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Was John Roberts Influenced by the Catholic Hierarchy? (vanity)
July 4, 2012 | I-ambush

Posted on 07/04/2012 5:46:32 AM PDT by I-ambush

I apologize in advance for the fact this a vanity post.

As I have struggled to come to grips with the disastrous and, from a constitutional perspective, inexplicable Obamacare decision by John Roberts, I have read a wide spectrum of opinions, everything from the idea that the Chief Justice is a political genius, who wants to cement a Republican victory in November, to speculation that he was a closeted homosexual who was blackmailed into changing his opinion.

However, a thought occurred to me that I have not seen expressed so far (and I'm sure that someone here will correct me if it has), that Roberts may have been convinced to flip on Obamacare by the Catholic hierarchy. Consider that the healthcare law has been strongly backed by the Catholic bishops, and that Roberts is a devout Catholic. Could he have been contacted by American bishops, or even the Vatican, and pressed to "save" the law, even at the cost of betraying his conservative principles and the Constitution? This perspective may also help explain the constitutionally unacceptable opinion on the Arizona illegal immigrant law, which was also opposed by the Catholic hierarchy.

I write this from the perspective of a cradle Catholic and cradle conservative; two of my earliest memories are of the Latin mass and campaigning with my parents for Goldwater.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; catholichierarchy; deathpanels; obamacare; supremecourt; vanity; zerocare
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For your consideration.
1 posted on 07/04/2012 5:46:40 AM PDT by I-ambush
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To: I-ambush
The Catholics have already been screwed over by Obamacare, when Sebellius deemed that they had to buy into Planned Parenthood abortions, and abortificents, and health insurance that pays for Birth Control pills.

When Obama in essence attacked religious beliefs by using Obamacare as his weapon.

Now I don't believe after this experience that Bishops would contact Roberts and ask him to sell America out, but if they did then they just sold out Catholicism.

2 posted on 07/04/2012 5:51:53 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: I-ambush
Both the Catholic Church and all sincere Catholics strongly oppose Obamacare. Some Catholic organizations have already filed legal challenges to the law.

This speculation makes no sense at all to me.

3 posted on 07/04/2012 5:52:53 AM PDT by detective
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To: I-ambush

No. Pressure from the Obama Chicago machine is far, far more likely to be the cause of his inexplicable switch. Remember what team Obama did to Senator Jack Ryan in 2004. I suspect something similar here.


4 posted on 07/04/2012 5:52:57 AM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: I-ambush

I doubt this very much, for the simple reason that while many clergy originally backed ObamaCare the hierarchy now knows they will be footing the bill for it and any additional money siphoned from its flock by the government will result in lower revenue for the churches.

As far as the Vatican is concerned, while it generally promotes a greater good the Church itself is adamantly anti-socialist, with popes publicly writing against it. It is a violation of private property rights, and seen as a sort of theft of wages.


5 posted on 07/04/2012 5:53:30 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: I-ambush

With all due respect...you must be joking.


6 posted on 07/04/2012 5:54:17 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: I-ambush

So all of the lawsuits filed by the Church over the abortion/contraception/sterilization violation of conscience mandates are just cover?


7 posted on 07/04/2012 5:55:13 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: I-ambush
For your consideration...

Rejected, no thanks.

8 posted on 07/04/2012 5:56:10 AM PDT by vortigern
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To: I-ambush

no.


9 posted on 07/04/2012 6:00:14 AM PDT by kidd
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To: I-ambush

Nancy Pelosi is a cradle Catholic too. I don’t believe that Roberts was influenced by the Catholic hierarchy.


10 posted on 07/04/2012 6:01:30 AM PDT by CatQuilt (Lover of cats =^..^= and quilts)
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To: I-ambush

Hey, all I’m saying is Albino Assassin Monks can be pretty persuasive...

Freegards


11 posted on 07/04/2012 6:02:37 AM PDT by Ransomed
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To: detective

The speculation comes from the fact that ObamaCare originally had many cheerleaders within the ranks of the Catholic heirarchy. I doubt they pushed Roberts after they realized they’d be sharing the costs of ObamaCare, but the US hierarchy merits the suspicion.


12 posted on 07/04/2012 6:05:57 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: I-ambush

the Catholic church is at the end of a two week Novena called “Forthnight for Freedom”- its basically asking people to pray to end everything obama has done as far as obamacare (contraceptive laws and forced abortion in Catholic hospitals), forcing churches to perform gay marriage, ect...

the past two weeks the homily’s at mass have been as political as i’ve ever seen in the Catholic church and I never miss a mass (48YO) and went to Catholic school all my life..in my uber liberal town in NY they basically said, without saying, the way to change this all is vote obama out in November...my sister in law, who goes to a Catholic church in Orlando, says the people in church have freely and openly state obama must be voted out and they talk to the kids about what liberty and freedom really mean...

the answer to your question in No....


13 posted on 07/04/2012 6:07:57 AM PDT by God luvs America (63.5million pay no federal income tax then vote demoKrat)
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To: kearnyirish2

and you are right about that- something i took up with our parish priest after the first weekend mass which started Fortnight to Freedom- i thanked him for the homily and said it was very necessary.... i also told him the Catholic church has no one but itself to blame for blindly going along with “healthcare” legislation from someone who would not take a stand against live birth abortion...my parish priest, a former Marine who was on a Navy boat in the gulf during the hostage crisis in Iran in late ‘80, early ‘81, agreed...


14 posted on 07/04/2012 6:11:52 AM PDT by God luvs America (63.5million pay no federal income tax then vote demoKrat)
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To: I-ambush

I don’t think this is as complicated as some would like to make it.

Roberts knew “his” court was in danger of being viewed as entirely politicized and decided to do something about it by stretching the guiding principle of deference to the legislature that goes something like (IIRC) “if a law can reasonably be construed as constitutional it should be..etc” in order to cross the line.

The idea that he’s some sort of evil political genius who turned to the dark side with a view to the elections.. I mean, c’mon, I know Emperor Palpatine wore a dark robe too, but these divinations of the man’s inner motivations are getting a bit eccentric.


15 posted on 07/04/2012 6:15:23 AM PDT by gzzimlich
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To: detective

Makes perfect sense given a long American history of the eeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiiiillllllllll Catholic hierarchy being considered “un-American.”

Maria Monk, anyone?


16 posted on 07/04/2012 6:17:03 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: God luvs America

A novena - from the Latin novem - lasts for nine days not a fortnight - fourteen.


17 posted on 07/04/2012 6:17:03 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: I-ambush

Duh, the Catholic Bishops, Ave Mria University, Franciscan University just for starters have come out against this months ago.

The Catholic Church would lobby the Supreme Court?

Could you come up with a precedent for such an accusation other than sheer paranoia and bigotry?


18 posted on 07/04/2012 6:17:21 AM PDT by stanne
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To: God luvs America

Obama would have never been elected if the American Catholic Church had done its job; now they are asking the same parishioners who it originally sold out with ObamaCare (and Obama himself) to campaign to exempt them from footing the bill we ourselves are going to get.

I am a Roman Catholic in good standing with the Church; at this point it is a place I receive sacraments and little else. I certainly have little to help subsidize them.


19 posted on 07/04/2012 6:17:34 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: I-ambush
NO! You need to go and listen to Mark Levin's archives from the last week and learn the truth. roberts is a progressive drone... he wants a legacy and his hero is Chief Justice Warren... he wants to be liked by his fellow jurists and he wants his legacy to be one of love and adoration from the elite progressives and their lapdog press. He has no love or respect for American citizens and he operates outside of the US Constitution and his oath of office. He should be tried and if convicted... hung in the public square.

LLS

20 posted on 07/04/2012 6:17:54 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Don't Tread On Me)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Nevertheless, they have called it a Fortnight for Freedom.


21 posted on 07/04/2012 6:21:00 AM PDT by stanne
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To: I-ambush

Red Herring. I won’t guess the exact offer, but I am positive he was given an offer he couldn’t refuse. Simple as that. I would also bet it was about something that he will not ever be able to reveal, even on his death-bed.

I am also positive the same happened to Palin.

Occam’s Razor.

The power and money behind the crushing of America is for all practical purposes...unlimited. Makes the Mafia look like cub scouts.

Or..He is playing tripple 3-D, hyper-space, time-travel chess cause he is so smart. Yea...right...


22 posted on 07/04/2012 6:23:02 AM PDT by Gadsden1st
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To: I-ambush

Um...no. Roberts is a big boy and thinks for himself. He simply believes the federal government can do what they want. See Arizona immigration law as well.


23 posted on 07/04/2012 6:25:02 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: kearnyirish2

Now that’s true. The voting Catholics have a long way to go and they are mislead as well.

But the question was did the Hierarchy influence (i inferred lobby) the Chif Justice of the Supreme Court and that is another matter entirely.


24 posted on 07/04/2012 6:25:24 AM PDT by stanne
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To: LibLieSlayer

OK. Works for me also.

Now,

How do you explain Palin?


25 posted on 07/04/2012 6:27:04 AM PDT by Gadsden1st
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To: stanne

If this was at the time of ObamaCare initially passing, I would be more open to believing this was the case. Since many of the murky issues from that time have been cleared up (none of which favor the Church), I seriously doubt it.

Government interference in healthcare has already shuttered many hospitals, and this law would shutter many other Catholic organizations.


26 posted on 07/04/2012 6:32:15 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: I-ambush

I’ve been thinking the only tax that Roberts could be thinking of would be a church tax (though certainly not Roman Catholic), like they had in old Europe. This is the new Church of the Secular Elites. The mandate tax is forced compassion, support of same sex marriage is required, recognition of the sainthood of BO is enjoined, the beatification of Michelle, blessed be her name, is to be revered. Since most of the people who are opting out of buying health insurance currently (the “free loaders”—they only pay the Medicare payroll tax currently, which is probably only equivalent to what they spend on entertainment each month) are making a pretty good bet they won’t need health care in the next year, then the main perceived motivation for needing it is to bear the burden of others. If you happen to be a ZPGer who says,”Why don’t they all just die, and millions of others like them?” Well then, you need to be assessed this tax. The death panels will take care of your legitimate concerns anyway. Clearly, the next component of this compassion tax to be enacted is mandated life insurance, you pipsqueak who are not standing up to the responsibilities of your family should you die in an untimely way ( here, we can even invoke the founders, because didn’t Ben Franklin himself say, “nothing is sure but death and taxes.” Notice he didn’t say “sickness,” for which you would need the already mandated health insurance.) And none of that $1 million payout cheap stuff either. Your society needs at least $3 million per head to pay off the taxes you won’t be paying due to your early check-out (bug -out?); we need to pay those pensions to public employee early retirees who have self-sacrificed more by the time they’re fifty than you will if you work until you’re 85. Just call them compassion taxes.


27 posted on 07/04/2012 6:36:14 AM PDT by gusopol3
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To: I-ambush

Makes more sense than some of the things I’ve read.


28 posted on 07/04/2012 6:39:34 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: kearnyirish2

It’s not clear, what you are saying.

Is the suggestion that the Churh ierarchy would step in and actively influence the Supreme Court?

If so, some instance (not merely accusation) of their having done this in the past is needed.


29 posted on 07/04/2012 6:40:03 AM PDT by stanne
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To: mnehring

How does it make sense, exactly?


30 posted on 07/04/2012 6:42:15 AM PDT by stanne
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To: stanne

I don’t believe they did, because the financial ramifications for the Church itself had become apparent - they were going to get the same treatment as any business owner (Catholic or otherwise) was going to get.

Many in the hierarchy originally supported ObamaCare, ignoring the abortion issues involved (do you remember the bishops making the noise at the time that they are making now?). Now that their money (rather than human life) is on the line, apparently ObamaCare is something that our pastors can’t rail against enough.


31 posted on 07/04/2012 6:45:42 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: Gadsden1st
Palin is a republican Governor that aspires to the presidency. She has to remain supportive of republicans and romney in particular... and for the same reasons that Reagan supported ford... even though he despised ford. I am not a politician so I do not have to maintain party decorum.

LLS

32 posted on 07/04/2012 6:51:05 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Don't Tread On Me)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal
No. Pressure from the Obama Chicago machine is far, far more likely to be the cause of his inexplicable switch. Remember what team Obama did to Senator Jack Ryan in 2004. I suspect something similar here.

My feelings too. "You have a nice family there judge. Be a shame if something happened to it".....Pure Chicago style.

33 posted on 07/04/2012 7:00:07 AM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: stanne
The Catholic Church as a body has long supported social programs. Due to the structure of the home church, they often don't distinguish between an individual's duty to help the poor and government compulsion as the structure of the church has both intertwined together. From from the Catechism:
Respect for health

2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.

Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.

Not a knock against the Catholic church. This is just a cultural difference that must be overcome with many Catholics who think that somehow government compulsion is 'help' (when, as we know, it is apathy towards one's individual duty).
34 posted on 07/04/2012 7:02:58 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: kearnyirish2

WE all know the Church favors “social justice” and is mislead when it favors government doing the job of the Church.

The question was ad is: Do you think the Church actually influences the Supreme Court, even the Chief Justice?

And if the answer is yes, then a former instance of such an accusation is needed otherwise it is sheer paranoia and libelous speculation making Free Republic look not so good.


35 posted on 07/04/2012 7:11:31 AM PDT by stanne
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To: I-ambush
First, that's not how the church operates, Dan Brown novels notwithstanding.

Second, while the Catholic Church has generally favored some type of health care reform, the US Bishops were opposed to Obamacare even before it was passed.

36 posted on 07/04/2012 7:14:55 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: kearnyirish2
Obama would have never been elected if the American Catholic Church had done its job; now they are asking the same parishioners who it originally sold out with ObamaCare (and Obama himself) to campaign to exempt them from footing the bill we ourselves are going to get.

Correct. The hierarchy and their minions initially viewed Obamacare as an opportunity to shift the operating costs of Catholic hospitals onto American taxpayers, and imagined they could pick and choose the services these hospitals provided by invoking the religious exemption. Our bishop was quoted in the local paper as supporting Obamacare, provided abortion and contraception were excluded.

I am a Roman Catholic in good standing with the Church; at this point it is a place I receive sacraments and little else. I certainly have little to help subsidize them.

Same here. My charitable support budget will now be forcibly diverted to the IRS coffers, in tribute to Obamacare, and unlike the US government, I'm forced to accept the reality of mathematical limits.

Can't get blood out of a stone.

37 posted on 07/04/2012 7:16:01 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: stanne

As I’ve stated already, I do not believe the Church influenced the Supreme Court in its recent ruling. I don’t think less of anyone who believes they might have tried; their collusion with the Dems in getting Obama elected and ObamaCare initially passed warrants such cynical mistrust.

While the Republican Party is more in line with the ROMAN Catholic Church’s official positions on most issues, the hierarchy of the AMERICAN Catholic Church has lost all credibility while trying to convince American Catholics that they can vote for pro-abortion candidates without risking their immortal souls. In the past we were fortunate in having a Protestant (Bush) who was more “Catholic” than his Catholic opponent, Kerry; Bush won his elections for the most part by carrying the “Protestant” states, while his Dem opponents for the most part carried the “Catholic” states.


38 posted on 07/04/2012 7:18:35 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: mnehring

Anybody paying attention knows this.

Anyone paying attention knows catholics voted for OB 53% or so and Gore 49%.

The Question was die the Church Hierarchy influence (the use of the word Hierarchy implies active influence peddling; lobbying)the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

This thread has gone off this point making the New York Times pale in comparison to getting off point to curry an opinion.

My question, which has never been answered was and is: Do you think the Church Hierarchy actively sought out Roberts and told hime how to vote?

If you think so, what is the instance, not accusation, but instance where they ever did this before.


39 posted on 07/04/2012 7:20:21 AM PDT by stanne
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To: stanne

Sorry, I was away at daily Mass, so haven’t answered to any replies.

I’m not writing on the basis of any knowledge of what happened, just trying to make sense of the senseless.

It is true that the Bishops have strongly denounced the contraception and abortion requirements from HHS, but they continue to support the law in general.

I don’t buy the idea that a Chief Justice would be so concerned at the thought of bad press. I have heard speculation that he has suffered extortion of some sort, but is that really a more plausible possibility? What more could the administration offer him? He’s already the Chief Justice. Could he be a closet liberal? I could accept this as an explanation. However, it is apparent that he originally sided with the conservatives and someone influenced him to change.


40 posted on 07/04/2012 7:20:33 AM PDT by I-ambush (Don't let it bring you down, it's only castles burning.)
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To: BlatherNaut

“My charitable support budget will now be forcibly diverted to the IRS coffers, in tribute to Obamacare, and unlike the US government, I’m forced to accept the reality of mathematical limits.”

Since I live paycheck to paycheck supporting my family, and I’ve had to buy groceries with a credit card at times, I’ve rationalized my lack of financial support by looking at my involuntary IRS contributions as being key to feeding the poor (and my taxes far exceed 10% of my income). I used to give my children each a few dollars to put in the collection basket to instill a sense of shared responsibility for the parish; I’m done with that now. The American Church will reap what it has sown.


41 posted on 07/04/2012 7:24:53 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

Obama = young Michael Corleone

The reader can take it from there.


42 posted on 07/04/2012 7:25:02 AM PDT by Chaguito
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To: kearnyirish2

It’s a lot of stuff people talk about all the time.

The headline to this anti Catholic vanity, which I am now surprised was allowed to go through, was did the Church Hierarchy (Not the Church, the bishops the American Church) influence Roberts’ decision?

My question to all of the speculators who in their professed confusion find license to accuse the Catholic Church, merely because they doe this and then they do that, of actively lobbying the Supreme Court and it is a serious accusation.

If someone of this group of amateur sleuths could cite just one instance of the Church Hierarchy actively influencing the government then the conversation would end.

But it is not possible to do so.

It soulds like a 1960 “I’m not voting for a Papist” anti catholic Kennedy thing.


43 posted on 07/04/2012 7:29:17 AM PDT by stanne
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To: stanne

I am a Roman Catholic who believes that the Catholic Church (including the Eastern Rites) is the One True Church, and I have no problem with people questioning the role of the American Church hierarchy in this disaster from beginning to end because they themselves have consistently sought to dilute the anti-abortion message from Rome every election cycle with their “other issues” distraction.

Given that background, I see nothing “anti-Catholic” in the original vanity post; there is no reason to quash legitimate debate, and you have an ample forum to refute any points to disagree with.


44 posted on 07/04/2012 7:40:24 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: stanne

For starters, I AM a “papist.”
The Catholic bishops have always been and always will be politically and politically active. To say that they would try to influence the outcome of a political decision is not a calumny against the Church. I am surprised that many here are shocked at the thought they may have spoken to a son of the Church about a matter they believe has moral implications.

That said, I am not saying that I have evidence that that did influence Roberts.


45 posted on 07/04/2012 7:43:24 AM PDT by I-ambush (Don't let it bring you down, it's only castles burning.)
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To: kearnyirish2

i am very turned off by their standing on many political issues and as i said, in the case of obamacare they have no one but themselves to blame...

here in NY i usually give a nice donation to the Cardinals Appeal each year...they are now clamoring for “immigration reform” ala, make the illegals legal....i, probably like yourself- work 6 or seven days a week, pay my taxes and obey the laws- yet the Catholic church wants to reward the lawbreakers....i withheld my yearly donation to the Cardinals Appeal this year because of the “immigration reform” stance and when they call me and ask me why i will tell them exactly why...


46 posted on 07/04/2012 7:51:40 AM PDT by God luvs America (63.5million pay no federal income tax then vote demoKrat)
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To: kearnyirish2

I know many Roman Catholics very willing and ready to put down the Church and it’s leaders, unaware of the implications of doing so.

The title, the original question, was, as you can read: Did the Church Hierarchy influence Roberts?

My unaswered question was and is: Could you cite a specific example of the Hierarchy- and that implies an organized group, of course- influencing any governmental decision.


47 posted on 07/04/2012 7:51:55 AM PDT by stanne
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To: God luvs America

I don’t blame you; don’t worry, the IRS is kicking in your share for the feeding and housing of illegals the US won’t deport anymore.


48 posted on 07/04/2012 7:57:31 AM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: LibLieSlayer
He should be tried and if convicted... hung in the public square.

I wouldn't know about that but if he were tried and convicted, then he should be hanged in the public square.

49 posted on 07/04/2012 8:16:08 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (I miss Harriet Miers.)
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To: detective

Roberts supports obamacare which makes him a cino, not a Catholic


50 posted on 07/04/2012 8:18:12 AM PDT by jesseam
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