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Justifiable homicides nearly triple after Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law passed
news-journalonline.com ^ | 10 June, 2012 | CHRIS GRAHAM

Posted on 06/10/2012 4:26:01 AM PDT by marktwain

DAYTONA BEACH -- Charles Robbins stumbled to his feet as someone pounded on his door.

Outside the Woodland Avenue residence stood 24-year-old Tyler Orshoski, a career criminal who police believe was ready to strike again.

The 82-year-old man grabbed a World War II-era Russian-built Tokerev, walked to the door and fired once.

"I did what I had to do and I would do it again," the Daytona Beach man said.

Minutes later, Orshoski lay dead on Robbins' porch. Robbins was never charged.

The shooting is one of numerous killings in Volusia and Flagler counties from 2005 to 2012 carried out in the name of self-defense and covered under Florida's controversial statute known as "stand your ground, " according to a News-Journal analysis.

State records show justifiable homicides nearly tripled in the five years after stand your ground passed compared to the previous five years. The number of concealed weapons permits almost quadrupled in the same time period.

In Volusia and Flagler, four out of six people who killed their would-be attackers were never charged or convicted.

The 7-year-old law is under intense scrutiny after unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by Sanford neighborhood watch volunteer and concealed weapons permit licensee George Zimmerman. The 28-year-old Zimmerman said the teen attacked him, but Martin's family claims the boy was killed in cold blood.

Zimmerman initially wasn't arrested by Sanford police, only to be charged with second-degree murder by the State Attorney's Office following weeks of nationwide protests.

Since the Feb. 26 killing of Martin, some have lined up against stand your ground, claiming the law discourages restraint and has led to unnecessary deaths. Gun rights advocates and the bill's co-sponsor, though, believe the law deters crime and allows people like Robbins the right to protect themselves from an imminent threat.

"If you empower people to stop violent acts, they can, they will and they did," said state Rep. Dennis Baxley, who co-sponsored the stand your ground statute.

'WE NEEDED TO STAND WITH THEM'

Passed in 2005, the stand your ground statute was meant to clarify how citizens could act in the face of danger. It was driven mostly by fears from hurricane-weary residents, and that fear was reinforced after watching TV coverage of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, which devastated New Orleans, said Baxley, an Ocala Republican.

"People were highly sensitized about that and were worried about protecting themselves and their property," he said.

Until stand your ground was passed, citizens and homeowners were governed by the "castle doctrine," rooted in English common law, which allows someone to protect themselves or their property if backed into a corner.

But the castle doctrine left a lot of gray area, Baxley said.

"Generally, people had a duty to retreat," he said. "But that only gave people seconds to decide whether they wanted to be a victim or not.

"We needed to stand with them and tell them they weren't going to be treated like criminals."

Since the law went into effect, justifiable homicides have risen drastically, according to statistics kept by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

From 2000 to the end of 2005, when stand your ground passed, there were 78 killings that were deemed justified.

In the six years after the law was passed, 228 people were killed by citizens acting in self-defense-- about one justified homicide every 10 days.

Dan Gross, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Campaign, a pro-gun control advocacy group, said stand your ground created a mentality of fear and paranoia -- a deadly combination for someone carrying a weapon.

"It was a recipe for disaster," he said.

LOCAL CASES

An analysis by The Daytona Beach News-Journal of its news archives and police records found that since 2005, lethal force was used and claimed by someone as self-defense in at least 11 cases. There are likely more.

The State Attorney's Office -- or any state agency for that matter -- does not keep track of cases covered under the stand your ground statute.

Matt Phillips, an assistant public defender in Volusia County, said it's likely that well over 100 stand your ground cases have been recorded across the state. A Tampa Bay Times analysis puts the number near 200.

"It was a big change to Florida law when it passed," Phillips said. "It took the castle doctrine onto the street."

Circuit Judge Joseph Will, who has never presided over a stand your ground case but has studied the law, said the statute essentially makes it easier for people to shoot first and ask for forgiveness later.

"I think it's a bad idea in a society where someone is packing heat on every corner to make it easier to shoot each other," he said.

Volusia County's first fatal self-defense case covered by the law came less than a year after it passed. Luis Perez was ambushed outside his aunt's Deltona home by a man, identified by authorities as Roberto Legarreta, 37, armed with a large knife, said sheriff's spokesman Gary Davidson. The 28-year-old Perez tried to start his vehicle, but couldn't and instead opened fire. Legarreta suffered multiple gunshot wounds and died at the scene.

Deputies ruled the shooting was justified and Perez was never charged.

In the following years, seven more people would be exonerated under the law. They include two local residents who warded off intruders.

Walter Watson, 70, shot and injured 28-year-old Thomas Andrew Lockhart, an intruder who threatened to kill Watson in 2007, according to an incident report from Daytona Beach police.

Officers say Watson was staying in a shed on the property when he heard a noise and he grabbed a .38-caliber revolver and flashlight. Lockhart told Watson to turn off the flashlight or "I'll kill you." Watson shot the intruder in the arm and chest, police said. Lockhart, who survived, was charged with burglary. He pleaded no contest and was later sentenced to two years in prison. Watson was not charged.

In 2009, 34-year-old Ormond Beach resident Dayne Rollins was involved in a shootout with three suspects who broke into Rollins' home looking for money and prescription drugs, according to an incident report.

The three suspects, who were grazed by bullets in the shooting, were charged with home invasion robbery. Rollins wasn't charged in the shooting, though he was arrested for possession of a short-barreled shotgun. Court records show prosecutors declined to pursue the case and it was dropped.

In a more recent case in Flagler County, Paul Miller also claims self-defense, though his case doesn't appear to be as clear cut.

Police say Miller, 65, opened fire March 14 on his Flagler Beach neighbor Dana Mulhall after an argument over Miller's barking dogs, police said. Authorities say Miller shot Mulhall five times, including twice in the back as he fled.

Miller is charged with second-degree murder, though his attorney has declined to say whether stand your ground will be invoked in court.

GUNS, KNIVES AND A 2-BY-4

Of the 11 Volusia and Flagler self defense cases, eight of them involved firearms. Four of the shooters, three with lengthy criminal histories, at the time held a concealed weapons permit, a license that has caught on like a wildfire with Florida residents after stand your ground was passed.

In 1988, there were 32,814 valid concealed weapons permits statewide; 56 of these were in Flagler County and 843 of them were issued in Volusia, according to the Division of Licensing.

Nearly 25 years later, the state has issued close to 1 million concealed weapons permits and about 1 in 19 Volusia County residents -- 26,365 -- were licensed to carry a concealed weapon as of May 31. One in 17 or 5,450 Flagler residents have a concealed weapons permit.

In the five years before stand your ground was passed, a combined 136,944 additional permits were issued statewide. In the five years after the law passed, the number of concealed weapons permits nearly quadrupled -- with a combined 446,521 licenses being issued, according to state records.

Baxley said people are arming themselves because now they know they can put up a fight. According to the Division of Licensing, concealed weapon licensees can carry a firearm in most public areas, except for places like a courtroom, jail, bar or school.

"Criminals don't know which person will defend themselves and which ones won't," Baxley said.

But Gross of the Brady Campaign said Florida's gun laws make it easy for firearms to fall into the wrong hands.

"It's beyond easy to get a gun permit," he said.

Concealed weapons permits, though, cover all types of weapons, not just guns. While lethal force self-defense cases involving firearms garner the most notoriety, there are some local cases that involved other types of weapons including knives and a wooden board.

- In 2010, Vincent Strollo, 52, who was from Daytona Beach at the time, bashed James Houghtaling in the face with a 2-by-4, claiming to police he was defending himself and his girlfriend from the drunken attacker. Strollo was initially charged with aggravated battery, but a judge ruled he was immune from prosecution, according to court records.

- Also in 2010, John David Falwell claimed Matthew Alcott slammed him to the floor of his Daytona Beach motel room, knocking him unconscious. Police said when the 40-year-old Falwell came to, he swung a knife and stabbed Alcott in the back.

A judge threw out Falwell's self-defense claim and he was later convicted of attempted murder and sentenced to 20 years in prison.

- Cindy Gilliland, 42, testified in court she stabbed her boyfriend Bradley Stradtman to death in self-defense after he slapped her in the mouth and pushed her into a kitchen counter during a 2010 domestic dispute. The judge denied Gilliland's claim, and her second-degree murder trial is scheduled for later this summer.

Public Defender Phillips, whose office is representing Gilliland, said Florida's stand your ground law allowed for a legal avenue for law-abiding citizens to protect themselves.

"People are maybe moving to use deadly force more than they used to," he said. "Theoretically, you could say that's what the Legislature wanted."

But law enforcement officials say it also set a dangerous precedent.

'GOOD LAW USED BY CRIMINALS'

From 2009 to 2010, three people involved in Daytona Beach drug deals fatally shot someone, but only one was charged.

The most recent case involved Emanuel Rivera, who police say shot and killed Lekeefe Lee, 25, after the two argued about a marijuana sale. Rivera initially told detectives Lee appeared to reach for a gun, but his story changed over time and he was charged with second-degree murder, said Daytona Beach Police Chief Mike Chitwood.

In the other cases, Leonard Murphy and Leavitis Golphin were not charged because they said they shot in self-defense and were concealed weapons permit holders, Chitwood said.

Golphin was having marijuana delivered to his Jean Street apartment so he could later sell it, detectives say. As it was being delivered, Armando Navarro Jr., 24, armed with a 9 mm handgun, shot deliveryman Merton Lindsay before he was gunned down by Golphin, according to an incident report.

A year later, police say Tarrence Gatlin, 18, and Murphy met in an apartment complex parking lot for a drug deal involving prescription pills. However, Gatlin tried to rob Murphy without giving him pills.

Murphy shot Gatlin three times, police said, and the killing was cleared through the scope of stand your ground, Chitwood said.

"We have people committing nefarious activities that are running around under the cover of the law," the chief said.

Chitwood is among a growing number in the law enforcement community who believe the law needs to be amended.

"We have a good law that's being used by criminals," Chitwood said.

Volusia County Sheriff Ben Johnson, a supporter of gun rights, said stand your ground is too broad and would support an amendment to limit the use of it.

"While there's no question that the use of defensive deadly force is absolutely necessary on occasion, there also are other circumstances when confrontations can be resolved without having to take a life," spokesman Davidson wrote on behalf of the sheriff.

Gross said the law sets a dangerous pattern of allowing killers to go free.

"We have people who wouldn't be considered ordinary law-abiding citizens and they're often being exonerated under the law," he said.

Stand your ground drew national criticism after Martin was killed. As thousands rallied across the nation for Zimmerman's arrest, a group of ministers, joined by the Rev. Jesse Jackson, called for stand your ground to be repealed.

"These laws incentivize vigilantism, take-the-law-into-your-own hands, kill or be killed. That's beneath the civility of a great nation," Jackson said, according to multiple media reports.

Before the stand your ground statute was passed, it was left up to a jury and common sense to determine who was defending themselves and who wasn't, Judge Will said.

But now people who invoke the stand your ground statute have the right to a hearing before a judge and can be given immunity based on a "preponderance of evidence," making it easier for someone to prove they acted within the law, Phillips said.

"We had a law that had been used for well over 100 years, it was time-tested and worked for everyone," Will said of the castle doctrine. "Someone decided to fix something that wasn't broken and they fixed it badly."

PUBLIC FAVORS LAW

State Rep. Baxley admits he's disappointed in some of the applications of stand your ground, but that is to be expected with any new law.

"No matter what the law is, there's going to be close calls that will be near the foul line," he said. "It is in or is it out?"

Baxley is one of 17 members appointed by Gov. Rick Scott to the Task Force on Citizen Safety and Protection, which will meet for the first time at 9 a.m. Tuesday in Seminole County. The state representative was quick to point out the committee will not just review the stand your ground law, but all aspects of safety.

"I truly believe the law has saved lives," he said. "I'm not going to change anything that diminishes safety."

But Gross of the Brady Campaign said to save lives stand your ground must go or Florida's legislators need to strengthen the state's gun laws.

"Since stand your ground has passed, Florida has become one of the most dangerous states in the country while the others got safer," he said. "There is a dangerous mentality that has led to unnecessary tragedies."

Though stand your ground has been questioned on a national level, it appears to be well-liked by a majority of Florida's voters, according to a recent poll conducted by Quinnipiac University. About 56 percent support the law and 35 percent oppose it, the poll shows.

Forrest Buckwald, owner of Buck's Gun Rack who also has a concealed weapons license, said he believes stand your ground empowers older people and others to protect themselves.

"I don't think I can stand up in a fistfight anymore," said the 60-year-old store owner. "The only reason I carry a gun is so that if my life is in immediate danger I can defend myself. It's important to have this law to avoid being charged as a criminal."

Deltona Mayor John Masiarczyk has had a concealed weapons permit since the 1990s when some would-be robbers drove up next to him while he was about to make a deposit and demanded his money. The mayor said he carries his weapon as a precaution but tries to avoid situations where his firearm may be needed.

"I'd rather find another way, but I don't want to see them take that right away," he said.

Gross said had stand your ground not been passed, it's likely Trayvon Martin would be alive today.

"If Zimmerman didn't get out of his truck; if he didn't have a gun; it would have never happened," he said.

Charles Robbins said he has no regrets about the fatal shot he delivered earlier this year -- law or not. He believes had he used restraint, he may be dead today.

"I'm glad I did it, and I would do it again," he said. "What would you do if someone tried breaking into your house?"


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: banglist; defense; fl; stand; standyourground; standyourgroundlaw
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Pictures of defenders and assailants at the site. Justifed homicides up, crime down. For "Progressives", this is hard to understand.
1 posted on 06/10/2012 4:26:14 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
vMinutes later, Orshoski lay dead on Robbins' porch. Robbins was never charged.

Orshoski, a "career criminal" according to the article open.

I'd call that a good kill, way to clean up the scumballs.

2 posted on 06/10/2012 4:28:10 AM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: marktwain

I live with my mother and sister and we are probably the last people in the state without a gun.

My mother will not allow one in the house,which is silly.

G-d-forbid we need one.


3 posted on 06/10/2012 4:28:43 AM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (It's hurricane season! Yay!)
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To: usconservative

I think it’s hysterical when someone f***s with an elderly person and gets what’s comin’ to them.


4 posted on 06/10/2012 4:30:12 AM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (It's hurricane season! Yay!)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

Don’t worry the government will protect you


5 posted on 06/10/2012 4:35:29 AM PDT by ronnie raygun (B B)
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To: marktwain

The same thing happened in Detroit except for the fact that shooter and “receiver” tend to be the same race.


6 posted on 06/10/2012 4:36:19 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: marktwain
"If Zimmerman didn't get out of his truck; if he didn't have a gun; it would have never happened," he said. "

If Trayvon had not ATTACKED Zimmerman, he would be alive today

7 posted on 06/10/2012 4:36:44 AM PDT by Mr. K (I AM WRITING-IN PALIN/GINGRICH)
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To: marktwain

And, when surveyed, the folks in Florida say leave the law as is...70% - 30%.


8 posted on 06/10/2012 4:37:36 AM PDT by Bushbacker1 (I miss President Bush! 2012 - The End Of An Error! (Oathkeeper))
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To: marktwain

The left absolute HATE these laws. They want Americans to be a punch of cowering pansies like the Brits have been reduced to.

To them 100 dead or raped victims is preferable to 1 unjustified shooting in self-defense. It’s essentially the way they feel about the death penalty, but twisted around.

The only way to fight them and beat them on this issue is to make sure that EVERY good guy spends at least some time on the range holding and firing a gun. They make nice wedding gifts too.


9 posted on 06/10/2012 4:48:25 AM PDT by BobL
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

“I think it’s hysterical when someone f***s with an elderly person and gets what’s comin’ to them.”

**************

Ditto.

The most effective form of justice is that which is carried out upon the would-be perpetrator by the intended victim at the scene of the crime.

Swift, usually permanent, and sends a nice message to idiots thinking about trying their luck to boot.


10 posted on 06/10/2012 5:02:31 AM PDT by gzzimlich
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To: BobL

“They want Americans to be a punch of cowering pansies like the Brits have been reduced to.”

**********

We’ve come around a bit since the coalition gov’t issued “guidance” that people who kill in self-defence inside their homes should not be prosecuted provided they were in reasonable fear of their lives.

There have now been several cases where people have gone free after stabbing home-invasion burglars and attempted strong-armed robbers to death.

Of course the firearms laws are absolutely idiotic in that they guarantee its impossible to use one in a realistic home-defense scenario and unfortunately I don’t see any relief on the horizon.

I love to shoot (spent 20 years in the US) but refuse to apply for a permit here because getting one gives the police the right to enter your home at any time, at their sole discretion, to inspect your storage locker (which must be government approved and kept locked). They can also seize your guns at any time, for literally any reason, again at their discretion.

Its absolute madness.


11 posted on 06/10/2012 5:10:26 AM PDT by gzzimlich
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To: marktwain
"Since stand your ground has passed, Florida has become one of the most dangerous states in the country while the others got safer," [the Brady spokesbot] said. "There is a dangerous mentality that has led to unnecessary tragedies."

I don't see anything here about someone who wasn't engaged in a plausibly threatening assault getting killed as a result of SYG and the killer let off the hook on the same account. This is a vast insult to the memory of Mr. Brady, who was injured by shots fired at Ronald Reagan by a nut.

12 posted on 06/10/2012 5:11:07 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Let me ABOs run loose Lou!)
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To: marktwain
There was absolutely no need for the law. Self defense and/or protecting your home is sufficient.

Zimmerman...that was the guy that got his head bashed....acted in self defense...PERIOD.

If Tray was a good boy, he would have been in school.

And Tray's own web site speaks volumes...along with the "practice street fighting" video.

13 posted on 06/10/2012 5:19:28 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: marktwain

“Leonard Murphy and Leavitis Golphin were not charged because they said they shot in self-defense and were concealed weapons permit holders, Chitwood said.

Golphin was having marijuana delivered to his Jean Street apartment so he could later sell it...”

Persons involved in illegal activties, in this case drug sales, should not be protected by SYG, or possess Concealed Carry permits.


14 posted on 06/10/2012 5:24:13 AM PDT by Tahoe3002
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To: Sacajaweau

True enough, the law didn’t figure in the Tray/Zimm altercation.

I’d disagree about there being “no need” for it, as the body of judge made law was trending against 2nd amendment rights. This law ratified what ought to have been common sense but which became uncommon.


15 posted on 06/10/2012 5:25:45 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Let me ABOs run loose Lou!)
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To: Tahoe3002

BTW, I do not believe, any longer, that marijuana should be illegal.

I do not like or respect illicit drug users but I no longer believe the government has a right or need to restrict marijuana....they can tax it like everything else.


16 posted on 06/10/2012 5:27:24 AM PDT by Tahoe3002
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To: Sacajaweau
“There was absolutely no need for the law. Self defense and/or protecting your home is sufficient.”

No, there was a need for the law. It prevents the perp’s family from filing suit and you get two bites at the apple to defend yourself in court, once before a judge, and once before a judge and jury.

17 posted on 06/10/2012 5:28:07 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Tahoe3002

As odious as it may seem, this is one less druggy on the streets even if another one got off scot free for doing it. This is called giving the devil the benefit of law (google “all the laws being flat”).


18 posted on 06/10/2012 5:29:43 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Let me ABOs run loose Lou!)
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To: Sacajaweau
When Florida went from Common Law to Code Law the right of self defense went with with it. Florida does not have a Self Defense Law. Ask a State Attorney. Or better yet, ask a prisin inmate who is doing time for an offense he/she condidered self defense. Also, in Florida, one cannot use deadly force to defend one's property.

At the time this law was enacted, the law abiding citizen desparately needed the protection this law offered.

However, it was not universally appreicated.Among its foes were Liberals, some Sheriffs,some Police Chiefs, State Attorneys, newspaper editoral boards, etal.

19 posted on 06/10/2012 5:34:08 AM PDT by sport
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To: Sacajaweau
There was absolutely no need for the law. Self defense and/or protecting your home is sufficient.

Here is what the law does. It prevents a Leftist sheriff/prosecutor from arresting you and making you stand trial to prove that it was self-defense, and it also prevents the perp or their family from suing you. Something that is financially devastating to most people.

The law came about, because it was necessary to keep the government in check.

20 posted on 06/10/2012 5:35:18 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: marktwain; All

From 1976-2005 per DOJ statistics, blacks were 12% of the population yet accounted for an astounding 52.2% of all homicides!

Now follow me here. We know that most black grandmothers and most balck 2 year old children are not out gangbanging, so who is? By and large, it is black males between the agest of 15 and 35. This group is apporximately 20% of the total black population. 12% times .2 = 2.4% of the population.

And since we also know that there are good black men in this group, as many go on to college and become entrepreneurs, we can knock 50% and perhaps more out of this group. But for the sake of our argument, let’s use 50%. So 50% of 2.4% is 1.2%.

Approximately 52.2% of all homicides are committed by 1.2% of the population.

This is a National Epidemic, yet where is the media on this? Heck, where is the CDC warning?

Black homicide, the elephant in the room


21 posted on 06/10/2012 5:37:33 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (Read SCOTUS Castle Rock vs Gonzales before dialing 911!)
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To: Tahoe3002

Were most (if not all) presently banned drugs were brought back into the purview of physicians, the related murders and assaults would vastly decrease, as would the restless search for more and more bizarre highs from things just outside of the reach of the law’s definition. But America has painted itself into a prohibitionist corner and won’t be able to get back out without some messy tracks being made. It’s a liberal fallacy, not a conservative ideal, that everything morally objectionable has to be banned.


22 posted on 06/10/2012 5:38:18 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Let me ABOs run loose Lou!)
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To: gzzimlich

And added to everything you mentioned, you let them know in writing, what you have and where it is. Anytime they choose to take it. And besides, with all these “permits” a stroke of the pen invalidates them.


23 posted on 06/10/2012 5:44:57 AM PDT by sport
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To: marktwain

If they really want to stop violent deaths (both of citizens and perps) a universal Constitutional Right to Bear Arms needs to stop being hindered. Justified killings will go up for a while and criminals killing of citizens will decline. Eventually it will get so dangerous for the criminals that they will think before acting and the need to kill them will also go down.


24 posted on 06/10/2012 5:50:24 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Okay...I can see the need....but only because the justice system is screwed up as to the right of self defense...and the right to bear arms and the right to protect your property.


25 posted on 06/10/2012 5:54:47 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: marktwain

I have mixed feelings regarding it. There are perps who can and will exploit the loopholes in any law — SYG being one of those.


26 posted on 06/10/2012 5:55:05 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: marktwain
“Stand Your Ground’ is taking the food out of the mouths of public defenders, prosecutors, judges, bailiffs, court recorders, jailers and all the other taxpayer leeches of the legal system. Not to mention journalists who have less crime to write about.
27 posted on 06/10/2012 5:58:43 AM PDT by fella ("As it was before Noah, so shall it be again.")
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To: marktwain

It will get better as we clean out the gene pool.


28 posted on 06/10/2012 6:06:37 AM PDT by ThePatriotsFlag (Anybody but Obama.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
"Since stand your ground has passed, Florida has become one of the most dangerous states in the country [FOR CRIMINALS]..."

There. Edited to reflect the truth.

29 posted on 06/10/2012 6:08:55 AM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Sacajaweau

“Circuit Judge Joseph Will, who has never presided over a stand your ground case but has studied the law, said the statute essentially makes it easier for people to shoot first and ask for forgiveness later.I think it’s a bad idea in a society where someone is packing heat on every corner to make it easier to shoot each other,” he said.

Bet the farm that this “judge” has six armed deputies in the courthouse, ready to protect his left-wing a$$. He’s part of the worthless elitist scum who have infiltrated our government and believes in old England serfdom: One law for me and another for thee.

Scum like this pig judge need to be turned out of office and given a one-way ticket to North Korea.

Do your duty, Florida patriots.


30 posted on 06/10/2012 6:09:56 AM PDT by sergeantdave (Public unions exist to protect the unions from the taxpaying public)
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To: marktwain

Dan Gross, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Campaign, a pro-gun control advocacy group, said stand your ground created a mentality of fear and paranoia — a deadly combination for someone carrying a weapon.

“It was a recipe for disaster,” he said.


Liberal idiot! What he wants is the law-abiding to run away and cower from the “empowered criminals” who he represents stealthily.


31 posted on 06/10/2012 6:11:19 AM PDT by The Working Man
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To: marktwain

Apparently, it was a much-needed law.


32 posted on 06/10/2012 6:16:07 AM PDT by rabidralph
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To: Tahoe3002

Spoken like a true Libertarian.


33 posted on 06/10/2012 6:17:50 AM PDT by traderrob6
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To: marktwain

What a pant load.

About 7000 murders in Florida in the same time span mentioned in the article as the 228 “Stand your Ground” claims.

So, not even counting justifiable homicides, etc, only 3% of of the people killed were deemed to be killed in the name of “Stand your Ground”.

And yet the Left continues to protest not the murder of 7000 people but the 228 people who saved their own lives.


34 posted on 06/10/2012 6:18:26 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
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To: marktwain

There’s nothing in this article to suggest that any of the following have increased: shootings, killings, deaths, murders, crime.

It may be that under the new law, government officials are labeling the same old incidents as self defense.


35 posted on 06/10/2012 6:26:01 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Hold My Beer and Watch This!)
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To: Beelzebubba

The left hates these laws because they know that a person who will stand up and defend themselves from a criminal will also stand up and defend themselves from a government bent on controlling them.


36 posted on 06/10/2012 6:32:51 AM PDT by CarmichaelPatriot
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To: Red in Blue PA
Approximately 52.2% of all homicides are committed by 1.2% of the population.

This is a National Epidemic, yet where is the media on this?

The media is sitting on their butts waiting for the next press release from Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton or Anti-Gun groups who use the homicides as fundraisers.

Follow the Money Trail.

37 posted on 06/10/2012 6:34:10 AM PDT by TYVets (Pure-Gas.org ..... ethanol free gasoline by state and city)
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To: marktwain

Kind of a dumb article. Most of the examples it gives of SYG are no such thing. They constituted self-defense under the law before passage of SYG. Just like GZ’s case, in which his claim of self-defense has no relevance to SYG. His claim is either justified under the earlier law, or it’s not justified at all.

That said, I think SYG is somewhat prone to abuse if not carefully applied. In particular, when two guys get into a mutual fight and one of them succeeds in killing the other, it should not be consider justifiable homicide. This makes the justified nature of the act dependent solely on who is the more efficient killer.

IMO if the result of a given altercation would be ruled justifiable regardless of which party survives, there’s something inherently wrong either with the law or with its application. This would, for example, seem to allow dueling with the survivor claiming justifiable homicide. IMO in dueling and mutual fights of similar type both parties are guilty of attempted murder (although it’s difficult to prosecute the deceased) and the survivor is guilty of murder, though degree is open to debate depending on the particulars.

With all the talk about increased numbers of justifiable homicide rulings since SYG being passed, it would be interesting to have someone do research on the supposed 300 or so cases to see how many are really questionable, rather than the assumption commonly presented in the mEdia that 2/3 are.


38 posted on 06/10/2012 6:34:59 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: marktwain

People are doing the jobs cops can’t do. So long as the work is getting done, it’s a good thing.


39 posted on 06/10/2012 6:36:22 AM PDT by pallis
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To: CarmichaelPatriot

The left hates these laws because they know that a person who will stand up and defend themselves from a criminal will also stand up and defend themselves from a government bent on controlling them.

Bears repeating writ large!!

40 posted on 06/10/2012 6:55:45 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: marktwain
sorry article too long to read, did it have a chart like this?
41 posted on 06/10/2012 6:58:18 AM PDT by jjw
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To: marktwain

There is some BS in the article. For instance, it cites CHL holders with “extensive criminal records”. WTF?

I have been informed and entertained by these two books:

http://homicidalhumor.com/

The books are HILARIOUS and will teach you how real cops think and act. They are some of the funniest books that I ever read.

One of the most interesting bits in the first book is that if you defend yourself in Dallas, the DA will try to put you away. In Houston, no problemo.

The author cautions you to NEVER SIGN A STATEMENT PREPARED BY THE POLICE. If you are forced to defend yourself, GET AN ATTORNEY FIRST BEFORE MAKING A STATEMENT.


42 posted on 06/10/2012 7:03:01 AM PDT by darth
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To: Sacajaweau
There was absolutely no need for the law. Self defense and/or protecting your home is sufficient.

No, there's a very good reason for the law that's never mentioned by MSM reports. SYG at least the Florida version, confers immunity from civil liability for justifiable use of deadly force.

That's a major club in the hands of the anti-gun crowd. Even if you were 100% justified in using deadly force to defend yourself, they got to destroy you, financially, for daring to do so.

Further, the Florida supreme court has held that using a firearm to defend your home is a voluntary act, therefore your legal expenses were not covered by homeowners insurance, as in other states.

So both anti-gunners and ambulance chasers, no strangers to public relations campaigns, both despise SYG, because it took away the blade they used to bleed you dry for defending yourself.

43 posted on 06/10/2012 7:08:54 AM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: SampleMan

And BRAVO to that !!


44 posted on 06/10/2012 7:23:04 AM PDT by Delta 21 (Oh Crap !! Did I say that out loud ??!??)
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To: Delta 21

Lees criminals in the jails and more in the grave. No downside to that.


45 posted on 06/10/2012 7:27:01 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Mr. K

If Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night he would have been the victim of an unsolved murder.


46 posted on 06/10/2012 7:33:13 AM PDT by Procyon (Decentralize, degovernmentalize, deregulate, demonopolize, decredentialize, disentitle.)
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To: Mr. K

If Zimmerman didn’t have a gun that night he would have been the victim of an unsolved murder.


47 posted on 06/10/2012 7:33:13 AM PDT by Procyon (Decentralize, degovernmentalize, deregulate, demonopolize, decredentialize, disentitle.)
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To: marktwain
The article does not mention a key fact: after the Stand Your Ground law was passed, Florida's rate of violent crime declined dramatically.

Official statistics from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement show that from the years 2004 to 2007, the rate of violent crime in Florida was steady at about 705 such crimes per 100,00 people per year. That rate then declined every year after the Stand Your Ground went into effect in late 2007, to a rate of 519.3 violent crimes per hundred thousand people in 2011, the most recent year for which such statistics are available.

Of course, national trends also showed a decline in violent crime in the same period -- but Florida experienced a sharper decline. The most recent FBI statistics show that from 2007 to 2009, the rate of violent crime nationally declined from 472 to 429.4 such crimes per hundred thousand people -- a drop of just under 10 per cent.

In comparison, in the same period, Florida's rate of violent crime for the same period declined from 705.5 to 604.9 per one hundred thousand people -- a drop of 14.25 per cent. After the Stand Your Ground law was enacted, Florida's previously stable rate of violent crime thus not only declined, but did so about 30 per cent more than the national rate declined.

Even as we look to crime rates for statistical comparisons, we should not lose sight that the decline in violent crime in Florida that we may fairly attribute in part to the Stand Your Ground law has had a wide benefit for the public: fewer victims of violent crime.

Overall, when raw crime numbers are totaled up, after the Stand Your Ground went into effect, Florida's citizens experienced about 87,500 fewer violent crimes from 2008 to 2011. Even if seventy per cent of that effect may be seen as a reflection of national trends, it still makes Stand Your Ground a remarkably successful anti-crime law, preventing over twenty five thousand violent crimes.

The cost? A few dozen more justifiable homicides, mostly of aggressive career criminals confronted by armed crime victims. Between innocent crime victims and criminals killed during commission of a crime, my sympathies are with the innocent victims.

The raw data that I relied on for this analysis can be viewed at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and FBI websites.

48 posted on 06/10/2012 7:33:29 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Red in Blue PA
~~~~ snip~~~~ Approximately 52.2% of all homicides are committed by 1.2% of the population.
This is a National Epidemic


You are hereby awarded this 1st Place Trophy for using Mathematical Logic in breaking down the real and factual data on the Crime Epidemic that we the people deal with daily.

Yet knowing the same data pansy ass politicians tremble at the thought of even whispering them in their sleep -- all because it will cost them a few lousy votes from the relatives of these dregs of society.

Congratulations on your award :-)

49 posted on 06/10/2012 7:49:16 AM PDT by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
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To: gzzimlich

Yea, I read that about Switzerland - same thing - if you have guns (which are kind of required there), they have to be unreachable for personable defence - and inspectable at will.

We’re still on the offense here regarding gun control - we may hear lip service about tightening the laws...but even President Obama signed a bill that now allows legal concealed-carry owners to bring their guns into national parks (provided that the state is ok with concealed-carry). Before that, it was “no guns in parks”.

I just hope we stay on the offensive - the liberals pray every day for another mass murder of kids, so that they can get some footing on the issue - and they just haven’t been having any luck, so far.


50 posted on 06/10/2012 8:01:39 AM PDT by BobL
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