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The Individual Mandate "Tax" Did Not Originate In The House
Vanity | 2012-06-29 | sourcery

Posted on 06/29/2012 2:53:03 PM PDT by sourcery

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act did not originate in the House. The bill that did originate in the House, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, did not contain any mandate fining (or "taxing," as the will now refer to it in Washington,) for failure to have health insurance.

That was Constitutionally acceptable during the period when fines for what someone has not done were still fines, and had not been converted into taxes by having the Supreme Court amend the Constitution sua sponte.

But as a tax, the mandate converts the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act into a bill that raises revenue.

Article I, Section 7: All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives

That makes Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional, because it's a bill that raises revenue that did not originate in the House.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: individualmandate; obamacare; revenuebill; tax; vanity
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1 posted on 06/29/2012 2:53:04 PM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery

Okay, assuming this has substance and basis in law, what are our gutless elected officials/representatives going to do about it??

Keep hiding under their desks while a lawless anti-American administration keeps destroying American individual soverignty and everthing else that makes America great?


2 posted on 06/29/2012 2:58:30 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: sourcery
You still don’t get it, do you? It’s a “tax” that doesn’t raise revenue!

The money goes to insurance companies . . .

3 posted on 06/29/2012 2:58:47 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The idea around which “liberalism" coheres is that NOTHING actually matters except PR.)
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To: sourcery
You still don’t get it, do you? It’s a “tax” that doesn’t raise revenue!

The money goes to insurance companies . . .

4 posted on 06/29/2012 2:58:54 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The idea around which “liberalism" coheres is that NOTHING actually matters except PR.)
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To: sourcery

So can the bill be declared null and void for failure to follow proper procedure?


5 posted on 06/29/2012 2:59:28 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: hoosiermama
So can the bill be declared null and void for failure to follow proper procedure?

NO, the Supreme Court has ruled it is constitutional.

Are the exemptions that have been given legal?

Only Congress can tax, and only Congress can declare exemptions.

Once SEIU realizes they are no longer exempt, they will not be for this just like the rest of us.

6 posted on 06/29/2012 3:09:15 PM PDT by occamrzr06
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To: sourcery

Didn’t you get the memo that came with the opinion?

The old Constitution is over. Done. Dead. A joke. A piece of worthless paper that’s strictly for conservative saps.

The new Constitution is whatever we say it is.


7 posted on 06/29/2012 3:12:08 PM PDT by mojito
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To: sourcery

Wrong. Reid took a House bill that had no chance of passing in the Senate, lopped off all of the actual text in that House-originated bill, added all of the ObamaCare text and passed it.

Thus, technically, the ObabaCare bill, at least the HR bill number, originated in the House.

It is a corrupt way to do it, but that, in a very small nutshell, is Harry Reid.


8 posted on 06/29/2012 3:14:56 PM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion; holdonnow

I’d like to see the thoughts of my favorite FR lawyer on this one.


9 posted on 06/29/2012 3:16:12 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: occamrzr06
NO, the Supreme Court has ruled it is constitutional.

The Supreme Court did not rule on the issue of whether or not the Act is Unconstitutional because it did not originate in the House. That issue was not before the Court, nor did yesterday's opinion address it.

10 posted on 06/29/2012 3:21:30 PM PDT by sourcery (If true=false, then there would be no constraints on what is possible. Hence, the world exists.)
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion

The penalty (or “tax” as Roberts re-wrote it) goes to the IRS and Department of the Treasury.


11 posted on 06/29/2012 3:22:44 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: savedbygrace
Reid took a House bill that had no chance of passing in the Senate, lopped off all of the actual text in that House-originated bill, added all of the ObamaCare text and passed it.

In other words, I am completely correct. The bill that originated in the House raised no revenue. Case closed.

12 posted on 06/29/2012 3:23:25 PM PDT by sourcery (If true=false, then there would be no constraints on what is possible. Hence, the world exists.)
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To: savedbygrace; bcsco

Bcsco posted the history and the bill numbers earlier today. The house bill was voted down. Then the Senate produced their own bill with a different number. It was not reconcilled but forced through the House with the midnight vote.


13 posted on 06/29/2012 3:23:25 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: savedbygrace

All the extralegal shenanigans by the Obother administration and his Rat myrmidons could fill a book.


14 posted on 06/29/2012 3:23:39 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (let me ABOs run loose, lew)
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To: savedbygrace

It shouldn’t matter that the bill came from the House. The question is where did the penalty come from.

Perhaps a lawsuit should be filed. Perhaps Roberts missed this in his zeal to uphold the law.


15 posted on 06/29/2012 3:24:31 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
Perhaps he figured that the lawyers in DC were smart enough to figure it out and use procedures in the Legislation to declare the entire thing null and void.

We need to find the rules both houses to see what that procedure might be....or if there is precedence.

16 posted on 06/29/2012 3:34:50 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: sourcery
The Supreme Court did not rule on the issue of whether or not the Act is Unconstitutional because it did not originate in the House. That issue was not before the Court, nor did yesterday's opinion address it.

So, you just think they asked the wrong question?

Please, take the tin foil hat off.

Roberts said, We are not going to save you from your stupid political mistakes, you figure that out.

We get the government we deserve, collectively!

17 posted on 06/29/2012 3:42:19 PM PDT by occamrzr06
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To: occamrzr06

If the Court missed the fact that this “tax” did not properly originate in the House, it is going to have to address this in another opinion to maintain any credibility as constitutional arbiter.


18 posted on 06/29/2012 3:50:17 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: hoosiermama; bcsco

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/28/say-doesnt-the-constitution-require-tax-bills-to-originate-in-the-house/


19 posted on 06/29/2012 3:50:53 PM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: sourcery

Nope.

The House bill was used as a shell bill, and the text was added in the Senate. It doesn’t matter to these corrupt jokers what the text of the bill was when the House passed it.

They’ve done this shell bill trick before. Your POV is not a winner.


20 posted on 06/29/2012 3:55:19 PM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: sourcery

So take it to court!

I’m sure the constitution will prevail!


21 posted on 06/29/2012 3:57:23 PM PDT by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

To the corrupt class, it only matters that the bill number originated in the House. They make the rules.


22 posted on 06/29/2012 3:57:23 PM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Exactly, exactly.


23 posted on 06/29/2012 4:01:00 PM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: occamrzr06
You're not a lawyer. You don't understand judicial restraint.

And you don't understand that without a pleading by one of the parties before the court, the court has no jurisdiction to rule as though the pleading had in fact been made.

The legal argument I have presented was not one of the pleadings made by any of the parties. That's why the Court did not consider it officially, nor they discuss it in their opinion. It was not a matter before the court.

24 posted on 06/29/2012 4:08:39 PM PDT by sourcery (If true=false, then there would be no constraints on what is possible. Hence, the world exists.)
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To: savedbygrace

I have found a potential problem with making a challenge under this clause of the Constitution. In prior cases, the Supreme Court already watered down this Consitutional requirement, called the “Origination Clause”:

A statute which raises funds to support a particular program, as opposed to raising revenue for the general Treasury, is not considered a “bill for raising revenue” within the meaning of the Origination Clause. United States v. Munoz–Flores, 495 U.S. 385, 398 (1990).

Only if it could be shown Obamacare penalties are not used to pay for this program would this challenge appear to have a chance of success.


25 posted on 06/29/2012 4:22:12 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: sourcery

See my post 25. I agree with you based on the text of the Constitution, but the Supreme Court appears to have already turned the “Origination Clause” into mush.


26 posted on 06/29/2012 4:23:49 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: sourcery

The Supreme Court has been grinding up the Constitution for decades now, and putting it out back in the form of unrecognizable sh*t. Including with yesterday’s opinion.


27 posted on 06/29/2012 4:25:06 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: savedbygrace; bcsco

Read what I wrote. We’re saying the same thing only reaching a different conclusion. The original House bill (HR 3962) passed the House but was completely restructured in the Senate and their bill became the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (HR 3590).

HR 3962 (original bill) should have been amended by the Senate then sent back to the House for reconciliation, but never was. The House later adopted HR3590 (the rewritten, separate bill) that originated in the Senate. The House used the reconciliation process in amending HR3590, but it should have been the other way around.

The point is, the democrats used improper procedures in getting this legislation passed. On top of the fact they obscured everything by rushing it through, insisting on it not be read before the vote. The whole thing was a big head fake.


28 posted on 06/29/2012 4:27:31 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: sourcery

Nor did they deal with the issue of which house the bill originated in...OTOH there are several other cases in the system. VA is also a “state” case, but IIRC a small business case and maybe othrs.


29 posted on 06/29/2012 4:34:17 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: hoosiermama

Read my post #25. Supreme Court ruled in earlier cases the Origination Clause” (revenue bills must originate in the House) does not apply to bills that raise revenues to fund programs, only for raising general revenues.


30 posted on 06/29/2012 4:37:09 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: savedbygrace; bcsco

Sorry that was Bcsco’s earlier post.


31 posted on 06/29/2012 4:38:38 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: sourcery

But the Bill is not for raising revenue, it is a legislative penalty (i.e., a Bill of Attainder).

Besides, if it is a tax, if it’s not an excise, not an impost, not apportioned, and not a tax on income, Congress has no power to levy it.


32 posted on 06/29/2012 4:41:04 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Anna Wintour makes Teresa Heinz Kerry look like Dolly Parton.)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

So, how did Roberts word his opinion? Does he say whether it’s funds for programs or general revenue?


33 posted on 06/29/2012 4:42:09 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: sourcery

I’m not a lawyer. Well, jeez neither is anyone else who seem to be throwing out their opinion.

I do understand the pleadings of parties, but you seem to disregard the courts duty to not re-write the law(although it may seem that Roberts did just this).

I think, in Roberts defense, he just said, this is stuff the legislative branch needs to figure out, while rebuke the citizenry by saying, this is what you get when you vote the way you do.

I’m not saying I like his decision, but the more I look at it, I understand it.

Quit waiting for everyone else to bail your sorry ass out and do something about it, rather than just whining like a liberal on FR!


34 posted on 06/29/2012 4:44:00 PM PDT by occamrzr06
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To: hoosiermama

He didn’t address this. The question is where is this money going? It goes to the Treasury. But if it can be shown that the money is for this program, this argument won’t work.


35 posted on 06/29/2012 4:45:34 PM PDT by LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity
Even if it goes to the treasury, is there a procedure in place though congressional rules to order the bill null and void? Must it again be taken through the courts.

Wrote congressman. My hope is the House will go on the Offense.

36 posted on 06/29/2012 4:50:30 PM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: LowTaxesEqualsProsperity

If zero has to hire thousands of new IRS agents, the $ probably goes to the treasury.


37 posted on 06/29/2012 5:02:05 PM PDT by txhurl (Scott Walker is my President.)
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To: savedbygrace

Yeah, just call him Gadianton Harry.


38 posted on 06/29/2012 6:12:11 PM PDT by Suz in AZ
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To: hoosiermama; bcsco

And I was pointing out that his post wasn’t accurate. I pinged him on that post and this one.


39 posted on 06/29/2012 7:37:24 PM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: savedbygrace; hoosiermama

And I appreciate that. I was unaware of the court’s previous affect on constitutional original intent.


40 posted on 06/30/2012 4:51:31 AM PDT by bcsco
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To: hoosiermama
Recall one of my replies to you yesterday in answer to how we should proceed...

Klayman To Seek Indictment Of Justices Roberts and Kagan Before Citizens Grand Jury

You had inquired of the possibility of a lawsuit, and I replied suggesting the possibility of Horowitz or Judicial watch...

41 posted on 06/30/2012 4:54:38 AM PDT by bcsco
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
The money goes to insurance companies

Who collects the "penalty" for no policy?

42 posted on 06/30/2012 4:58:30 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate Republicans Freed the Slaves Month.)
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To: savedbygrace
it only matters that the bill number originated in the House. They make the rules.

What about the "germaneness" of the amendment to the intent of the original bill. Isn't that a rule?

43 posted on 06/30/2012 5:03:32 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate Republicans Freed the Slaves Month.)
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To: ROCKLOBSTER

The IRS


44 posted on 06/30/2012 5:29:36 AM PDT by hoosiermama ( Obama: " born in Kenya.".. he's lying now or then?)
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To: hoosiermama; conservatism_IS_compassion
>>You still don’t get it, do you? It’s a “tax” that doesn’t raise revenue!

The money goes to insurance companies<<

_____________________________________________________

Who collects the "penalty" for no policy?

The IRS

_____________________________________________________

IT'S A TAX

45 posted on 06/30/2012 5:40:23 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate Republicans Freed the Slaves Month.)
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To: bcsco; hoosiermama

Thank you.

First, I tried doing my own research on this, and Google FAILed. So, I broadened my search and found the research had already been done.

When I first learned of the shell bill trick WRT ObamaCare back in 2009, I yelled at Reid through my computer screen. Didn’t work.


46 posted on 06/30/2012 5:52:47 AM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: savedbygrace; hoosiermama

Out of curiosity, when you broadened your search, where did you go beyond Google? Did you use proprietary databases, or something available to the public?


47 posted on 06/30/2012 5:57:03 AM PDT by bcsco
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To: bcsco

IIRC, I just changed the search terms. I don’t recall the details. I’m not an accomplished searcher, but more like the blind squirrel. LOL.

The problem finding the info on this apparently stems from the fact that the original House bill was changed by replacing the text with the ObamaCare text. The original bill text is difficult to find, and that makes it seem like it was always the ObamaCare bill. Imagine that.


48 posted on 06/30/2012 6:07:58 AM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: bcsco

BTW, at least for now, I’ve decided to pay the tax rather than buy ObamaCare insurance.

Oh, and Harry Reid never changes his underwear.


49 posted on 06/30/2012 6:10:14 AM PDT by savedbygrace (But God.)
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To: savedbygrace
Actually, I'd found the text of the original bill. Where I went astray is not knowing the prior history of court rulings. Also, tripped up by the statement that the original House bill "never became law". That, coupled with the fact the Senate essentially sent a new bill to the House for reconciliation, gave me the understanding that the legislation was improperly developed.
50 posted on 06/30/2012 6:19:17 AM PDT by bcsco
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