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Dear Arizona; Has SCOTUS made secession your only option
Monday, June 25, 2012 | Bob Ireland

Posted on 06/25/2012 12:13:28 PM PDT by Bob Ireland

Dear Arizona;

As Justice Antonin Scalia has just written, the SCOTUS opinion against the state of Arizona concerning immigration problems has made the phrase 'sovereign state' of no further effect.

The primary function of government is to serve the people it represents. One primary function under that obligation is to protect the population it serves. The SCOTUS opinion states that - if the United States Federal Government has statutory mandate to fulfill that obligation - then the state has no right to supersede the Federal Government when the Federal Government refuses to extend that protection.

The effect of the SCOTUS opinion today is to eliminate states' rights' in a major area of the states' statutory mandate. Put another way, the Federal Government can establish rules that eliminate states' rights under historical common law.

This author therefore suggests that the state of Arizona call a Constitutional Convention of interested states - to potentially include Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Alaska and perhaps the Carolinas [and any other state wishing to bind itself under such restrictions as herein mentioned] - pursuant to forming a new sovereign nation established under the auspices of the original Constitution of the United States.

Such Declaration of Independence should include a rejection of an imperial presidency which reserves unto itself the right to establish and enforce laws as it best sees fit without legislative oversight. The Declaration should reject all laws and regulations that establish a socialist, communist or dictatorial interpretation of states' rights or citizen's rights.

Such a federation or commonwealth should recognize in perpetuity the right of any member state to withdraw from the union when the said union jeopardizes the rights, liberties or the pursuit of happiness of said member state and its citizens. It should recognize the responsibility of the Executive Office as lawfully established to enforce laws properly passed by the legislature of representatives of the people, and to be interdicted against reinterpreting the meaning of such legally passed laws or refusing to enforce said laws.

The convention of agreeable states should establish such legal standards as were envisioned by the Founding Fathers of the United States, and should carefully protect states' rights and individual citizen's rights.

It is impossible to see any other alternative for states and citizens wishing to protect their Constitutional rights in the face of a runaway Federal Government of the United States, and its various organs, that has all but suspended the founding intent of the original Constitutional Convention.

LET FREEDOM RING!!!


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: constitution; secession; statesrights; vanity
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See y'all in the re-education camp! [:-/
1 posted on 06/25/2012 12:13:34 PM PDT by Bob Ireland
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To: Bob Ireland

SCOTUS is a bunch of chicken**** cowards. Barry made them wet their robes. Let the invasion of the southwest by latin America roll on!


2 posted on 06/25/2012 12:19:25 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (64% of Americans support amnesty and find the Wet DREAM Act "a big hit!" - New Bloomberg Poll)
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To: Jim Robinson; MinuteGal; gonzo; JulieRNR21; seekthetruth; M Kehoe; Matchett-PI; mcmuffin; ...
PING ... and all that...
3 posted on 06/25/2012 12:20:31 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: Bob Ireland

I won’t go to the re-education camp because I’d rather stand on my feet and die fighting.


4 posted on 06/25/2012 12:20:58 PM PDT by MeganC (No way in Hell am I voting for Mitt Romney. Not now, not ever. Deal with it.)
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To: Bob Ireland

Secession is not a legal option.

The only way to constitutionally get out of the Union is to have Congress pass a law excluding a state or states. And that may not even be constitutional.

Madison declared once in the Union always in the Union.

Maybe a constitutional convention or amendment might make it possible. But possible or not it is a very bad idea and would lead to far more troubles than it would solve.

Besides Sheriff Joe is not too upset by the ruling.


5 posted on 06/25/2012 12:23:16 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: Bob Ireland
If at first you don't secede, try, try again.
6 posted on 06/25/2012 12:24:42 PM PDT by Forgotten Amendments (Let's name a law after a kid who died because of CAFE standards!)
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To: Bob Ireland

I think we should just stop paying federal taxes. We can bring this regime to its knees by starving it.

But I don’t see a coordinated effort happening. Too many people don’t have the spine to break the law even though this administration has done so repeatedly and Congress won’t stop it.


7 posted on 06/25/2012 12:24:55 PM PDT by fatnotlazy
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To: Bob Ireland
The simplest and easiest thing to do is scour the state statutes to find every instance where there may be an existing federal pre-emption or even partial pre-emption and simply refuse to enforce such laws as convient to the state or local budget.

A law passed back under Jimmy Carter made it a violation of federal law to kill or harm a federal employee, appointee or elected member of Congress, etc.

It should be the most trivial of exercises to EXCLUDE those folks from state and local protection in case of accidents, killings, robberies, etc.

Just wait on the FBI to find the bodies, or the injured parties, and tend to them.

8 posted on 06/25/2012 12:26:46 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Bob Ireland
As much as I sympathize and have even written about nullification, don't put it past this president's thinking to provoke any excuse he can to declare a state of emergency prior to the November election. We are truly dealing with a force of evil and there is no outrage beyond his imagination that he would not try if he believed he could succeed. If the Republicans should win the election and fail to reverse the damage they and the Democrats have done, then I would say there is no other recourse but to change the guards.
9 posted on 06/25/2012 12:28:23 PM PDT by trubolotta
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To: Bob Ireland

Won’t happen. The most probable outcome will be that Arizona writes a new law that creatively plugs whatever holes caused it to not receive SCOTUS blessing that attempts to plug the leak.

I can see a situation where they create a law that requires specific identification for actions that fall under State authority and once that is in place, they can arrest anyone who doesn’t have that identification, irregardless of suspicion of citizenship status. Then, once they are in custody, a background check will be done, immigration status one of the factors.

Of course, the civil libertarians will throw a fit.


10 posted on 06/25/2012 12:30:12 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: arrogantsob

“Secession is not a legal option”

BS. The way the Constitution works is unless a power was explicitly sacrificed by the states it is reserved for the states or the people. Cf. the tenth amendment. There need not be a secession process drawn out for it to be legal. Since the Constitution does not say that the union is perpetual, and does not say that the states cannot secede, they can secede.

This is elementary. If the states had known in 1789 that the union was perpetual they never would have ratified it. Everyone knows that.

By the way, if it’s not legal, so what? Then it’s a revolution. Declaring independce wasn’t legal, nor was replacing the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution.

“Madison declared once in the Union always in the Union.”

He should have declared it in the Constitution.

“possible or not it is a very bad idea and would lead to far more troubles than it would solve”

Maybe, maybe not. I’m thinking more and more things might’ve been better had we just let the South go.


11 posted on 06/25/2012 12:30:24 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: arrogantsob

Secession is not a legal option...

LOL - Of course it is not!
Rebellions, revolutions, and successions never are legal.

They are done in point of fact by locales, districts, areas or states, not by Federal law, and they are done because the controlling head of state has broken down into actions considered unlawful or repugnant to those so declaring - at gunpoint if needed.


12 posted on 06/25/2012 12:31:23 PM PDT by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: Bob Ireland
None of us have seen 'nuttin if Obama gets re-elected. As for this decision....AZ should keep on doing what she has been doing to protect the borders. This SCOTUS has successfully enabled Eric Holder to do nothing again.

Tea Party GET OUT THERE AND START THE SOUND AND FURY OF WE THE PEOPLE!

13 posted on 06/25/2012 12:35:06 PM PDT by yoe (Proud to be part of the Tea Party movement.....!!!!!)
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To: Bob Ireland
You folks do not seem to realize that the Constitution has all but been nullified in the last ten years. Legal no longer enters into the issue.

I am advocating sovereign [not individual] rebellion against tyranny!

14 posted on 06/25/2012 12:39:12 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: Tublecane

The constitution merely changed the form of government of the union declared “perpetual” by the Articles.

Conditional ratification (the ability to rescind a ratification) was widely discussed at the state ratification conventions for the Constitution. The most direct comment came from the letter Madison wrote to Hamilton on the occasion of the NY state convention where the antis had Hamilton momentarily stymied. The constitution had already been written.

The Revolution was against the Royal government within which there was no representation and which our people had never given its consent and were not treated as “Englishmen”. You are advocating a revolution against a government which is of our own making and within which we have representation. It is silly to believe that anyone today could come up with something better without a massive restriction of the number of people who could vote.

Had the Union been split by the RAT Rebellion of 1861 you would probably be speaking German and saluting Hitler’s successor. There was nothing good or principled about the South’s stupidity, it was an IGnoble Cause from start to finish. That was what Washington warned about in his Farewell Address.


15 posted on 06/25/2012 12:42:21 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: Bob Ireland

Verry interesting.

16 posted on 06/25/2012 12:43:22 PM PDT by McGruff (Support your local Republican candidates. They are our last line of defense.)
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To: Bob Ireland

Amen


17 posted on 06/25/2012 12:43:29 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: McGruff
***Verry interesting.***

LOL!!!

18 posted on 06/25/2012 12:45:22 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: bill1952

Let me know when the Committees of Correspondence form.

You know, of course, that the Colonials exhausted all forms of legal protest and attempted to have their concerns addressed for decades before Lexington.


19 posted on 06/25/2012 12:45:51 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: arrogantsob

So, you have a contract with someone, and they refuse to live up to that contract, but you are still obligated to remain in that contract and fulfill your part?

I realize “the other side” has a gun pointed at you, but that isn’t “legal”.


20 posted on 06/25/2012 12:46:26 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

It’s actually not the SCOTUS that is the problem here,
but the 0bama administration’s refusal to cooperate with the part of the law they upheld.


21 posted on 06/25/2012 12:48:03 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: arrogantsob
***You are advocating a revolution against a government which is of our own making and within which we have representation.***

Your position appears indefensible on both counts... but 'perilous times' for sure.

22 posted on 06/25/2012 12:49:04 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: Bob Ireland

The part of the law that actually mattered to me, making TPD actually give a crap about illegals, stood. The rest was window dressing.


23 posted on 06/25/2012 12:50:12 PM PDT by discostu (Listen, do you smell something?)
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To: MrB
There is no contract here. Arizona was CREATED by the federal government and governed under federal regulations and laws as a Territory for decades. It did not join the Union until 1914.

Only the original 13 would have any claim of preexistence outside the Union. And not even all of them had Constitutions in place prior to the Revolution.

24 posted on 06/25/2012 12:51:59 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: arrogantsob
***... attempted to have their concerns addressed for decades before Lexington***

FR has at least one decade! E.g. impeachment: 1998...

25 posted on 06/25/2012 12:52:15 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: Bob Ireland

bookmark


26 posted on 06/25/2012 12:56:15 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: discostu
***The rest was window dressing***

SCOTUS rulings become much more invasive over all law than you seem to realize. Do not look at this ruling as only applying to Arizona immigration problems. Antonin Sclaia has properly noted that this ruling eliminates 'State Sovereignty'.

27 posted on 06/25/2012 12:56:37 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: Bob Ireland

Who do you think made this government? Aliens? It has grown into what it is because that is what the majority wanted. Our problem is not so much who is in it but that it reflects what the People have wanted. Without a massive change in how people think (mainly women actually) there will be no significant change.

Just because you do not like the representation or agree with it does not change the fact that we have it.


28 posted on 06/25/2012 12:56:37 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: Bob Ireland
I firmly believe that some event or series of events will compel the several states to lead the effort to dissolve the tyrannical Federal government and reconstitute a Constitutional Republic.

As bad as things seem we are no where near that point. The Statists of both parties will try to play us for as long as possible -- stealing our wealth and our Liberties.

The second reason it will not happen soon is that there a no elected leaders on the national scene that have the true love of Liberty to spearhead such a movement.

Sadly, I think we have many years, if not a decade or more of this growing tyranny before real change happens.

29 posted on 06/25/2012 12:57:56 PM PDT by sand88
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To: arrogantsob
***Just because you do not like the representation or agree with it***

Executive fiat is not representation. The Caesars succeeded in eliminating the Roman Republic Senate in the same manner you prescribe... all by popular fiats.

30 posted on 06/25/2012 1:00:32 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: Bob Ireland

It was the rest of the law I was describing as window dressing not the ruling. As for Scalia he’s about 35 years behind the curve. 55 MPH speed limit was the end of state sovereignty.


31 posted on 06/25/2012 1:00:41 PM PDT by discostu (Listen, do you smell something?)
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To: Bob Ireland

Didn’t a bunch of Southern States attempt the succession thing back in the 1860s? I think they called it The War Between the States or The Great Civil War.

This decision today is why it is imperative that the next SCOTUS appointee be a Conservative.


32 posted on 06/25/2012 1:00:53 PM PDT by vortigern
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To: Bob Ireland
That is fine and most of our activity has been directed at stymieing the Democrats/media not an unresponsive Royal government. This is a totally different situation and much more difficult to organize effective opposition. When Bush was in office the same kind of sentiments ("I'm moving to Canada, if Bush is re-elected" etc.) were expressed by the Left.
33 posted on 06/25/2012 1:01:12 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: discostu

I can see you need to hyperventilate more to be at home on this thread.


34 posted on 06/25/2012 1:02:25 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: arrogantsob

LOL. Yeah I get that problem a lot.


35 posted on 06/25/2012 1:03:52 PM PDT by discostu (Listen, do you smell something?)
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To: Bob Ireland

The primary purpose of our current media-gov’t-academia complex is to elect a new people, i.e. eradicate White Christians from the U.S. body politic. They would respond to serious secession efforts with genocidal fury.


36 posted on 06/25/2012 1:05:07 PM PDT by kreitzer
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To: Bob Ireland

Aren’t we speaking of a Judicial finding here? Executive fiat in this Republic only applies to controls over the executive branch responsibilities.

Caesar eliminated the Republic by refusing to lay down the control over his ARMY which he brought back into Italy from Gaul. He and his successors ruled THROUGH the Senate no by executive fiat in any case. They never eliminated the Senate just its power.

Where did I “prescribe” anything? I only described.


37 posted on 06/25/2012 1:07:27 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: arrogantsob
Secession is not a legal option.

Well, that is an opinion based on the result of a war.

As Ben Franklin said "Force sh*tes upon Reason's back."

Whatever eloquent argument one might make for the legality, constitutionality, etc., of a particular act, it really boils down to who has the ability to use force to enforce their desire.

Heck of a way to run things, but there you go.

38 posted on 06/25/2012 1:08:26 PM PDT by B Knotts (Just another Tenther)
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To: vortigern

“This decision today is why it is imperative that the next SCOTUS appointee be a Conservative.”

BINGO!!


39 posted on 06/25/2012 1:09:06 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: B Knotts

My belief is based upon the thoughts of the Founders and the meaning of a “constitution” not the result of that little dust-up of 1861-5.


40 posted on 06/25/2012 1:11:38 PM PDT by arrogantsob (Obama must Go.)
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To: discostu
***55 MPH speed limit was the end of state sovereignty.***

You bring up a good point and one I have been ringing an alarm on for some years. Such laws as the 55 mile-an-hour speed limit had one limitation: the states did not have to abide by it, but they would lose federal funding for roads.

All these federal agencies can dictate to the states because they have the power to cut off federal funding for roads, housing, food stamps, welfare, health care, etc., etc.

The problem inherent there is that the federal govt. is taking too much $$$ out of our local communities so that we cannot provide the services we need by raising local taxes - Taxed Enough Already!

In the end it all comes back to the same issue: a federal govt that is run-away with all freedom and liberties.

41 posted on 06/25/2012 1:11:46 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: yoe
Photobucket
42 posted on 06/25/2012 1:12:34 PM PDT by baddog 219
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To: arrogantsob; vortigern
***This decision today is why it is imperative that the next SCOTUS appointee be a Conservative***

...like john Roberts?

43 posted on 06/25/2012 1:15:11 PM PDT by Bob Ireland (The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise)
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To: arrogantsob

My point is simply that it is power, not reason, that ultimately decides such questions.

Secession is legal only to the extent that force allows it to succeed. Had the South won, it would have been “legal.” Because it lost, it was “illegal.”

This has been true throughout history. Peaceful secession is almost unheard of.


44 posted on 06/25/2012 1:15:39 PM PDT by B Knotts (Just another Tenther)
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To: fatnotlazy
We can bring this regime to its knees by starving it.

The Feds will just print what they don't steal. That isn't going to work.

45 posted on 06/25/2012 1:17:41 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: arrogantsob
It has grown into what it is because that is what the majority wanted.

That fits Venezuela and it almost fit Chile. I suppose the minority could just accept that as their fate and let liberty be taken because after all, it is what the majority wants. Does failing to effect a massive change in how people think mean we must accept tyranny? I'm all for changing peoples minds but you do reach a point where you say my liberty is more important than their comfort.

46 posted on 06/25/2012 1:19:05 PM PDT by trubolotta
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To: Bob Ireland
But the indissoluble link of union between the people of the several States of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the RIGHT, but in the HEART. If the day should ever come (may Heaven avert it !) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other, when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bonds of political association - will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests and kindly sympathies

Exactly what the left has always wanted.

47 posted on 06/25/2012 1:21:42 PM PDT by mdittmar
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To: mnehring

Doesn’t matter how many Illegals they arrest - the never-to-be-sufficiently-cursed President has ordered ICE not cooperate with AZ Law Enforcement on illegal aliens.


48 posted on 06/25/2012 1:23:36 PM PDT by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: kreitzer
They would respond to serious secession efforts with genocidal fury.

Bring it.

49 posted on 06/25/2012 1:26:23 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: arrogantsob

“The constitution merely changed the form of government of the union declared ‘perpetual’ by the Articles.”

Huh? No it didn’t. It replaced the Articles wholly, and illegally at that. Yeah, okay, so preamble says “a more perfect union,” but not I notice a more perfect perpetual union. If it wanted to remain perpetual, why didn’t it say so? What other phantom passages from the Articles are incorporated by the Constitution without it saying so? You and I know that the union that was supposed to be perpetual was specifically the union as outlined by the Articles.

This other union, the one we live in now, was not envisioned by the states when they agreed to the Articles. I know it was a new union because they had to agree again. Why go through the process of ratification if the states had sacrificed their sovereignty to the Articles and it was perpetual? Becuase for a new government to supercede the Articles the states had to agree, because they were still sovereign. In the exact same manner, they could agree to another new union different from the one according to the Constitution if they saw fit, because they are still sovereign.

To think they could shuck off one constitution, the Articles—and use their sovereignty to do so—and not another, the Constitution, is bonkers. I suppose you’ll say it was different than a seperate state or a group of states that isn’t all the states forming a new union because it’s all the states together as a union that’s the perpetual thing. You can organize them, shuffle them back and forth, make left right and up down, and change the form of government all you want, so long as they’re all still one union? That’s bunk. Know why? Because you resorted to asking the states’ permission on the pretext that they are sovereign. And you still call them sovereign. If by their sovereign power they can change the form of government of the union, then they can choose to be independent or link up with any number of states within or without the union.

The states came before the union. The union did not make the states. This whole idea that the union is the thing, that it is forever, and that the states can mold it any way they want but can’t escape it is Lincolnian nonsense. It is after the fact rationalization because you’ve lived within the union all your life, think it’s natural, and can’t imagine the states without it. But they didn’t have to link up, didn’t have to seek independence together, and don’t have to stay united. That they did is an accident of history. It does not have to stay that way.

By the way, even if the Articles said they were for a perpetual union, it still says, and it also says in the Constition, that the states are sovereign, no? The Articles created a confederation of sovereign states, as I understand it. What does it mean to be sovereign except that the states reserve the right to leave the union? You can’t be sovereign if you’ve given up your sovereignty. That makes no sense.

“Conditional ratification (the ability to rescind a ratification) was widely discussed at the state ratification conventions for the Constitution. The most direct comment came from the letter Madison wrote to Hamilton on the occasion of the NY state convention where the antis had Hamilton momentarily stymied. The constitution had already been written.”

I don’t really understand your point here. But let me say, conditional ratification wouldn’t have to be written into the Constitution. The tenth amendment didn’t have to be written, either, but it makes clear that all powers not granted to the federal government by the Constitution are reserved by the states or the people. The Constitution therefor did not have to tell the states they still had the right to leave after ratification.

Ratification was de jure conditional, even if that wasn’t made explicit. It didn’t have to be explicit. You have the Constitution backwards.

You keep referencing Madison, and I’ll just assume you’re right about him. What about the scores of people then and later, Northern, Souther, and Western, who explicitly asserted or acted as if they believed in retained sovereignty and the right of secession? Do they not count?

“The Revolution was against the Royal government within which there was no representation and which our people had never given its consent and were not treated as ‘Englishmen’”

So? What is the point, here? You’re talking about the reasons for seperation, whereas I thought the argument was over its legality. Much rides on your point about consent, though not so much as you seem to think. So they never gave consent. I’m not sure it matters, since the colonies can be seen as creations of the crown instead of the states as creators of the union. But nevermind, what does it mean to consent? Consent once and that’s it? You can never take it back? Does that represent sovereignty to you?

The colonies revolted as corporate agents of the people against their having been denied the rights of Englishmen. They can do so again against the U.S. under the Constitution, for denying the people their rights or for any old reason. That’s what sovereignty actually means.

“You are advocating a revolution against a government which is of our own making and within which we have representation”

So? Governments properly formed and constituted can become destructive of the ends of liberty. Anywa, the states are still sovereign. They can secede for good or bad reasons; it doesn’t matter. I don’t recall the Declaration declaring:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Unless at some time in the past they agreed to it, and they have representation of some sort. Then they’re screwed and have to stick with whatever government.”

Pretending as if onloy the War for Indepence was justified and the states revolting against anything else out of bounds is ex post rationalizing and cherry-picking. Your argument is the exact same anyone arguing for the colonial system or the Articles of Confederation as perpetual.

“It is silly to believe that anyone today could come up with something better without a massive restriction of the number of people who could vote.”

So? I still fail to see your point. Could you form a coherent argument, please? So it’d be silly, or undemocratic, or whatever. What does that have to do with its legality? What does that have to do with, if it’s illegal, being different than the illegal revolution or usurpation of the Articles?

“Had the Union been split by the RAT Rebellion of 1861 you would probably be speaking German and saluting Hitler’s successor”

There is no basis for this in fact or whimsy. If the nazis couldn’t invade across the Channel, certainly they couldn’t across the Atlantic. Whence this notion that the U.S. was in any direct danger from nazi Germany? I don’t get it. Must be because people cling to the illusion that we only fight wars of existential self-defense.

“Had the Union been split by the RAT Rebellion of 1861 you would probably be speaking German and saluting Hitler’s successor. There was nothing good or principled about the South’s stupidity, it was an IGnoble Cause from start to finish.”

Are we talking about the legality of secession as such, or beating up on the South? Let me join in: damn rebel redneck hillbilly racist human rights abusing jerkfaces. That being said, they had every right to leave the union.


50 posted on 06/25/2012 1:28:05 PM PDT by Tublecane
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