When Are We Going to Grow Up? The Juvenilization of American Christianity

Christianity Today ^ | June 2012 | Thomas E. Bergler

[Pining_4_TX]

I love it! How very true.

[muawiyah]

Halal is not the worst thing ~ more like carrots provided in the school lunch on account of a government edict. The point in not eating food sacrificed to idols isn't that anything happens to the food, it's that the barbarians, or government agents, might get the idea that you agree with them. Tossing it in the trash when under compulsion to eat according to the rules is the least you can do and will keep you free.

What happens in Moslem dominated countries with halal is very simple ~ when everybody wants only halal you have no other choices. Don't prove to the barbarians that you are stiff necked by starving to death.

Now that's not such a strange admonition when you realize that numerous Jains have actually starved to death in modern Western states by attempting to adhere to their own dietary rules.

Around here we have a number of kebab places. Never seen charshu pork in one of them, but I do know that all of their meat is halal ('cause they are all members of Moslem sects that do head chopping so it better be halal). Still, why would I eat at a kebab place? Well, for the kebab. They are all pretty decent spots to eat. I doubt the Moslems are misled about my concerns for their ceremonies.

I sometimes eat at kosher restaurants, and we even had a Chinese Kosher restaurant here throughout the Clinton Regime (owned by Charlie Trie). Thai restaurants go one further ~ I don't know particularly what ceremonies they go through preparing for their day's work, but they decide how your food will be spiced and salted ~ none of the authentic places put out any condiments. You get what you are served and that's that.

Back in the days of the Disciples they lived cheek to jowl with Romans and Greeks who did actual sacrifice to idols ~ rather like modern Hindus do actual sacrifice to idols ~ usually a banana slice burned over a small alcohol flame.

I don't eat the banana slice, but I do know there are those who do, and with whipped cream if available. But the one thing that doesn't happen in this country is the big sacrifice that you have to attend on a regular basis or you get your head chopped off.

I do believe the Apostles had a concern with that ~ and not eating the sacrifice was the least of the problems involving Classical idol worship.

[homegroan]

I miss the holy house of God where I came to respectfully be with Him. I cannot tolerate the churches of today.

So, I pray on my own. I go to a Eucharistic Adoration Chapel where I can be in His presence. I do not want God to just listen to me, I want to listen to Him and this is the only way I can do that.

I have trouble doing that with all the hoopla going on in church today.

[Isabel2010]

This may be too simple a remark~but, playing bongo's at a Catholic mass was about as disappointing to me as hearing young kids address adults by their first names as opposed to Mr. or Mrs.
The respect and reverance is missing~ IMO

[100American]

Jesus was present with the Disciples at the last supper

Breaking bread as a symbol for his body and wine as his blood. I guess what you are saying is that folks drinking coffee in church are not in a “reverential” state by doing so

Question 1: Did God make you judge and jury about what is and is not “reverential?

Question 2: You are of course familiar with the loaves and the fishes used to feed the multitude as Jesus spoke and was among them, must seem blasphemous to you

My point is God is about love and not rituals. If I am alone on a desert Island and I talk to God am I damned because there are not “2” there as a previous poster implied?

I say you think what you want, there are 2 there

Me and God, actually 3 if you count the Holy Spirit who was given to us by God as our companion

So you believe and feel what you want and others can do so as well, if you think God is going to pull you off to the side when you get to heaven and say “nice move on that coffee call” and high five you then go for it

I think he is just a little bit bigger and wiser than that

And just for the record yes I am an ordained minister, not one who marches around spouting laws but love as Christ instructed us

God Bless

PS - Note that Jesus never mentions buildings as the Church, he means the community of all followers with our without a building

[fr_freak]

The Seinfeld or Friends effect on TV. Grown men shown hanging out and acting like they are 18 years old. Never maturing or marrying.

Times have changed. Drastically. A lot of old timers who are unable to see some of the fundamental cultural changes that have occurred since the 60s see the lack of marriage as a problem resulting from male immaturity, but I would say that the decline in marriage is as much, if not more, due to a lack of maturity and morality among women. Simply put, women have become largely unfit for marriage. They prefer, instead, to spend their 20s partying and sleeping around, only desiring marriage and commitment in their 30s once the biological clock kicks in, and by then, what sane man would want a woman who has had 10, 20, or more sexual partners (with all of the incumbent risks) who has been trained by feminism to think that she is a princess who deserves everything, and for whom the government would gladly punish or enslave the man should she decide she doesn't want to be married anymore because she's not "in love" any longer? Quite frankly, until we get this broken culture sorted out, the wise and mature thing for any man to do is to remain single, and prepare for battle.

[muawiyah]

There's always been tension of a sort between those who met together some where and those who indulged in hermit-like lives.

Currently the hermits are kept well to the back, but they're still there. The internet has come along just in time to preserve that form of reverential life.

[CatherineofAragon]

Looks like I hit a nerve. You must be from one of the coffee-selling churches.

[elkfersupper]

I am not a religious person, but I find religion as entertainment offensive.

[CatherineofAragon]

?

[muawiyah]

Back in the early centuries it was fairly common for religious teachers or just ordinary individuals who were deep into meditation to go off by themselves into the desert where they wouldn't be bothered with the things that go on in church.

Sometimes peaceful life in the centers of civilization was impossible and you'd have whole communities of HERMITS pop up out in the country.

The form of worship typical of the hermits is different than what most Christian bodies do today although you can find individuals still doing it.

The internet allows you to maintain contact with the outside on your own terms while allowing you the isolation to engage in meditative worship away from all those people.

Is that clearer?

[BenLurkin]

Churches with rock bands and preachers in Hawaiian shirts annoy me.

I guess I'm small minded.

[faucetman]

“Note that Jesus never mentions buildings as the Church, he means the community of all followers with our without a building”

AMEN, Bro!

[theBuckwheat]

Christians need to consider the corrosive effects of the idea that we all can (and must) live at each other’s expense. They should wake up to how socialism must and does directly violate two of the Ten Commandments, those that prohibit coveting and theft.

God tells us in many places and in many ways that when we reject His values, he will reject us. Allowing creeping socialism is one big of the bigger causes of people not attaining very much spiritual growth in this era.

[kearnyirish2]

“A lot of old timers who are unable to see some of the fundamental cultural changes that have occurred since the 60s see the lack of marriage as a problem resulting from male immaturity, but I would say that the decline in marriage is as much, if not more, due to a lack of maturity and morality among women.”

I lay the blame on both sides; marriage is a losing proposition legally for men (who risk far more than women), and many women don’t want children (or at least more then one). I’ve quoted here before from a T-shirt I’ve seen: “Why get married? Just find a nasty women and buy her a house.”

[faucetman]

“When two are more are gathered together, He IS there——”

Does a different translation say “When two are more are gathered together IN A BUILDING, He IS there——”

I missed that one. You are transferring part of your worship to a BUILDING, (an idol). We don't allow food or drink in our sanctuary, because we want to keep it nice and clean. It isn't because we think God would be offended. How would you know that God wouldn't like lattes?

The meaning behind that verse is that it doesn't matter where you are, if you gather together in His name He'll be there with you. No building required.

[Carpe Cerevisi]

Contemporary church song (parody):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A

[SaraJohnson]

If Christians used modern arts to push the Biblical doctrines of Christianity to young people, who could complain? But the young are in charge of the modern arts and they are, for the most part, lacking in wisdom - immoral.

Christian churches, in the majority, have become preachers of death and sin. They do not exercise the intellegence God gave them to explain the Bible’s unchangable laws of nature (Creation) in terms young people can understand. Stupid or evil?

[sportutegrl]

My bible says to sing a NEW song unto the Lord.

[Mad Dawg]

What I’m about to say has nothing to do with denomination or anything like that.

It’s like this: As a Catholic and as an Episcopalian,I have sometimes been involved with training “lay readers.” That is members of the congregation who want to read from Scripture during the services.

One of the problems is people who want to “put meaning into the reading.” I get what they’re saying. Some flat, dull, boring readings are an insult to the congregation and to the Bible.

But you don’t need to put meaning into it. It has all the meaning you could ever imagine and more. It is, in fact, a kind of blasphemy to think that Scripture needs readers to put meaning into it.

I ended saying, “Read as one who listens would read.” Of course they did not understand me.

And similarly with some clergy. The Gospel, all by itself, is powerful enough to reshape the universe. If you are a member of a “sacramental” and “liturgical” church, that only makes sense if you believe that the sacraments and the liturgy are of transcendental value and meaning. Otherwise it’s just theatre.

But these bozos think they need to put meaning into worship. Nope. That’s God’s job, and He’s REAL good at it.

I have nothing against electric guitars and drums — nothing theological anyway. I do think repetitious and meretricious hymnody is bad, because it is not our best, and we should give God our best. But that’s a minor issue.

But as long a our clergy and “worship directors” think that the Word of God and (where applicable) the liturgy and sacraments cannot stand on their own but need our vain stage tricks to hold them up, that long we will have banal worship which is more about the “performers” than about God and his Love.