Florida Bishop Leads Opposition to Obamacare Mandate

However, compared to the moral authority Bishop Dewane exercised when he wrote, “This (HHS) mandate is so offensive, and so coercive, that it resembles similar actions that totalitarian regimes have used in the past,” the lawsuits pale in influence.

ping

Big Whoop! They support the rest of the bill and illegal immigrants as well.

I can overlook their take on illegals. They have biblical citations that would indicate leniency toward aliens were they to read them in that manner.

They don’t support “the rest of the bill”. They disapprove of the abortion provisions, of course, and also of anything that smacks of euthanasia (death panels).

I would imagine they’d not support any gay provisions of the bill contrary to their doctrine.

My guess is they know better than to approve of mandates.

I can overlook their take on illegals. They have biblical citations that would indicate leniency toward aliens were they to read them in that manner.

I think it is a huge, ongoing mistake for conservatives to concede that any element of collectivism is Biblical.

It is not.

Collectivism in any form makes man a servant to man (in the form of the state) and this is against God's will as stated in the Bible.

No king but Jesus. That is what my Bible tells me.

The Catechism, foremost, speaks to the responsibility of immigrants to follow the host country's laws, respect its culture and tradition, and contribute positively to its life, both materially and spiritually.

The host nation is to treat immigrants humanely, while enforcing its laws, not allowing things like torture, withholding of the necessities of life, breaking up families, and being more sensitive to the exigencies of refugees fleeing war, oppression, or natural disasters.

Those Catholic officials who endorse things like the Dream Act, or a general amnesty, are offering their personal political opinion.

Where did collectivism come from in this discussion?

Refer to Pope Leo's Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, Dec 1878.

The bishops WANTED this bill - badly. They want single payer/govt. health care. To deny that is absurd.

Note excerpt from their own site dated May 21, 2010. (emphais mine)

Setting the Record Straight

As the Chairmen of the three committees most directly involved in the efforts of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops on health care reform, we are writing to set the record straight on some important issues raised during and after final consideration of the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” this spring.

From our first statement to Congress a year ago (http://usccb.org/sdwp/national/2009-05-usccb-health-care-statement.pdf) to Cardinal George’s March 23rd, 2010 statement about the enactment of a “profoundly flawed” final bill, the position of our Conference has been unified and consistent. Reflecting decades of advocacy on behalf of universal access to health care, the bishops were clear in calling for health care reform as a moral imperative and urgent national priority. We called for reform that would make health coverage affordable for the poor and needy, moving our society substantially toward the goal of universal coverage. We were equally clear in stating that this must be done in accord with the dignity of each and every human person, showing full respect for the life, health and conscience of all.

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Read the links if you want to set the record straight. ALL — yes, ALL the Catholic Bishops came out AGAINST the HHS mandate.

The facts are in those links. All FR links, BTW!

They wanted a bill, not this bill.

There are plenty of ways to reform the health care system in this country that aren't as inimical to freedom (not to mention economically stupid) as Commiecare.

And, no, "universal access to healthcare" is not the same thing as "single payer government health care". Read up on the concept of "subsidiarity" in Catholic social doctrine, please.

“I can overlook their take on illegals. They have biblical citations that would indicate leniency toward aliens. . .”

Ah, not exactly. First, as much as people wish they would do so, priests and bishops do not interpret the Bible.

Two, the Catechism as well as the current pope’s encyclical on charity (Caritas in Veritate (English: Charity in Truth) both state, in common terms, that it’s really stupid for the government of any country to allow foreigners to come in and drain its resources especially if charity is the goal, since the end game of such an endeavor will be no more resources for charity.

What you are talking about is bishops going off the reservation- interpreting the Bible- which they are allowed to do, just not within or in the name of Catholicism- and that is what is getting them into this mess in the first place.

Where did collectivism come from in this discussion?

Collectivism comes into the discussion as soon as those discussing decide to speak the truth.

Public schools, public hospitals, food stamps, etc. are collectivist institutions. The government uses force to take money from those who work in the private sector and then spends this money providing these services to those of the government's choosing.

If the government decides to take money from hard-working, law-abiding Americans and then use that money to provide the necessities of life to those who merely managed to sneak across the border in violation of the law, then the taxpaying Americans have been forcibly put in service to those law-breaking foreigner by the ones who happen to control the levers of political power at the moment.

This is collectivism plain and simple, and it is ungodly.

LOL, OK.

He’s right. The poor already had universal access to health care through a variety of government programs. Catholic schools, hospitals and charities would thrive on the money wasted in the public sector on the same things.

The Catholic Church has been utterly reticent to act with vigor against “Catholics” in the political arena who contradict Catholic Doctrine. It’s part of how we got to where we are today.

I know they came out against the mandate. That's the only thing they didn't like about the bill. They supported everything else but the mandate. Also, note in the link I provided they want "immigrants" covered, too. The bishops are nitpicking the bill.

From the above link: (Parenthetical bold comments are mine)

Ultimately the House of Representatives approved a health care reform bill that the bishops welcomed for substantially meeting most of the principles and goods we were espousing.

(They approved of the bill from the House. They WANTED it.)

We hoped to address final concerns as the legislation moved forward. However, the Senate rejected the House legislation, including the key elements that we supported, and produced a bill that abandoned the very principles that we espoused: no expansion of abortion, protections for freedom of conscience and the rights of immigrants. With these foundational principles rejected, it was then announced that no further substantive changes were possible. From that moment on, the bishops were clear and consistent in saying that this “take it or leave it” offer was morally unacceptable and politically divisive. Whatever might be the positive aspects of the Senate bill, we had no choice but to oppose the Senate version as a matter of principle. As bishops we must faithfully proclaim the truth. We must defend the rights of the unborn and the weakest and most vulnerable among us. We must oppose the advance of elective abortion in our society, especially the use of government authority and funding to advance it, and we must speak out in favor of the rights of freedom of conscience for persons and institutions. We urged Congress to vote against this version of the bill, with the hope that together we could find a way to address our legitimate concerns in a bill which would thus have broader appeal and greater support. Unfortunately, the political will to do so did not emerge.

The final result is legislation that expands health care coverage, implements many needed reforms, and provides welcome support for pregnant and parenting women and adoptive families.

(Again. They approved of the House bill - they supported it)

Unfortunately it also perpetuates grave injustices toward immigrant families

("grave injustices toward 'immigrants' meaning illegals)
and makes new and disturbing changes in federal policy on abortion and conscience rights. We have documented the legislation’s serious flaws in several analyses available on the bishops’ web site, www.usccb.org/healthcare.

Say what you want. The bishops have made it clear they want govt run healthcare except for abortions.

Thank you for your thoughtful and substantive response.

You have truly distinguished yourself from the legions of arrogant but unknowing fools who post snide, useless garbage on the internet.

You may be proud of yourself for what you’ve accomplished here today.

Being a student of the bible, I have studied the forbearance toward aliens passages in the bible, and especially in light of the fact that Christians are “strangers (aliens) and pilgrims in this land” who are seeking a better city. I would hope for that forebearance toward the Churches that the Bible recommends toward aliens in the Old Testament. Jesus, himself, is the offspring of those who were aliens and that whether one discusses the march toward the promised land under Moses or one deals with the life story of Ruth. In many lands today, Christians are severely persecuted and their only security is found in fleeing those regimes.

Therefore, it is instructive to contemplate the biblical passages on aliens in foreign lands. It is not an easy subject and the dividing line between forebearance and strict adherence to law is a matter that CAN be up in the air for some folks. For the bishops to come down in a more lenient place is not necessarily a political decision on their part. It might well be a theological concern on their part that is heartfelt and sincere. To the extent that sincerity drives their position, I’m willing to be lenient toward the bishops.

Sincerity, of course, doesn’t make them biblically right. As you or someone else has pointed out on this thread, there is a point at which continual, knowing violation of law ceases to be anything more than willful, harmful, intentional illegality.

I do believe in kindness toward illegal immigrants who are not violent or destructive, who are simply seeking a better life. As Hannity always points out, who can blame them for seeing that this is a better country.

So, whatever plan we decide on for dealing with aliens, I do hope that it is considerate in terms of treatment. As a former supporter of both Perry and Gingrich, I do believe there are ways of dealing with people that are not mean-spirited or insensitive.

Is allowing someone to live off our social services “collectivism”? At one level, social services themselves are collectivist, so there is the necessity to admit that this nation already has a collectivist streak. I think for ill, because I believe it destroys individual initiative and weakens the nation.

So, to the extent that illegals consume resources without putting anything in to help pay their way, then they are unjustly feeding off of our collectivist streak. But, I’d say the same about a welfare deadbeat, too.

I’ve long wondered if it isn’t a far better policy to limit the vote to those who pay property tax either as a direct property owner or as a portion of a rental payment.

Say what you want. The bishops have made it clear they want govt run healthcare except for abortions.

There are many who espouse collectivism in the name of Christianity (collectivism, as distinct from charity). The Catholic Church is full of such leftists, as are most other Christian denominations in the US.

This should be no surprise to those who understand what the Bible tells us about evil.

Evil appeals to man's conceit (that he can collectively plan a better society than would obtain organically from each person planning their own life), and perverts the Biblical injunction toward charity (conflating it with collectivism), and sets the undefinable and unbiblical goal of "social justice" above the most essential goal of man on this earth, which is liberty.

Once man is enchained by man in the service of "social justice" the reign of evil over him is unfettered and ever expanding.