Posted on 06/22/2012 7:10:38 PM PDT by therightliveswithus
How you can say for 1600 years that there was nothing wrong with the "church" - that is, the institutional Roman Catholic Church, is to live in denial.
God reconciled Himself with man through the sacrifice of His son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This was done because of His love for us and desire that no man should perish. I'm not sure where you're coming from but if it's from the standpoint that only Catholics - through baptism, I presume - is the only legitimate claim to God's salvation, then in my humble opinion, you are wrong. Period. - Absolutely, totally, completely wrong.
As for me, I surrendered my heart, my life to the lordship of Jesus Christ, in fact it was on October 24, 1985. I confessed with my mouth that I was a sinner and that there was nothing good enough I could ever do to save myself; I acknowledged in all humility that my righteousness apart from Him was no better than filthy rags. I confessed my sin nature, I confessed that I deserved eternal death, but that Christ in HIS love, died in my place to pay the penalty for my sin. I asked God to have mercy on me, to forgive me, and to come into my heart to save me and give me a new life in Christ Jesus. And He did. From that day on, I became a new creature, a child of the King, in accordance with His promise, His word that says especially in Romans 10:9-13, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." .... (13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved."
Of course, there are countless numbers of other scripture that attest to God's mercy, goodness, forgiveness, grace, and rebirth. All I can say is that I know with all assurance that I am His, that no man can ever, not ever take me away from Him...that although I live an imperfect life, He is quick to forgive and to restore our sweet fellowship when I come to Him in humility, seek His face and His forgiveness, and He is such a righteous, loving, forgiving Father Abba, always ready and willing to reconcile ourselves to Him.
You are entitled to feel, believe as you choose, as am I. So be it. Nothing either of us says is going to effect a change of where our heads and hearts are in this walk of faith.
I said that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. You responded, “No.”
I sincerely don’t understand. Are you saying that I am not a disciple of Christ? Or are you saying that there are no longer disciples of Christ? Or are you saying that Jesus treats His disciples now differently from the way He treated them then? Is “disciple” a particular “office” according to your denomination?
It would be nice to think that convicts are human, with a social conscience, and willing to do what our secular humanist/mentally retarded justice system will not consider.
However. Why is Charles Manson still alive? How can someone sit on Death Row for 10, 15, 20 years for random murders and still be alive if there was such a thing as prison justice?
A message to civilians. Cons are only interested in not getting raped, or otherwise abused. They shank each other only to prove that they must not be trifled with, not because the care about justice on the Outside.
It's odd that, somehow, the Gay Rights peter puffing chicken hawks have been notably silent during this whole affair. Why aren't they protesting the arrest and convistion of a fellow Gay? It's only Love, after all...
His answer was spot on
You wrote:
“Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God”
He IS God, and the Son of God.
“—the Greek word of Christ is a religious title (if you hollered “Hey Christ!” Jesus would not have turned around)”
Actually He would have. Look at how many times He is asked if He is the Christ. He knew He was the Christ. He might have been asked if He was the Messiah, but that was just the term “Christ” in Hebrew.
“afforded him by the early Christian sects so Jesus may not be a religion but “Christ” certainly is.”
No. The Christ is a person, not a religion. A religion is a thing, not a person. Christ is the heart of the Christian religion, but He isn’t a religion.
“And perhaps you should research the many religions that preceded Christ about whether Christ was the reason for them.”
All religions exist because of the idea of the divine, God.
Christ is God. Christianity, a religion, exists solely because of Christ.
“Paterno knew and hid it.”
Agreed. The janitors knew.
That means everyone in power did.
You wrote:
“I said that I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. You responded, “No.””
Correct.
“I sincerely don’t understand.”
True enough.
“Are you saying that I am not a disciple of Christ?”
Yes, I am saying that you are NOT a disciple as the early disciples were. They were chosen by Christ. They were trained by Christ. They walked with Christ for three years and learned from Him directly while He was on earth. You have done none of those things nor will you ever do any of those things on this earth.
“Or are you saying that there are no longer disciples of Christ?”
Not in the sense that they appeared alongside Christ in His earthly life, no. And the way of making disciples after Christ’s ascension is that those who were sent by Christ made others disciples. If you are a Protestant, then you are not a disciple made by Christ nor another disciple after Christ’s ascension. Someone made a follower of Christ by a heretic, or a schismatic, or a Protestant, is not truly a disciple of Christ in the fullest sense. It cannot be any other way. When someone calls himself a disciple of Christ, but embraces a heresy, he cannot be a disciple in the fullest sense simply because he has a distorted view of the one faith taught by Christ.
“Or are you saying that Jesus treats His disciples now differently from the way He treated them then?”
Christ sent His Church to make disciples after His ascension. The Church still makes disciples. Only the Church has that duty or the moral right or the ability to make disciples in the fullest sense now. Christ acts through the Church when it comes to making disciples. This is why the Apostles had that name. It means they were “sent”. Those who were sent by Christ had the authority. Those not sent by Christ had no authority.
“Is “disciple” a particular “office” according to your denomination?”
According to scripture, clearly some of the disciples had an office - the Apostles. Also, the seventy of Luke 10 were selected by Christ. Certainly there mission is indication of an office even if only temporary.
In today’s society, a consumerist society that likes to tailor even Christianity to individual desires, people like to imagine they are disciples of Christ even if they were not sent. I don’t doubt that Christ is important to them, but Christ did not create Lone Ranger sort of followers of Himself. All men, if they want to be full disciples of Christ, are to share the same faith, the same baptism, the same Lord.
I’ve seen or heard no evidence of what you’re talking about. I can’t say it didn’t happen, but I bet it didn’t.
The RCC is not the church of the true faith anymore. It has twisted itself into another religion. Faith in Christ alone is what saves you, not the Church. The Body of Christ is what it is, the Body of Christ and what we call church, but it can’t save you. Christ alone can save you and then you are (for lack of better word) incorporated into the Body of Christ. Remember the thief on the cross who was being crucified with Christ? He asked the Lord to remember him and Jesus said, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Tell me how the Church saved this thief, ok?
You wrote:
“The RCC is not the church of the true faith anymore.”
False. The Catholic Church is what it always was - sent by God. Your reasoning is faulty. If the Catholic Church ever was the “church of the true faith” as you just implied it was, it must still be that for Christ only founded one Church.
“It has twisted itself into another religion.”
No such thing could happen according to what you just said. If it was true once, and you implied it was, it always will be. There is no other logical possibility. 2 + 2 has always equaled 4. That cannot change.
“Faith in Christ alone is what saves you, not the Church.”
Christ sent the Church. Clearly He believed it was necessary.
“The Body of Christ is what it is, the Body of Christ and what we call church, but it can’t save you.”
Christ saves through the Church. That’s why He sent it.
“Christ alone can save you and then you are (for lack of better word) incorporated into the Body of Christ.”
You’re cheapening the gospel - which is to be expected from Protestants - and ignoring what Christ Himself said and did.
“Remember the thief on the cross who was being crucified with Christ?”
Yes, most likely I remember St. Dismas better than you do.
“He asked the Lord to remember him and Jesus said, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Tell me how the Church saved this thief, ok?”
Since the Church was not yet revealed - that would not happen until Pentecost - your question is nonsensical. The Church was established to do as Christ did as sent by the Father (John 20:19-23). That does not mean Christ could not act before the Church was revealed. Also, I would not be so quick to assume “paradise” meant salvation in the sense a Christian would use the term.
You might want to read this:
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/dismissing-the-dismas-case
The last part of your answer is nonsensical. The Church was already established before Roman Catholicism took it over. It started way back in the Old Testament among those who believe that God had someone who was coming to save them from their sins. Of course, the New Testament reveals our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be the One who saves us.
That’s exactly why that janitor was so shaken that his coworkers thought he was having a heart attack.
And then Sandusky drove his car back and forth that night until 2 am.
Makes me wonder what he did to intimidate the higher ups.
You wrote:
“The last part of your answer is nonsensical.”
No, it is not.
“The Church was already established before Roman Catholicism took it over.”
The Catholic Church is the Church.
“It started way back in the Old Testament among those who believe that God had someone who was coming to save them from their sins.”
No. Someone can certainly say that God planned the Church before all ages, but the Church was not founded or revealed to the world until the time of Christ. This is clear from Christ’s own words in Matthew 16 when Jesus says He WILL build His Church - meaning it did not yet exist.
“Of course, the New Testament reveals our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be the One who saves us.”
And He chooses to do so through the ministry of the Church - just as the New Testament makes clear in John 20:19-23 and other verses.
Media cannot being itself to call this RAPE, what it is. They have danced around “molest”, “having sex”, and “sexual assault”.
Children are incapable of freely consenting to anything like this. They are below the “age of consent”. So just because they or their parents did not report Sandusky does not mean it was “consensual”. Even if these pervs think the child is welcoming or encouraging such conduct, it is still never consensual.
It is a horrible series of crimes, and the media has played it down.
Meanwhile there is a media beloved group called NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association). The governing psychological group has removed man-boy “love” from definition of deviate behavior. This is all a Gay and media program to desensitize our culture to accept this crap as normal and OK.
His answer was “spot on,” that I am not a disciple of Jesus? Are you saying that Jesus no longer has disciples? Or just that because I haven’t “gone home to Rome,” I cannot possibly be a disciple?
What tortured doctrine, Vlad.
Are you saying that one can only be a disciple of Jesus within the structure of the Roman Catholic Church? And that Jesus is unable to disciple people outside of your denomination?
Your faith in Jesus is defective, Vlad, that you believe He only works within your church bureaucracy.
Again, I appreciate what this discussion has made clear, that the Roman Catholic Church believes that salvation is not found in Christ, but in your denomination. May readers’ eyes be opened to such heresy, and turn their eyes away from Rome and instead upon Jesus.
You wrote:
“What tortured doctrine, Vlad.”
Nope. Nothing torturous about it. God could have done anything to forgive us. Instead He chose to send His only Son to die on a Cross - after being born as a man and growing up in relative obscurity for 30 years. Torturous?
“Are you saying that one can only be a disciple of Jesus within the structure of the Roman Catholic Church?”
One can only be a true disciple when he is a true disciple. What does it take to be a true disciple? Can someone be a true, a full, disciple when he is in a sect, or a heretic, or a schismatic? No.
“And that Jesus is unable to disciple people outside of your denomination?”
It has nothing to do with Jesus’ ability. It has to do with Jesus’ choice. Jesus sent one Church, not 10, not 100, not 30,000.
“Your faith in Jesus is defective, Vlad, that you believe He only works within your church bureaucracy.”
And you’re a liar. I never once said Jesus works in only one ecclesial communion. That, of course, won’t stop you from lying about it, however. In the end, Protestants, like liberals, always resort to lying. Now, maybe you’re not lying. Maybe you’re just stupid. Could be. You might just be so dumb that you conflate two different ideas as one and pass them off as such. Let’s look at that.
Idea 1) To be a true disciple you must be in the Church Christ sent rather than in a sect, a heretic, or a schismatic. (Quite frankly the truth of that statement is obvious).
Idea 2) Jesus is able to work in only one ecclesial commuion. (I never claimed this, nor do I believe it, nor does any Catholic).
Clearly the two ideas have nothing to do with one another. It is also clear you cannot make a rational argument.
“Again, I appreciate what this discussion has made clear, that the Roman Catholic Church believes that salvation is not found in Christ, but in your denomination.”
Why do you have to be dishonest? Don’t you realize that lying is a sin? You cannot separate Christ from His body. To say the Church has nothing to do with salvation is to deny scripture. Again, read John 20:19-23. Jesus saw His mission, His ministry, is the same as the Church’s. He said so Himself. You, as a Protestant, must deny that. You must deny scripture. You must deny what the Church is. How sad.
“May readers’ eyes be opened to such heresy, and turn their eyes away from Rome and instead upon Jesus.”
What honest readers will see is your dishonesty. I never said Jesus is able to act only in one Church. That is your lie. And you, as Protestants always seem to do, had no problem putting a lie, a complete fabrication, out there. I always wonder why Protestants have no qualms about outright lying about what Catholics say, believe, or do. It seems to be testimony that they are not true disciples of Christ.
Vlad — did not leaders of the Roman Catholic Church kill Reformers during the so-called “Protestant Reformation”? Did they not call for and affirm the murders of those who denounced the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church?
Your resorting to calling me a liar tells me that your argument has failed.
You degrade Scripture by saying that Christ no longer has disciples as portrayed by Scripture, that the disciples Jesus had when He walked the earth are substantially different from the disciples He has now.
Jesus connected directly with people. He called for people to be in personal relationship with Him. He engaged people directly. He said that He, personally, is the way and the truth and the life. Pretty much the only people that He condemned were the religious leaders, who insisted that people can only connect with God through the dominant religious establishment. You, Vlad, seem to have more in common with the Pharisees and their cabal than with Jesus and His friends.
Jesus, while He walked the earth, was a Protestant, protesting loudly against the religious establishment that injected itself between God and people.
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