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U.S. Navy expands 5th Fleet's gulf base
UPI ^ | 6/9/12 | UPI

Posted on 06/09/2012 12:12:53 PM PDT by Jean S

MANAMA, Bahrain, June 8 (UPI) -- The U.S. Navy is doubling the size of its Persian Gulf naval base at Manama, which officials say will greatly enhance the capabilities of the U.S. 5th Fleet, which has headquarters in the island state.

Officials are reluctant to link the $580 million expansion to the confrontation with Iran across the gulf.

They say the project has been in the works since 2003 in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But it coincides with a sharp increase in Iranian naval activity in the gulf in recent weeks.

Work on the upgrade began late in May and is scheduled for completion in five years. The expansion will allow U.S. forces to cope with the growing number of threats in the region's strategic waterways.

It will allow the Bahrain facility to handle up to 30 percent more ships than the 300 vessels a year it currently deals with as U.S. naval operations are ramped up, in large part because of the Iranian threat.

The Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, which oversees Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile programs and controls strategic missile units, have had a series of naval and air maneuvers in the gulf in recent weeks.

These involved the firing of an array of missiles, including anti-ship weapons, and focused primarily on the Strait of Hormuz.

(Excerpt) Read more at upi.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: persiangulf; straitofhormuz

1 posted on 06/09/2012 12:13:06 PM PDT by Jean S
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: Jean S
There is a major campaign underway to make Obama look tough on defense to contrast him with Romney who he will paint as having no foreign policy experience.

The "slam Bain", the "slam Mormonism" and "divide conservatives" strategies are all failing so look for Obama and his MSM allies to double down on the National Defense strategy.

3 posted on 06/09/2012 12:27:27 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Jean S
Doubling Manama, reopening Clark and Subic Bay on top of 250 billion in defense spending cuts?
4 posted on 06/09/2012 12:27:43 PM PDT by exnavy (May the Lord bless and keep our troops.)
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To: exnavy

Don’t think the PI bases will be reopened like the old days.


5 posted on 06/09/2012 12:39:50 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Jean S
How about any time we expand a base, we remove one. Like removing forces from Gemany, South Korea, Japan, England, etc. Why is it in our national security interests to pay for the defense of rich allies?

Seems more like we're taking it in the pooper.
6 posted on 06/09/2012 12:58:19 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: Jean S
How about any time we expand a base, we remove one. Like removing forces from Gemany, South Korea, Japan, England, etc. Why is it in our national security interests to pay for the defense of rich allies?

Seems more like we're taking it in the pooper.
7 posted on 06/09/2012 12:58:37 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: andyk

We need troops overseas to deter any kind of agression against us.

It is important to have 37,000 troops in Japan and 28,500 in South Korea and 42,500 in Hawaii and 21,300 in Alaska and 4,200 in Guam.

This way we are able to have troops and naval forces all over the Pacific Ocean to deter agression from China.


8 posted on 06/09/2012 1:14:59 PM PDT by moonshot925
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To: Jean S
"Did I hear someone say GOLF?"


9 posted on 06/09/2012 1:34:07 PM PDT by Iron Munro (John Adams: 'Two ways to enslave a country. One is by the sword, the other is by debt')
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To: what's up

Obongo Bozo’s foreign policy “credentials” are more credible than his other “credentials?”

I don’t think so!


10 posted on 06/09/2012 3:47:36 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Jean S

It is becoming more and more reasonable for the USN to consider making its own, modular floating island base.

Such floating bases have been considered for many years, and there are many possible variations to the concept, based on need. Conceptually, it would likely be somewhat like small carriers, with large, interlocking flight decks. As needed, they could split apart to facilitate rapidly moving great distances.

Individual ships within the formation would specialize so that as a group they would be far more powerful than individually. With all that deck space, it could launch an air armada of drones that would be very hard to beat, then split apart for command and control of the armada so as not to present such a large target.


11 posted on 06/09/2012 3:56:16 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Something like “Stargate: Atlantis”?


12 posted on 06/09/2012 4:13:29 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: moonshot925
This way we are able to have troops and naval forces all over the Pacific Ocean to deter agression from China.

LOL, China is not investing billions upon billions into the United States just to go to war with us. Not even two years ago, the governor of my state, Rick Perry, went over to China and lobbied them to buy into Texas oil and gas fields. And they did, to the tune of billions of dollars. They are buying up debt, they are buying their way into our lives, you can't walk 30 feet in a Wal-Mart without encountering something made in China. You can't buy a computer from anybody that wasn't made in China. 20-30 years from now, the American aerospace industry will have gone the way of the American computer industry. Those jobs will be in China.

If they want a war with us, it will not be some messy military affair that they can't win. They'll just dump all of their investments or make other financial moves that just gut our economy or wipe out another segment of the American middle class. Those kinds of moves will do more harm to this country than anything they could do militarily.

If you are looking for a war with China, I hate to break it to you my friend, but the war is over and China won. They have the keys to our economy, and we paid them to take them.
13 posted on 06/09/2012 4:19:04 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
It is becoming more and more reasonable for the USN to consider making its own, modular floating island base.

Individual ships within the formation would specialize so that as a group they would be far more powerful than individually. With all that deck space, it could launch an air armada of drones that would be very hard to beat, then split apart for command and control of the armada so as not to present such a large target.



I have a brother in the offshore oil industry - he's got a services company. I've seen what's required to maneuver ships and structures the size of what you are saying. It's not pretty and they would be incredibly vulnerable, and it's very time consuming and resource intensive. It would be far cheaper to just have long range drones and some carriers.
14 posted on 06/09/2012 4:22:18 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: andyk
How about any time we expand a base, we remove one. Like removing forces from Gemany, South Korea, Japan, England, etc. Why is it in our national security interests to pay for the defense of rich allies?

While I think we spend way too much in contributing money and materials directly to other nations, especially certain nations in the Middle East that both Bushes, Clinton, and now Obama are way too fond of, there are good reasons to have some of those bases. Take Germany for instance - major transport hub and major medical facilities. Those aren't things you want placed in a forward position if you can avoid it - you want them in stable allies. Lot of wounded soldiers and Marines coming out of the Middle East pass through the US hospitals in Germany.

I do agree though, we are way too involved militarily with other nations. Some nations, we don't have a choice - if we don't fight them there, they will fight us here. But others....I really question the motives. Makes me think they have lobbyists working for them.
15 posted on 06/09/2012 4:28:10 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr

The Chinese manufacturing sector is only slightly larger than the USA.

$1.922 Trillion VS $1.885 Trillion

The USA is able to manufacture $1.885 Trillion of goods in 2010 with only 11.6 million workers.

China needs over 100 million workers to manufacture $1.922 Trillion worth of goods in 2010.

China owns $1.17 Trillion of US government debt. That is only 8% of the $15.7 Trillion national debt.

We could easily print $1.17 Trillion and pay off the debt to China.


16 posted on 06/09/2012 5:13:38 PM PDT by moonshot925
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To: exnavy; Eric in the Ozarks

>reopening Clark and Subic Bay on top of 250 billion in defense spending cuts?

Negative. Some of these facilities were damaged by volcanic action and there are extensive private businesses set up on these facilities.
What will happen is an increase in Navy port of call visits and thats about it.
Reading the media take on these actions can lead one who is on the ground to wonder if they exist in a parallel universe.


17 posted on 06/09/2012 6:42:07 PM PDT by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: moonshot925

“This way we are able to have troops and naval forces all over the Pacific Ocean to deter agression from China.”

Exactly right. China is beginning to act in the Pacific just like Japan did leading up to WWII.


18 posted on 06/09/2012 7:25:25 PM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: Jean S

Obama will war on Iran to re-elect Obama ...


19 posted on 06/09/2012 8:31:21 PM PDT by dodger
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To: Jean S

Obama will war on Iran to re-elect Obama ...


20 posted on 06/09/2012 8:31:35 PM PDT by dodger
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To: andyk
Why is it in our national security interests to pay for the defense of rich allies?

Good point.

21 posted on 06/09/2012 9:59:41 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: Jean S
(Art.)
The U.S. Navy is doubling the size of its Persian Gulf naval base at Manama, which officials say will greatly enhance the capabilities of the U.S. 5th Fleet, which has headquarters in the island state.

This is not a good idea. Forward basing in the middle of a potentially hostile environment is foolish. HQ ought to be well to the rear, at Diego Garcia or perhaps (if we could get our act together and get hold of it) Socotra, where the Soviets already built long quays and runways back in the early 80's.

Pearl Harbor was NOT located in the Sea of Japan, nor at Subic either, for a very good reason!

22 posted on 06/09/2012 10:28:50 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Sola Veritas
Exactly right. China is beginning to act in the Pacific just like Japan did leading up to WWII.

They're making a big diplomatic push with all the ASEAN countries to try to get the South China Sea divvied up (China's way) and declared a territorial sea and mare clausum.

Which, to extend the Latinity, would be casus belli with the United States and the military rubber match on LOST as well. We will have to use force, to enforce the old Law of the Sea and Admiralty Law, in lieu of the corrupt, kleptocratic dog's breakfast the UN's rogues, thieves, mass-murderers, and cheese-eating surrender monkeys have been cooking up in a back room.

23 posted on 06/09/2012 10:45:26 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: moonshot925; Travis McGee; Neil E. Wright
"...21,300 in Alaska". Really? Why?

While understand a certain amount of troops in Asia with the growing threat of China, I still don't get the 10's of thousands in Germany. Germany is the richest country in the Euro nations. They should be pulling their own weight.

Yes, I know that it's about certain bases supporting certain economics, but I no longer care. Other than Ramstein Air Force Base for central logistics, support, and mid-medical facilities for our casualties, I say pull our troops out and re-positioned them where actually needed. I was a lowly aviation sailor and even I know that a land war will not occur against Russia. Too many nukes pointing at each other.

If smaller nations like in the Balkans want to go to war again, we have the technology now to stop it. If the NORKS want war, that's another thing. Even then, I prefer our troops not be in the horrendous line of fire with the NORK armory.

Yes, I know that past generals and strategists claim you can't take over a country without a ground invasion. I say bullshit, because most times you don't need to invade to stop the bad guys. This is not the 1940's. Just bomb them into oblivion with our new smart bombs and Dresdan won't happen. They will simple give up. Our air superiority plus its air to ground capabilities can pretty much put anyone down with the right ROE. And I'm not even including cruise missles off our Aegis ships and Tridents.

Its time for some of our Allies to carry their own weight and let our troops and families come home. While I am far from a Ron Paul isolationist as can be, there is little justification for many of our sons and daughters to be waiting for the next attack when we have our carrier groups and subs. Tell me where I'm wrong.

24 posted on 06/10/2012 4:15:24 AM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: Jean S; Neil E. Wright; Travis McGee
Make me King of the World for just one week and see how I settle all the conflicts around the world.

1. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Change our Rules of Engagement! Attack us once and find who did and devastate their lands, woman and children included. We did it before and it worked. Think Dresdan and Hiroshima. That stop them, didn't it?
2. Bring home countless 10's of thousands from Germany, Japan, and South Korea and let those rich countries maintain their own defense. Maintain a strong hi-tech presence in the area with Tridents and a few airfields;
3. Tell China either they go with free trade or we will embargo all their shitty products;
4. Dare China to attack us if they don't like the embargo.
5. Tell Iran you have 60 days to destroy your uranium centrifuges or we are going to bomb you back to 7th century you so adore;
6. NORKS, you also have 60 days to stop your nuclear and ballistic missle programs or we will take out your (1) city that shows up on satellite at night;
7. Russia, work with us or lets go Cold War;
8. South America, stop wasting our SEALS, Rangers, AIR FORCE combat controllers time or we will lay waste to your drug cartel compounds on a montly basis.
9. Africa. Get your pissy little tribal shit together or we WILL move in 10's of thousands of troops to stop your raping, torturing, mutilation et al. And we kill you all. Again, think Dresdan.
10. Put out a very clear message and policy to the United Nations that you are defuct and the USA will do what is right. Kick them the f*ck off our shores and see how they do.
11. Disband NATO. Talk about a useless bureaucracy that has outlived its original intent and pisses so many off.
12. Most importantly for our own political survival, I would institute term limits; sunset all legislation not connected to the defense bills; eliminate the EPA, Department of Education, reduce the Department of the Interior for only the most basic needs. I would kill the Department of Homeland Security while making sure all intel agencies correlate. The TSA is gone! And replaced by individual airline (competition) security. The above is just a beginning. Don't start me on the WHO,IMF,ICC, Agenda 21, and all the other sovereignty killing propositions by the new world order. They'd all be gone.

After being King for the week and doing all the above, I would gladly go to jail or face a firing squad.

25 posted on 06/10/2012 4:57:55 AM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: af_vet_rr

It’s a quality vs. quantity argument, in my mind. An assembled configuration would be a rare thing and only for a short time. A situation like the start of GW I or II in which there is an intense logistical need. Combat operations would still be provided by the carrier groups, with this providing a “rear area” major logistical support.

Individual ships would be of low target value, and when the bulk resupply arrived on the assembled configuration, individual ships would break off to make short range cargo hauls to the carrier groups.

In effect, it shortens the resupply distance from all the way from the US to in theater. And this is a telling point, as it is a vulnerability for the US, which only has two fully capable deep water ports for the Pacific, Bremerton and San Diego.

And any conflict with China is predicated on China taking out these two facilities first, which would logistically cripple the US Pacific fleet for a vital week or two, and would likely initiate any conflict.

Lots of ins and out and ups and downs to things, but worth a look.


26 posted on 06/10/2012 6:19:34 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: what's up

I agree that will be his goal. My take on that is all one has to do is play the bowing and apologizing video clips and this guy will be toast. Couple these with the clip that shows Obama complimenting numerous nations with the exact same phrase, and it will be obvious that this guy is the poster boy for the empty suit campaign.


27 posted on 06/10/2012 10:01:42 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Republicanism: Y1 Rant Y2 Rant Y3 Rant Y4, Oh nevermind, vote for him anyway. Rinse & Repeat!)
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To: af_vet_rr
“LOL, China is not investing billions upon billions into the United States just to go to war with us.”

On December 6th, 1941 the smart folks didn't think it possible we could be attacked by carrier based aircraft.

28 posted on 06/10/2012 10:12:09 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland ("The writing is on the wall - Unions are screwed. reformist2 10:04 PM #27"\)
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To: A Navy Vet

having spent 6 years in the navy, thank-you. I really like your plan.


29 posted on 06/10/2012 5:13:08 PM PDT by brivette
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To: andyk

In my opinion: Not a great idea.

There is already a BRAC Commission, a Pentagon entity the sole purpose of which is to CLOSE MILITARY FACILITIES!

Are you actually aware of how many military facilities have been closed and or down-sized since 1990?

It is my view that the BRAC Commission is now a run-away freight train: It works with bureaucratic blindness and keeps trimming our resources.

In my opinion the BRAC Commission needs to be placed on hold.

The expansion/reopening of few overseas bases does not even come close to mitigating some of the most egregious closures of the past two decades (e.g., George AFB, Norton AFB, several Navy facilities in California, Kelly AFB, Ft Ord, and more).

And, don’t get me started on the unfortunate new “Joint Basing” concept . . . . (Insanity.)


30 posted on 06/10/2012 6:29:32 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Islam is a Hate Crime. (Blowback: Faithfully farting towards Mecca five times daily!))
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To: exnavy

Magasaysay Street!!! Woo Hoo!!! ;-)


31 posted on 06/10/2012 7:45:15 PM PDT by stevie_d_64 (It's not the color of one's skin that offends people...it's how thin it is.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Interesting concept, but the stresses at the link points for all those separate hulls would be astronomical.


32 posted on 06/11/2012 6:36:24 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Smokin' Joe

There may be a simple, but peculiar solution for that. There is now a metal version of Velcro, called “Metaklett”, which can support loads of up to 35 tons per square meter.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6154909/Steel-version-of-Velcro-strong-enough-to-support-buildings.html

Of course, adapting such technology to quickly connect and disconnect ships at sea would keep the ONR busy for a while, but the potential is there. Plus the desirability of having a convenient rear area port facility should not be underestimated. In addition to surface ships, its design could even permit some degree of discreet access to submarines.


33 posted on 06/11/2012 7:43:28 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: HereInTheHeartland
On December 6th, 1941 the smart folks didn't think it possible we could be attacked by carrier based aircraft.

And in the 1970s and 1980s, the smart folks didn't think that within 30-40 years all of the American computer manufacturing would have moved to China.

Prior to December 6, 1941, the Japanese didn't invest over 60% of their currency reserves into buying up US treasury and agency bonds, they weren't investing $10s of billions into American equity firms, they weren't spending billions on oil and gas fields in the US, they weren't spending $7 billion a year on American real estate investments. The Chinese have been doing all of that.

China wants to be the world's economic power. A military or economic conflict with the United States would end that dream. China did not come all this way only to do something foolish like fight us militarily or economically, especially since a military or economic conflict with us would damage them as much, if not more.

What we see right now is the tip of the iceberg. China can't become the world's economic power by fighting us, they have to do it by owning us. Sure, we can avoid places like Wal-Mart that are pushing Chinese crap upon us, but we can't avoid buying computers that were made in China, and 20-30 years from now when American companies are looking at buying Chinese airliners and Americans are looking at buy Chinese cars, that's when it's going to really hit home that they've won.
34 posted on 06/11/2012 5:33:48 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: moonshot925
The USA is able to manufacture $1.885 Trillion of goods in 2010 with only 11.6 million workers.

China needs over 100 million workers to manufacture $1.922 Trillion worth of goods in 2010.


China has hundreds of millions of people who will work for a fraction of what an American would or could work for, and they put in 60 hours (or more) weeks.

China owns $1.17 Trillion of US government debt. That is only 8% of the $15.7 Trillion national debt.

We could easily print $1.17 Trillion and pay off the debt to China.


Putting aside damage that it might cause our economy in the long run, the US government might be able to make that debt go away, but they can't make the other Chinese investments go away. That's the bigger problem to me. Right now China makes all of our computers. What happens when they make all of our cars or airplanes? There comes a tipping point at which we can't easily recover, and we are headed there.
35 posted on 06/11/2012 5:39:12 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr

Wholeheartedly agreed.

We need to wake the * up. Soon.

Stop giving stuff away, and stop wishing on good things. Be realistic, and be honest.

That means, prepare for war. With China. Then keep that level of preparation and never change it.

Make peace, by preparing for war.

The alternative is unthinkable.

We need to stop giving everything away.

Now.


36 posted on 06/11/2012 5:48:12 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (America doesn't need any new laws. America needs freedom!)
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To: af_vet_rr
Sure what you say is accurate and logical. But the world often doesn't work in rational ways.

The Japanese could have gotten much further ahead had they chose a different path in 1941 I would think.

37 posted on 06/11/2012 6:52:22 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland ("The writing is on the wall - Unions are screwed. reformist2 10:04 PM #27"\)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
It's the old welder's problem. Sure, the weld will hold, but will the metal around it? Neat stuff, though, and thanks for the link.

The concept reminds me of the mulberries used on D-day, only these would be self-propelled and intended to stay afloat.

Still, if it came to a shooting war, catching one of these platforms assembled or just getting on the move with a nuclear-tipped torpedo would be the equivalent of nailing the Japanese carriers at Midway.

It would be as much a strategic decision as a tactical one to decide how large a basket one wanted to place the eggs in.

38 posted on 06/11/2012 10:14:33 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Smokin' Joe

I don’t think this could be used in any kind of scenario where the enemy had either nuclear or significant naval assets. It is more along the lines of GW I or II, where the US has established air superiority, and the enemy neither has enough nuclear missiles nor submarines to pose a threat that way.

Think of it as a midway point between the destination and Diego Garcia, significantly reducing resupply and refueling times for naval assets. Not terribly useful for the Air Force.

It could also be used to pre-position a lot of Army hardware prior to a land occupation.


39 posted on 06/12/2012 6:16:33 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: man_in_tx
Are you actually aware of how many military facilities have been closed and or down-sized since 1990?

Yep, I was at many of them.
40 posted on 06/12/2012 1:05:31 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: HereInTheHeartland
Sure what you say is accurate and logical. But the world often doesn't work in rational ways.

The Japanese could have gotten much further ahead had they chose a different path in 1941 I would think.


And the actions of Japan in WWII and other nations before and since, as well as Chinese history, is exactly is why the Chinese have decided to quietly and not-so-quietly undermine our economic power. I would dare say it's far cheaper to take us on economically than militarily, especially if they have the patience and the manpower, which they do.
41 posted on 06/13/2012 7:43:19 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
The alternative is unthinkable.

We need to stop giving everything away.

Now.


Tell that to companies like Boeing, who even as they were signing technology and manufacturing agreements with Chinese companies, acknowledged that the Chinese were their biggest competitor in the long run.

When you have companies who knowingly enter contracts with other companies whose ambitions include replacing or undermining those companies in the future, you're in trouble.

Like I said, if our aerospace and defense industries start losing international sales to Chinese companies, we're going to be in serious trouble. We survived giving our computer industry away. We will not survive giving away too many more industries.

But hey, at least we can't give away the jobs like being door greeters at Wal-Mart. The Chinese have to have a place to sell their cheap crap somewhere!
42 posted on 06/13/2012 7:49:56 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: andyk

You were at many of them?

Do you work on the BRAC Commission?


43 posted on 06/23/2012 1:06:00 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Islam is a Hate Crime. (Blowback: Faithfully farting towards Mecca five times daily!))
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To: what's up

The Navy doesn’t have enough ships to look ‘tough on defense’.

And Admiral Mullen is telling sailors to leave the Navy if they don’t like, or have religous issues with the new gay directives from the president.

Nope, the Navy is reduced to flying the rainbow flag over Bahrain. That’s obama’s ‘show of defense’.


44 posted on 06/23/2012 1:11:32 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: man_in_tx
Do you work on the BRAC Commission?

Haha, no. I was an AF brat, and was also enlisted myself.
45 posted on 06/23/2012 3:24:45 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: man_in_tx

Leon Panetta was a big winner in the closing of Fort Ord, in California.

He now has a taxpayer funded ‘institute’ on the former base, where his wife gets a handsome salary to run it.

There was a conference in California in 1996 I think, run by Mikhail Gorbachev, attended by many many politicians involved in base closings. The theme which has been accomplished around the country, was to close bases and then allow globalist institutes and schools take them over. In Fort Ord, not only does the rotten globalist Panetta institute exist, but a state university which teaches ‘social justice’ was also put there.

Gorbachev was handed keys to a ‘villa’ on the San Francisco Presidio, the minute it was shut down. How ironic that the communist enemy from the cold war, shooed the military away at the gateway to the pacific and and is ensconced in the military base as its prize tenet. Traitor politicians helped him.

Who won the cold war? Not US!


46 posted on 06/25/2012 9:19:58 AM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: hedgetrimmer

Great post.


47 posted on 07/02/2012 8:00:27 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Islam is a Hate Crime. (Blowback: Faithfully farting towards Mecca five times daily!))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

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