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North Dakota Considers Eliminating Property Tax
NYTimes ^

Posted on 06/12/2012 12:08:38 AM PDT by quesney

BISMARCK, N.D. — Since Californians shrank their property taxes more than three decades ago by passing Proposition 13, people around the nation have echoed their dismay over such levies, putting forth plans to even them, simplify them, cap them, slash them. In an election here on Tuesday, residents of North Dakota will consider a measure that reaches far beyond any of that — one that abolishes the property tax entirely.

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Jim Wilson/The New York Times A group of Edgeley residents, including Nicole Gibson, who held a “Vote No on Measure 2” sign, gathered after the debate. “I would like to be able to know that my home, no matter what happens to my income or my life, is not going to be taken away from me because I can’t pay a tax,” said Susan Beehler, one in a group of North Dakotans who have pressed for an amendment to the state’s Constitution to end the property tax. They argue that the tax is unpredictable, inconsistent, counter to the concept of property ownership and needless in a state that, thanks in part to wildly successful oil drilling, finds itself in the rare circumstance of carrying budget reserves.

“When,” Ms. Beehler asked, “did we come to believe that government should get rich and we should get poor?”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: freedom; liberty; tax; taxes
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To: quesney
What's in question at this point is, in my opinion, can enough non-property owners (the majority of voters not only in North Dakota but across America) be convinced that they're not being cheated out of a share of the state's windfall. Can they be convinced to support the removal of the property taxes?
I'm a property owner in North Dakota so I am all for getting rid of the property tax but unlike Alaska, which has waived all state income taxes and sends every 'resident (Not just property owners)' a check every year this particular tax in North Dakota will only benefit property owners.
51 posted on 06/12/2012 6:04:44 AM PDT by Whats-wrong-with-the-truth (Romney (aka - obomney)... Just put the (D) behind your name and be done with it.)
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To: AlmaKing

For the elderly on a fixed income who have trouble paying property tax, after paying a lifetime of taxes, the property tax should accrue as a lien on the property.


52 posted on 06/12/2012 6:11:32 AM PDT by doug from upland (Just in case, it has been reserved: www.TheBitchIsBack2012.com)
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To: AAABEST

Also, my daughter will never, EVER set even one single toe in a public school. Hence, why should I have pay for her education, then pay again for some stranger’s kids to go to a school where they’re likely not to learn very much - except how to hate everything I stand for?

**

If we just charged parents a bit for the public school of their choice, and did away with property taxes, we’d grow our economy AND improve our education system by leaps and bounds.

Nothing also gets to me more also than the uber rich parents pulling up to the “free” public school in their Lexus, or what have you.

Everyone should pay at least SOMETHING for their child’s education. This idea of a “free” education is ridiculous. Those who use it should pay - and no one else.


53 posted on 06/12/2012 6:41:23 AM PDT by LibsRJerks
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To: quesney
They argue that the tax is unpredictable, inconsistent, counter to the concept of property ownership.

Yes it's inconsistent with property ownership (except for paying for the road that leads to your property).

54 posted on 06/12/2012 6:41:52 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: quesney

If the government can take your property away if you don’t pay taxes on it, is it really private property after all? I don’t believe it is. In fact, I know it isn’t.


55 posted on 06/12/2012 6:53:05 AM PDT by Crucial (Tolerance at the expense of equal treatment is the path to tyranny.)
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To: kearnyirish2

“The reason Newark, Camden, and Paterson NJ all laid off so many employees is BECAUSE we have property taxes; their residents hadn’t been paying for their services for decades, with “state aid” (our money) picking up the tab.”

There’s some sort of formula here in NJ that counties use to divert a portion of local property taxes from so called “affluent” towns to so called “poorer” ones. Our mayor once claimed that as the reason why property taxes were kept so high in my town, to make up the difference. Of course that doesn’t mean the poor towns spend their extra money wisely.


56 posted on 06/12/2012 7:08:10 AM PDT by ScottfromNJ
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To: AAABEST; Impy; Clintonfatigued; unkus
POST OF THE WEEK!!!

We NEVER own our homes here and it sucks!!! And you can't get more bull's eye than your assessment of public schools!

57 posted on 06/12/2012 7:23:57 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (The Glove don't fit.)
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To: kearnyirish2; waterhill; ixtl
For people nostalgic about the Founding Fathers, I don’t know if many FReepers are aware that voting was originally limited to people paying property taxes. There was a reason for that: they had a stake in the future of an area that wasn’t shared by all of the residents.

I thought it was just people who owned land. Did they actually pay property taxes back then?

Anyway, if this passes, I will seriously consider moving (((ping)))!

Property taxes are the antithesis of a free society.

58 posted on 06/12/2012 7:26:08 AM PDT by Envisioning (Call me a racist........, one more time..........)
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To: RoadGumby

50 ???,, I thought there were 57!


59 posted on 06/12/2012 7:28:50 AM PDT by late bloomer ( Neglegere homo pone aulaeum. semi-retired warlord)
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To: RoadGumby

None of us enjoy paying high property taxes. You are lucky to live in a low tax state. I enjoy living near my family more than I hate paying taxes so unless my relatives leave the state I and many like us are stuck where we are. NJ does have its compensations despite the terribly high cost.


60 posted on 06/12/2012 7:35:30 AM PDT by New Jersey Realist (America: home of the free because of the brave)
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To: quesney
I would like to be able to know that my home, no matter what happens to my income or my life, is not going to be taken away from me because I can’t pay a tax

ABSOLUTELY. I own my home free and clear...wait no I don't, I have to pay taxes on it every year so I'm actually living with really cheap rent.

61 posted on 06/12/2012 7:52:37 AM PDT by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: redfreedom

I agree with you redfreedom.

I grew up smack in the middle of the Bakken Zone.

The scoundrels in Bismarck (and that includes many of the Republicans, right up to and including the governor) are so awash in money that they are beginning to think and act like sheiks: buy, spend, build, promise, dream, party hearty.

If voters keep the property tax (which they probably will, mostly for understandable reasons), then the state and city leaders ought to start windfalling MORE of the oil dollars and devote the rest to necessary and sensible improvements (which they almost certainly won’t).

Bodes ill for the day when the boom goes bust, which they always—ALWAYS—do.


62 posted on 06/12/2012 8:06:52 AM PDT by Fightin Whitey
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To: AAABEST
A family can never truly own their own home.

Exactly. You can never own real property -- you can only lease it from the government.

63 posted on 06/12/2012 8:16:03 AM PDT by Fast Moving Angel (A moral wrong is not a civil right: No religious sanction of an irreligious act.)
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To: Envisioning

It varied from state to state. In some places, it was simply having property or meeting a set amount of proclamation money. In others, it was paying state taxes of some kind. There were often stricter requirements for voting for the upper house of each state’s legislature.

In any event, by 1790, property requirements were non-enforced in the vast majority of states, at least for the lower house of the legislature.


64 posted on 06/12/2012 9:39:27 AM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: conservativesister

The prairie shale-oil operations were absolutely booming back during the oil-embargo. Within 3 years, the entire industry virtually disappeared. The situation for North Dakota could easily change overnight.


65 posted on 06/12/2012 9:39:36 AM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: AAABEST
Also, my daughter will never, EVER set even one single toe in a public school. Hence, why should I have pay for her education, then pay again for some stranger's kids to go to a school where they're likely not to learn very much - except how to hate everything I stand for?

Replace the property tax with user fees for government functions. Nobody should have to pay for what they don't use.

66 posted on 06/12/2012 9:51:14 AM PDT by Cowman (How can the IRS seize property without a warrant if the 4th amendment still stands?)
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To: JerseyanExile

based on what I’ve read:
“Apr 29, 2012 – But many aren’t prepared for the hardships of life on the plains: the cold, the wind, the monotony. ... Within two weeks of arriving in North Dakota last July, Kevin ... Industry officials predict that the oil boom will last at least 10 to 15 years, ... “

Hopefully the money will continue to roll into N. Dakota for a while.


67 posted on 06/12/2012 10:15:38 AM PDT by conservativesister
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To: AAABEST

” I have a good friend who owns his home outright. It’s a small mother/daughter split-level type in a CRAPPY neighborhood - Hempstead, NY.

Though it’s paid off, he still gets to pay nearly $1,500 per month in property tax “

That is INSANE!!


68 posted on 06/12/2012 10:28:02 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: wolfman23601

“Don’t you have tax abatement programs for situations like the widow?”

Oh, yeah. A whopping 10%.

With a discount like that, her payments would be reduced from $500 per month all the way down to only $450 per month. She should be eternally grateful to her magnanimous masters for such grace.
/s


69 posted on 06/12/2012 10:46:39 AM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: Puckster

North Dakota already is a “right to work” state, and has been for decades.

The oil money has already been dedicated for other purposes, and is desperately needed for infrastructure, housing for all the new hires.

The measure only requires the state legislature to pay money back to the political subdivisions for “required” expenses. Certain local costs, such as snow removal, etc., are NOT considered “required” legal costs that the state has to fund.

And, contrary to other parts of the country, public sector wages and pensions in ND are at or below private sector wages. The oil boom has made pay, especially in western ND, skyrocket.


70 posted on 06/12/2012 11:20:27 AM PDT by alwaysconservative (If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.)
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To: kearnyirish2

Careful Kearny, you’ve already crossed the line of “Willing to trade liberty for security” and are running headlong into, “I have a right to other people’s money, for the widows, of course,” territory.

May your chains lay lightly upon you, and may you speedily realize your error.

Property taxes are demonic, ungodly methods of oppression, whether you like them or not. No Government service should occur that is not directly paid for by the person receiving the service. None. Postage at a post office, toll roads or gasoline taxes, etc. etc.


71 posted on 06/12/2012 11:26:44 AM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
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To: dinodino

HOORAY! A TRUE conservative (there are others, but your post blatantly gives you away, no apologies, and right to the point!) I replied before I saw your post. But you hit the nail right on the head.

People are so used to the idea of the nanny state that their brains have turned to mush. Gut EVERYTHING. Return to a user fee (duty, fee, excise) system. We can police ourselves, that’s why we have the 2nd amendment and the right of citizen’s arrest. Just because we (as a society) have been indoctrinated to worship at the feet of the all powerful state, doesn’t mean we’re meant to. The Constitution (including amendments) is mere PAGES long. The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves with the level of apathy our people have achieved and the amount of coddling people think they deserve.

Remove the worthless regulation and taxation, and the U.S. would boom, AGAIN. You can tell the ignorant “city-folk” because they’ve never witnessed reality. People just like animals can only be harvested/sheared so much. Shear a sheep in winter, it dies. Take too much honey from a bee, they die. Too much milk from a nursing animal, and the babies die. The goose has no more golden eggs, and you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.

We haven’t had an excess for decades, and have been running a huge deficit for a century. People MUST wean themselves off of other people’s money.


72 posted on 06/12/2012 11:39:23 AM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
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To: Whats-wrong-with-the-truth

I lived in an apartment for years. I was fortunate enough to see the itemization of my entire month’s rent, including property tax. If you rent from someone who has to up your rent to pay a property tax, then in a competitive market, you either receive the benefit of a smaller expense of maintaining a rental, or property ownership becomes more affordable. Oh yeah, depending on the tax structure, the cost of business overhead and thus business and thereby goods and services goes down. EVERYONE benefits when property taxes are removed.


73 posted on 06/12/2012 11:50:57 AM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
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To: 1010RD

“... if oil revenues falter?”

And if we take this country back in Nov., and start domestic oil production, North Dakota will not be as well of as it is today.


74 posted on 06/12/2012 11:51:00 AM PDT by George from New England (Ecaped CT in 2006, moved to north of Tampa)
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To: Recon Dad

“When I got a reevaluation and the value was lowered they raised the multiplier to make up of the county’s lost revenues.”

What do you do when you live in the part of a county that they won’t lower the assessments cause there are no sales? Yes part of Pasco has dropped 70%, but not the rural areas. Then they make up the difference with the multiplier and me and my neighbors pay double.


75 posted on 06/12/2012 11:53:55 AM PDT by George from New England (Ecaped CT in 2006, moved to north of Tampa)
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To: LibsRJerks

Ah, but if you’re going to indoctrinate a new generation of serfs into socialism, you must do it, using a socialist system.


76 posted on 06/12/2012 11:57:25 AM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
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To: JDW11235

EVERYONE benefits when property taxes are removed.


Property taxes for business are HIGH. I looked at business building and property taxes were 44% of rental income.


77 posted on 06/12/2012 11:58:19 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( (Lord, save me from some conservatives, they don't understand history any better than liberals.))
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To: PeterPrinciple

There is a fundamental indoctrinated thinking issue in people today, as they have been brainwashed into thinking “You need Government.” NO, we don’t. And if people want some Government, that’s fine, they should be willing to pay for it entirely out of their own pockets. I once was taught a lesson that talked about absolutes. The instructor said, “If you had an ice cream cone that had a big piece of [feces] on top, would you want it? No? What if you just scraped that off, or nibbled around the edges? Would that be ok?” That’s the problem we have, people kept nibbling around the edges until the chowed down on the mushy center. Now people say, well, I don’t want the whole feces cone, but make sure mine has sprinkles. Ridiculous!


78 posted on 06/12/2012 12:08:17 PM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
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To: kearnyirish2; All
Who is supposed to pay to maintain the road in front of the widows’ homes

Private roads would work as some do in Texas now. Private road, Private hospitals, private schools. Who says that the government should do all these (and thousands of other things they are trying to do)? Who , marxists that's who.The difference between socialism and capitalism is private ownership. The government owns your property with property taxes. The only taxes allowed should be sales taxes and tariffs on china products and tariffs on other imports. Property taxes are an abomination, slavery , and socialism/Marxism.

Government at all levels is too big and does( LOL tries to do ) too many things. Government should only do things that absolutely cannot be done by the private sector. Roads, charities, hospitals, Schools and many other things the governments do should be done by private businesses . Government leads to at best corruption and it doesn't work for 99% of the things it does.

Get rid of 99% of state , local and federal departments and agencies: the U.S.A then would be a million times better off. Who needs the EPA, TSA, dept of education, government schools, HHS, HUD, dept of energy etc. etc. and their local and state counterparts? No one that's who.

79 posted on 06/12/2012 12:29:15 PM PDT by rurgan (Sunset all laws at 4 years.China is destroying U.S. ability to manufacture,makes everything)
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To: kearnyirish2
I lived in a NJ city for eighteen years (Elizabeth), and from my experience, all that those high taxes go towards paying is the bloated salaries of the municipal politicians who vote themselves pay raises sometimes on an annual basis. And oh yeah, that ridiculous welfare system that turned formerly beautiful cities into hellhole slums, something that tearing down projects and replacing them with townhouses was not able to reverse. Never mind a transit operator whose reach is state-wide, and who went on a ridiculous spending spree under former governor Corzine, buying buses and trains (especially the latter) to replace vehicles that had only reached the halfway point of their service life (while reneging on service expansions at the same time).

It was the unconscionably-high property tax that was a primary impetus for people and businesses to move out of that state. Don’t buy the garbage out of the liberal politicians there. The People’s Republic of New Jersey is teetering on the edge.
80 posted on 06/12/2012 2:00:44 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: rurgan
Private roads would work as some do in Texas now. Private road, Private hospitals, private schools. Who says that the government should do all these (and thousands of other things they are trying to do)? Who , marxists that's who.The difference between socialism and capitalism is private ownership. The government owns your property with property taxes. The only taxes allowed should be sales taxes and tariffs on china products and tariffs on other imports. Property taxes are an abomination, slavery , and socialism/Marxism.

Private roads would work in some areas, but not all. Lightly-trafficked private roads would not work, as user fees (or whatever other funding model used) would not be enough to cover maintenance/repairs/etc.

81 posted on 06/12/2012 2:57:23 PM PDT by Conscience of a Conservative
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To: kearnyirish2
Who is supposed to pay to maintain the road in front of the widows’ homes?

Don't get me started. With the money they confiscate and waste, the streets could be paved in gold.

82 posted on 06/12/2012 3:49:35 PM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: quesney
"No tax should have the power to leave you homeless."

Nail. Head. The Fourth Amendment has no meaning otherwise.

83 posted on 06/12/2012 4:18:27 PM PDT by denydenydeny (Admiration of absolute government is proportionate to the contempt one has for others.-Tocqueville)
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To: Quickgun

I’m highly adaptable to hot and cold....having grown up in North Dakota and Minnesota...ya, you betcha.

North Dakota holds the 5 hottest temperture recorded in the US, 121 degs F, BTW.


84 posted on 06/12/2012 4:20:15 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: Envisioning

Ichabod Crane didn’t work for free; they called them “levies”, and they certainly collected them from property owners. It pre-dates the American Revolution.


85 posted on 06/12/2012 4:37:58 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: dinodino

I’m all for user fees; I like the toll increases here in NJ because I rarely use the toll roads, and I even like Governor Florio’s proposed “toilet paper tax” 20 years ago - it was the only waay we would get ANY revenue out of some parasites here in NJ.

Until they perfect a system for those fees, the most localized tax is the only way to ensure I’m not paying for someone else’s services in the next town or county.


86 posted on 06/12/2012 4:41:11 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: ScottfromNJ

You are probably referring to the county portion of your property tax bill; while taxes in my town have stabilized, the county and school portion keep climbing.


87 posted on 06/12/2012 4:43:03 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: alwaysconservative

Thanks for the update.


88 posted on 06/12/2012 4:43:38 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: AAABEST

Post of the year.


89 posted on 06/12/2012 4:55:45 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: JDW11235

Excuse me - I was the one who wanted the widow to pay her own bills; maybe you mis-read.

I think everyone should pay their way; rather than have it decided on a county level (where you may be one of a few hundred thousand) or at a state level (where you may be one of millions), I’d want it done on the smallest level possible so I don’t get someone else’s (widows included) bills.

Until every service can be charged to the user, local property taxes are the closest we can get to that.


90 posted on 06/12/2012 4:55:56 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: rurgan

I couldn’t agree with you more; less government is the best government. I’ve never advocated for paid police forces, public schools, etc.; we did fine before these evolved and became industries unto themselves.


91 posted on 06/12/2012 4:58:48 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: Olog-hai

I agree; see # 91. NJ is in terrible shape; that is why Christie was elected (we’ve shed a lot of cops, teachers, and firemen since that glorious day).

The property taxes are horrible, but you have more control over them than sending THE SAME MONEY TO TRENTON. North Dakota isn’t voting to stop paying their cops and teachers; they are simply looking at paying them in a different manner (in which a lot of people can see their taxes go to other parts of the state as “pork”).

I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. If NJ had a system like North Dakota is looking at, then Newark, Camden, and Paterson wouldn’t have been laying off cops (because they have more voters - not the same as taxpayers); the suburbs and rural areas would have lost those jobs instead (and still been paying for them).


92 posted on 06/12/2012 5:08:57 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: unixfox

“With the money they confiscate and waste, the streets could be paved in gold.”

Do you mean I should with the money they confiscate from me? Or can we expect that someone living in the home will?


93 posted on 06/12/2012 5:11:26 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: JDW11235

Thank you, and I completely agree with you. We need to roll back the U.S. Government to its role and relative size in about 1905.


94 posted on 06/12/2012 5:12:41 PM PDT by dinodino
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To: kearnyirish2

I see you are not understanding. You seem to think that there are only two possibilities: either have the crap taxed out of you on property taxes, or have the same amount sent to your State capitol, and in either case, the “services” rendered to you are invariant.

The third option, of course, is to switch all “services” to user fees so that they are paid for by those whom use them. This is what is done in Singapore, and is why that nation is consistently ranked as best for economic freedom.


95 posted on 06/12/2012 5:36:13 PM PDT by dinodino
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To: AAABEST

“Also, my daughter will never, EVER set even one single toe in a public school”

Even if she did, I doubt her education would be worth the $18,000 per year your family is apparently paying in property taxes. Good grief.


96 posted on 06/12/2012 5:57:19 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: quesney

3% Of the vote counted, 18% for the amendment, 82% against.


97 posted on 06/12/2012 6:21:29 PM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: kearnyirish2
I'd have to go against the tide here also. No property tax and we would be back to serfdom. The rich could buy all of the land and then never sell causing the rest of us to be renters and hired hands all our lives. There would be no incentive to make the most of the land.

What I really don't like is the fact that the rest of us are paying for it. This proves that taxes against energy companies are too high when states are sending checks to citizens for no reason and considering eliminating normal sources of revenue.

98 posted on 06/12/2012 6:40:10 PM PDT by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: kearnyirish2

“Until every service can be charged to the user, local property taxes are the closest we can get to that.”

No, a local sales tax is much closer. In fact stick it on a product corresponding DIRECTLY to the limited government service it relates too, and THAT’s the closet thing to a user fee.


99 posted on 06/12/2012 7:15:46 PM PDT by JDW11235 (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/ AND "The fat, spoiled, complacent kid is going on a diet." -Unkus)
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When the state can take your home for taxes, you don’t really own it. Too bad it looks like this amendment will fail.


100 posted on 06/12/2012 8:46:40 PM PDT by clintonh8r (Happy to be represented by Lt. Col. Allen West)
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