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'States Must Sacrifice Sovereignty to Save Euro'
Der Spiegel ^ | 06/27/2012 | David Crossland

Posted on 06/27/2012 6:24:36 AM PDT by Olog-hai

Europe's leaders convening in Brussels on Thursday for an European Union summit are under intense pressure to come up with a new plan to save the euro, but they seem as divided as ever.

Chancellor Angela Merkel used uncommonly stark language on Tuesday when she rejected the idea for common euro bonds by saying Europe would not share total debt liability "as long as I live."

But German media commentators have drawn some comfort from a blueprint for a radical revamp of the eurozone's architecture presented this week by the "gang of four" European presidents: European Council President Herman Van Rompuy, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, Euro Group President Jean-Claude Juncker and European Central Bank President Mario Draghi.

The ideas would entail a dramatic loss of national sovereignty through the establishment of a central authority with power to demand changes in individual members' national budgets, as well as a "medium term" move towards euro bonds, as well as a banking union with a single authority that would insure banking deposits and have the power to shut or recapitalize banks directly, with help from Europe's permanent bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism. …

German commentators say EU leaders will have to grasp the nettle and agree to at least the basic framework of a complete overhaul of the euro system if they want to save the single currency. Many agree with Merkel that euro bonds are the wrong answer, and that American calls for Germany to throw money at the problem won't solve the crisis. All countries will have to accept a loss of sovereignty to make the currency work in the long term—and in the medium term, says one commentator, the European Central Bank should take a bigger role in tackling the crisis. …

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: eucrisis; euro; eurocrisis; merkel; sovereignty
When the Federal Reserve was created, the US dollar never stopped losing value. Since that time, it has lost 95 percent of same. But when you are after power (as the creators of the Fed were), things get a little blinded and the long term is not considered. And this is indeed a power play . . .
1 posted on 06/27/2012 6:24:43 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Angela Merkel in American translation: “Euro bonds will happen over my dead body.”

And our pathetic media is spinning this as a “maybe” !


2 posted on 06/27/2012 6:27:06 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: Olog-hai

Europe will erupt into war before this happens.


3 posted on 06/27/2012 6:27:25 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is, it is the only answer.)
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To: Lurker

Not likely. They’ve successfully deluded a large chunk of their populations. Many even think of the EU as being more free than the US. They’re pretty much hooked on EuroSoc, and are really brainwashed by the leftist doctrines. The governments are quite compliant . . .


4 posted on 06/27/2012 6:29:49 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Lurker

>>Europe will erupt into war before this happens.<<

With what? The UK is the only country with a standing army worth a damn (the rest rely on the USA) and they aren’t part of the Euro.


5 posted on 06/27/2012 6:30:06 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Guns Walked -- People Died -- Holder Lied -- Obama Golfed (thanks, Secret Agent Man))
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To: Olog-hai

This plan is dead on arrival, but nobody wants to admit it YET!


6 posted on 06/27/2012 6:30:27 AM PDT by Old Retired Army Guy
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To: Olog-hai

Well frack, I was just talking on another thread about an attempt to create a supranational European governance over the next two days.

And here it is. This is the Raft of the Medusa.


7 posted on 06/27/2012 6:34:40 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Old Retired Army Guy

why bother fighting WW2 if they are gonna hand it over to the germans now because that is what this is.


8 posted on 06/27/2012 6:35:38 AM PDT by sunmars
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To: Olog-hai
And this is indeed a power play . . .

Yes, it certainly is. Because the loss of national sovereignty is not required to save the Euro. If individual governments would balance their budgets (as originally "required,") the common currency would work very well.

9 posted on 06/27/2012 6:37:20 AM PDT by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: BfloGuy
No, that would still not work. The interest rate structure is out of whack with all the member states and holding down national debt to 3 percent of GDP by itself would not allow the less-industrialized countries to catch up to the more-industrialized ones (and there is still some serious mendacity going on in the industrialized ones too as far as their debt goes).

Besides, the euro was set up to create this financial crisis so that this power play could be put into play.
10 posted on 06/27/2012 6:40:57 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Expect the first budget items the EU cuts not to be retirement age austerity or any social programs, but the military.


11 posted on 06/27/2012 6:47:30 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: sunmars

The Germans? This is a power-grab by the EU’s supranational masters: an unholy alliance of stateless front-men and banksters.

The only way that Barroso, Rumpoy etc can continue their lives of ease is if they stop anyone getting off the ‘Raft of the Medusa’ (this is a historically-charged analogy for the Euro).

Now that the markets are threatening to wash everyone off the raft: the only way to keep them together is if they are tied together.

It’s not going to work for very long - but it’s not going to be very pretty while it lasts.


12 posted on 06/27/2012 6:48:32 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Lurker

“Europe will erupt into war before this happens.”

All the real men of Europe were killed off at the Somme, Verdun & Stalingrad. Today, except for the Germans, none of them are interested in working. An honest day’s work is a walk in the park compared to war. If they won’t work, what makes you think they will fight?


13 posted on 06/27/2012 6:51:30 AM PDT by henkster (Why should I care? Why should I care?)
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To: sunmars
They’ve been doing that for a while. I was reading the text of the Third Amendment to Ireland’s constitution (1972) and they were throwing away their sovereignty even way back then. I do wonder what people like Michael Collins would have had to say about that?—is that perhaps the real reason why he was killed . . . ?

For the record, Éamon de Valera was still Ireland’s president at the time (retired in 1973), so his signature sold Ireland’s sovereignty away. For a man who fought for Ireland’s “freedom”, why did it suddenly change to exchanging one empire for another? and one where there was no direct representation (at least under the British Empire’s constitutional monarchy, Irish Members of Parliament had real legislative initiative).
14 posted on 06/27/2012 6:53:44 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: agere_contra

No, he’s got it right. The parliament in Berlin has power over the EU’s laws; no other national government does.


15 posted on 06/27/2012 6:55:46 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
This is what that little rat Rumpoy has to say about the democratic process in the Eurozone.

4. Strengthening democratic legitimacy and accountability

Decisions on national budgets are at the heart of Europe's parliamentary democracies. Moving towards more integrated fiscal and economic decision-making between countries will therefore require strong mechanisms for legitimate and accountable joint decisionmaking. Building public support for European-wide decisions with a far-reaching impact on the everyday lives of citizens is essential.

So many weasel words. They will end up using the 'Community Method' - which is code for 'Rumpoy and Barroso stitch everything up between them'.

16 posted on 06/27/2012 6:55:46 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: agere_contra

They’ve been using language like that for decades. The Treaty of Lisbon and the Charter of Fundamental Rights are worse; the latter reads like the “fundamental rights and duties of citizens” of the USSR’s constitution, i.e. in part.


17 posted on 06/27/2012 6:57:34 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: agere_contra
Weasel words, yes, but the meaning is right there. Decisions on national budgets will become the purview of Europe's super-national institutions; national parliamentary democracies will be responsible for building public support for the decrees from Brussels.
18 posted on 06/27/2012 7:13:24 AM PDT by fluorescence
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To: agere_contra

European Union, jokingly referred to as “Greater Germany and France”, becomes “Greater Germany because it controls the purse strings”.


19 posted on 06/27/2012 7:16:23 AM PDT by tbw2
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To: Lurker

I agree. What people do not see is the opportunity for a “strong man” to arise. The next European “civil war” is always going to happen. The cause this time remains to be seen, but with current troubles, this may be the matchlight.


20 posted on 06/27/2012 7:17:17 AM PDT by alarm rider (I took the pledge, I will never vote for another RINO, not now, not ever.)
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To: Olog-hai

This will never happen, at least not for long. What the Germans mean by loss of sovereignty is that there will be a mechanism for forcing budgetary responsibility on the debtor states. What the other states mean is that there will be a mechanism for forcing the Germans to back and pay for everything.

These are incompatible. In the short term, the Germans would underwrite debt, but does anyone believe that a supranational agency could really force financial responsibility and make the non-Germanic states competitive?


21 posted on 06/27/2012 7:18:34 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: Pearls Before Swine

It’s not about making them “competitive”. This is a power play. The EU’s economy is the social market economy by treaty.


22 posted on 06/27/2012 7:21:29 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: alarm rider

Exactly. And a strong man can come striding in without warning, at any time; things are unstable enough.


23 posted on 06/27/2012 7:23:21 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: alarm rider

Exactly. And a strong man can come striding in without warning, at any time; things are unstable enough.


24 posted on 06/27/2012 7:23:22 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
In principle: all the EU member states remain sovereign. Case in point: Cameron vetoing the proposed new Bank rules.

In practice none of them truly are. They mostly rubber-stamp decisions made by 'the Community Method' as per the Treaty of Lisbon, except in those rare cases where a veto is used.

How many member states actually received so much as a referendum on the Lisbon treaty from their sovereign parliaments? IIRC, only Ireland - and they were re-polled until they gave the right answer. The Germans didn't get one.

Not even the European parliament is involved in (important) decisions. That is just a very well-paid talking shop busy creating destructive regulation and presenting a facade of representation.

However: the Germans, like the Finns and even the Italians - do retain a de facto power that (it turns out) Spain and Greece dared not use. This power is the ability to walk away. Germany can take their ball and go home. And I hope they will do so.

Fortunately the Germans may do exactly that. Their courts only accepted the Lisbon treaty if it was legally held not to institute a federal state. Now that Rumpoy has come out with this document, that decision will be revisited.

Hope this is helpful.

25 posted on 06/27/2012 7:30:22 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Olog-hai

‘States Must Sacrifice Sovereignty to Save Euro’

Sounds like a moocher plot-line from Atlas Shrugged...


26 posted on 06/27/2012 7:31:58 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: Pearls Before Swine
but does anyone believe that a supranational agency could really force financial responsibility and make the non-Germanic states competitive?

It won't of course.

But such a supranational agency will ensure that a worthless unelected political elite get to keep their jobs for a few more years.

27 posted on 06/27/2012 7:34:35 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Olog-hai

For any rational, even slightly educated and mature individual, and right from the giddy up...nations hemorrhaging their sovereignty (not to mention, autonomy) HAD to be an inevitable requisite in ANY consideration of a functional EU!

Why is it only NOW that this is a deal breaker?


28 posted on 06/27/2012 7:36:22 AM PDT by SMARTY ("The man who has no inner-life is a slave to his surroundings. "Henri Frederic Amiel)
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To: freedumb2003

I am an American Jingoist, but I KNOW that is not true.
They don’t have the combat experience our troops do, but they have good personnel and equipment. Main problem is political not military. Lets hope that problem remains.


29 posted on 06/27/2012 7:43:52 AM PDT by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Olog-hai

17 nations giving up their sovereignty. Yeh that will happen. Not.


30 posted on 06/27/2012 7:47:27 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: SMARTY

Maybe because it’s the last straw?

No-one in Europe voted for the Lisbon treaty, except plausibly some of the Irish. Parliaments across Europe adopted it without reference to their populace. Gordon Brown famously signed it in secret, after having promised a referendum to the UK.

The transporter-accident we know as the EU is the mashed-together dream of a supranational elite and ideological socialists. The 500 million people in the EU haven’t had much opportunity to express their opinion so far: they have generally moved rightwards under the yoke of the treaty (e.g. the New Finns party in Finland).

Maybe this time they will throw it off - or the markets will throw it off for them.


31 posted on 06/27/2012 7:47:27 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Olog-hai

17 nations giving up their sovereignty. Yeh that will happen. Not.


32 posted on 06/27/2012 7:47:35 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Olog-hai
The ideas would entail a dramatic loss of national sovereignty through the establishment of a central authority with power to demand changes in individual members' national budgets, as well as a "medium term" move towards euro bonds, as well as a banking union with a single authority that would insure banking deposits and have the power to shut or recapitalize banks directly, with help from Europe's permanent bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism. …

Soros...his followers and believers...and his billions...have come along way in creating a borderless Soros-ordered society. When will people learn.

33 posted on 06/27/2012 7:47:38 AM PDT by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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To: Olog-hai
It’s not about making them “competitive”. This is a power play. The EU’s economy is the social market economy by treaty.

I mostly agree. First, though, it has to be sold on the purported benefits. Those are fiscal responsibility, immediately through German financial obligations, and longer-term through control of the other countries. So, in effect it is pan-European socialism by treaty, as you say.

However, without crunching authoritarian control, this arrangement will have the Germans footing the bill for the continued lackadaisical behavior of the debtor states. It will be a long-term unstable situation, but for different reasons. The Germans will eventually rebel against higher taxes; so will the Greeks, the Spaniards, and the Italians, and moreover, against taxes imposed from outside.

34 posted on 06/27/2012 7:56:52 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: Georgia Girl 2
17 nations giving up their sovereignty. Yeh that will happen. Not.

Europe has no Lincoln.

35 posted on 06/27/2012 7:57:11 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Olog-hai

Socialists of the world -— unite!


36 posted on 06/27/2012 7:58:19 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (When religions have to beg the gov't for a waiver, we are already under socialism.)
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To: central_va

Good point.


37 posted on 06/27/2012 8:02:32 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Little Ray

>>They don’t have the combat experience our troops do, but they have good personnel and equipment<<

They are TINY (but I guess all about the same size so an EU war would be pretty even):

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/Europeandefence/edcountries/countrygermany.htm

Germany:

Total Armed Forces

Army: 160,000 including about 40,000 conscripts (plus about 130,000 reserves)

Navy: 24,000 including about 3,500 conscripts (plus about 4,000 reserves)

Air Force: 50,000 including about 10,000 conscripts (plus about 12,000 reserves)

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/Europeandefence/edcountries/countryitaly.htm

Italy:

Total Armed Forces

Army: 104,000
Navy: 34,000
Air Force: 44,000
Carabinieri: 107,000

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/Europeandefence/edcountries/countryfrance.htm

France:

Army: 112,800
Navy: 42,100
Air Force: 57,000
Medical Service: 8,500
Central Staff: 5,000
Gendarmerie: 101,000

USA By comparison:

Army 561,979
Marine Corps: 202,612
Navy: 323,139
Air Force: 329,640
Coast Guard: 41,327

(total 1,458,697)

Add to that 875,000 in active reserve...


38 posted on 06/27/2012 8:03:58 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Guns Walked -- People Died -- Holder Lied -- Obama Golfed (thanks, Secret Agent Man))
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To: freedumb2003

Yes, they’re much smaller. But their equipment is very good, their training decent and there are plenty of troops to wreak havoc across Europe.
Of course, they’d all risk bankruptcy trying to finance actual military campaigns.


39 posted on 06/27/2012 8:11:54 AM PDT by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Olog-hai

IIRC I think Farage calls this an attempt at a ‘Debt Union’.


40 posted on 06/27/2012 8:12:46 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: agere_contra
Building public support for European-wide decisions with a far-reaching impact on the everyday lives of citizens is essential.

Culminating in the historically popular:

"Next! Do you support this decision?"
"No."
[BANG]
"Next! Do you support this decision?"
"YES!!!"

41 posted on 06/27/2012 8:16:03 AM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: Olog-hai
accept a loss of sovereignty to make the currency work . . . ?

Successful business negotiators do not give up real things in exchange for phony promises. We trade real things for real things and promises for promises.

The Euro is phony right down to the fake landmarks printed on it. The dollar, for all the problems with the Fed, at least shows real people and real landmarks.

42 posted on 06/27/2012 8:24:54 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: agere_contra

Then I’m afraid you don’t understand the EU, or the German politicians who started the EU in the first place. Those politicians aren’t going to walk away from something they created, especially if it increases their power on the world stage. The CDU in particular are very passionate about a united Europe. I suspect the façade will eventually be stripped away (it already has in part, what with Ireland’s budget having been revealed to be reviewed by the Bundestag; a lot more of this kind of stuff will be openly seen in the future) . . .


43 posted on 06/27/2012 8:32:19 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: freedumb2003

OK . . . now imagine all of the above (plus those from other countries) united under a single command instead, like many “Europhilic” politicians want to happen.


44 posted on 06/27/2012 8:34:12 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: agere_contra

This would be like having $500,000 in the bank and combining your bank accounts with your three bankrupt neighbors. What could possibly go wrong?

Germany, as the only financially successful country in the whole block isn’t going to take budget orders from Spain, Greece, Italy, and France.


45 posted on 06/27/2012 10:11:43 AM PDT by nobamanomore
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To: Olog-hai
The interest rate structure is out of whack

If the interest rate structure is "out of whack," it is a result of central bank meddling. That can be cured by stopping the creation of money and allowing the market to set rates.

holding down national debt to 3 percent of GDP by itself would not allow the less-industrialized countries to catch up to the more-industrialized ones

Government debt does not spur any "catching up." If anything, it holds them back. Any GDP growth caused by fiscal deficits is illusory and will disappear at the next recession.

The monetary unit has nothing whatsoever to do with a country's economic development. True economic growth [i.e., capital growth] can take place anywhere the government doesn't siphon it away from the private sector.

I don't expect any of this to happen, but it's certainly economically possible. The Euro, whatever the reasons for its creation (and I agree largely with yours,) is not the problem. It functions as if the Euro-zone members had fixed exchange rates and that imposes a welcome discipline on governments.

We can see, even now, how drastically Ireland, Greece, Spain, and Portugal are cutting back on government spending. It isn't enough, but it never would have happened at all with national currencies. If allowed to, the Euro would function much as a gold standard and, ultimately, all Europe could be as stable and prosperous as Germany is.

That's theory, of course, but it's solid. Shame the Europeans aren't likely to follow it.

46 posted on 06/27/2012 2:58:06 PM PDT by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: BfloGuy

You sure got the central bank meddling bit right. Problem is, the fallout extended way beyond the eurozone’s borders.


47 posted on 06/27/2012 3:48:53 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
You sure got the central bank meddling bit right. Problem is, the fallout extended way beyond the eurozone’s borders.

Yep. Couldn't agree more.

48 posted on 06/27/2012 4:45:18 PM PDT by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: Olog-hai

A student of European history will note that when the greater populace gets nervous, and economic decline is apparent, they will look for relief from just such a man or maybe now, a woman. It’s a golden opportunity, and I would bet that the probable person nows sees the path.

If the EU has any sense, they will ease the strain or suffer the consequences. Just a thought.


49 posted on 06/27/2012 4:50:17 PM PDT by alarm rider (I took the pledge, I will never vote for another RINO, not now, not ever.)
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