:31 AM PDT by Haiku Guy ("The problem with Internet Quotes is that you never know if they are real" -- Abraham Lincoln)
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To: thecodont
Well, yes, encourage marriage (for everyone but me, but I'm non-reproductive, so I don't count).

Johnson's 'great society' has caused more destruction in America than any other thing.

/johnny

35 posted on 06/03/2012 9:58:38 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: pinochet

Abortion is widely and generally available in South Korea.

Societies that don’t legally enforce laws against abortion may find that abortion rates will be roughly inverse to illegitimacy rates. The less tolerant the society is of illegitimacy, thus helping to minimize the choice of that outcome, the more abortion the society will see, and vice versa.

But if those who commit the crime of abortion have much to fear legally, abortions will generally not be readily available, and women who become pregnant out of wedlock will more often need to find a way to have their babies.

However, over time, women will understand that they don’t have the option of generally-legal abortion available to them, and they will alter their behavior accordingly.

This is certainly what prevailed in the United States pre-Roe, when the rate of abortions was perhaps 10% of the current rate, and when illegitimacy was far lower.


36 posted on 06/03/2012 10:02:48 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: thecodont

An excellent and cheap way to encourage marriage is to eliminate AFDC and all welfare/aid to single mothers. Let private charity take up the slack if it is needed.

The fedgov needs to cut about 80% (for a start) of its programs. It has no business doing most of its nasty work. The War on Poverty is ruining the US, now there are generations of feral subhumans to whom the concept of personal responsibility is completely foreign.


37 posted on 06/03/2012 10:03:44 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: little jeremiah
If there is a serious social or economic problem, you can bet that government is right there in the middle of it, making it worse.

Some problems can't be solved in this world. Libs don't want to hear that, so they gotta meddle.

/johnny

38 posted on 06/03/2012 10:03:47 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Dilbert San Diego
Nowadays, nobody feels any pressure or impulse to do anything. When there is no social stigma about behavior, you unfortunately see an increase in that bad behavior.

In the old days (fifty years ago), the incidence of unwed motherhood was low enough that where it was unworkable for the girl to get married, she could go "visit relatives" for a few months, the child would be adopted by a loving couple, and life would move on. We now have too high an incidence among certain populations to make that workable. Plus black social workers have been adamant that black babies could not be adopted by white couples.

39 posted on 06/03/2012 10:03:47 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: Fee; pinochet
THANK YOU for this excellent post.

It also forces daughters to resist opening their legs up to any handsome seductive young man who wants to f**k them so they can brag about it afterwards and immediately abandon them when they find out the girl is pregnant.

And who is raising these young "men" to have such attitudes?

(Remember when "defrauding a virgin" meant something?)

I know my language was a bit harsh (forgive me), but the consequences for the girl and child is even more harsh and forgive will only expand this behavior to the point it will become another burden to the taxpayer who is teaching their daughters to be responsible.

Don't apologize. This point needs to be driven home.

Today many woman with college education in big cities go out drinking on weekends till the wee hours of the morning. Some of them wake up surprised they have been raped or worst assaulted or dead.

Alcohol + strange men = danger.

Still many wonder how it could happen. When your society cannot understand that woman have vulnerabilities that are not shared by men, and yet we let them go about free and reckless, well rape, unwanted pregnancies, or rape/death are the consequences. This is true since pre historic times and the savagery do not go away because we have smartphones and ipads.

YES!

We don't really seem to have, in our modern society, a way of socializing young women and training them in how to deal with men with an eye towards marriage. I think some places still have cotillion as a way of training young people in social graces, but that's pretty hard to find. It's such an essential, bedrock thing and it is being tragically overlooked. Now you have the value-free, market-driven entertainment (Hollywood) and advertising ("Madison Avenue") industries teaching their values to young people, and to be sure they are not at all concerned about the grave consequences for future generations.

40 posted on 06/03/2012 10:04:21 AM PDT by thecodont
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: Dilbert San Diego

Shame is an important emotion for rational humans with consciences. People who feel no shame when contemplating or performing shameful actions are worse than animals. So now we have a population with a large feral animal consciousness. What to do next?

Well, many people have a lot of ideas, but here is what (IMHO) will happen.

The ongoing economic collapse will speed up, and fedgov will no longer be able to provide for the many millions it provides for. Many will die, and of the ones who survive, some happy few will learn personal responsibility, some will become cunning criminals who hopefully will meet justice.

In the meantime, civil disruption is inevitable even apart from the economic collapse, due to commie crap larding DC and many states. And now racist violence is fomented by the left for lo these many years and now brought to a head of steam by the steaming pile running the country. So the path from “here” to “there” (meaning a place with solutions) is fraught with danger, hardship and violence, and there is no way around it.


42 posted on 06/03/2012 10:08:51 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: JRandomFreeper

I agree; “right there in the middle of it, making it worse” or creating it in the first place!

And also that many problems have no solution. Time fixes many problems in that the problems run their course, people learn/or don’t learn, life goes on, and new problems take their place. The desire to make this world “perfect” creates a perfect hell. We’re here to learn, and learning generally involves getting rapped on the knuckles with a ruler.


43 posted on 06/03/2012 10:12:26 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: pinochet

The basic problem is that the human species is programmed to want to start families at age 16 - 20, and not 25 - 35. The solution is that it has to again become both economically and socially possible for people to marry and start families in their late teens and early twenties, as was the norm in 1850.


44 posted on 06/03/2012 10:17:52 AM PDT by varmintman
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To: pinochet

Your fallacy.


45 posted on 06/03/2012 10:19:46 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: thecodont; Fee; pinochet

There used to be such things as chaperones and matchmakers.

I place a lot of blame on feminism. The very foundation of feminism is evil. And it is no accident that the promoting of homosexuality started right around the same time as the whole shebang of feminism and the “sexual revolution”. Reducing humans to a set of genitals that rule and the rest of the body just follows their orders. I went to a few feminist “womens’ liberation” meetings run by UC Berkeley “wymmyn” in the late 60s, I was a teenager living on my own with a room mate in Berkeley. The room mate was a woman almost 30, a friend of a friend. I went to the meetings becase I was wild and crazy. There was free marijuana being passed around so I managed to sit through I think 3 meetings.

The feminists ranted on and on about Evil Patriarchy and by the last meeting I attended they started in on how much they hated all men, and lusted for other wymmyn. That was it for me, I knew even in my druggie condition that feminism was based on hatred and envy for men, perverted lust, and power madness. Then my room mate started making sexual advances which tied the lid on the creepy horribleness of feminism.

Feminism and homosexualism are joined at the hip, and hatred for all natural authority, which is ultimately God Himself as represented by Natural Law.


46 posted on 06/03/2012 10:19:57 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: varmintman
The basic problem is that the human species is programmed to want to start families at age 16 - 20, and not 25 - 35. The solution is that it has to again become both economically and socially possible for people to marry and start families in their late teens and early twenties, as was the norm in 1850.

Exactly. Young people of marriageable age are not being encouraged towards marriage, rather they are told to "party" and "have fun" and focus on developing their education. I am discussing "socially possible" for early marriage and starting a family, here: There is no reason encouraging education and career development can't occur along with encouraging young people towards marriage.

47 posted on 06/03/2012 10:22:20 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: Colofornian; pinochet
Which is worse: Your daughter giving birth out of wedlock, or your daughter taking her newborn and dismembering it? (Did I -- actually you -- really need to ask the Q) Abortion is infanticide.
Of course this is the correct answer to this question. I was actually amazed to see this question posted here in FR, as if it is something to think about. It's not something to think about.
48 posted on 06/03/2012 10:22:39 AM PDT by samtheman (select environmentalists with clue > 0 .... Result set: no rows returned)
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To: sagar

“Single “mothers” [AND FATHERS] are sluts who could not resist spreading their legs.”

Fixed it.


49 posted on 06/03/2012 10:24:49 AM PDT by Blue Ink
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To: pinochet
But, in my opinion, the black American culture is more humane and moral than South Korean culture.

Which neighborhood would you feel safer living in.

50 posted on 06/03/2012 10:27:29 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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