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George Zimmerman, the Constitution, and the shifting politics of self-defense
csmonitor.com ^ | 7 July, 2012 | Patrik Jonsson

Posted on 07/08/2012 5:47:37 AM PDT by marktwain

George Zimmerman’s lawyer says at the heart of the Trayvon Martin murder case lies a constitutional prerogative: The right of Americans to carry guns and use them in self-defense. Is he right?

Within 24 hours of Seminole County, Fla., Judge Kenneth Lester issuing a stern order allowing George Zimmerman, the defendant in the Trayvon Martin murder case, to post a $1 million bond, the volunteer neighborhood watchman received over $25,000 in donations, bringing his defense war chest to nearly a quarter of a million dollars.

Mark O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s attorney, wrote that donors have been lining up for several reasons – that he’s been unfairly treated by the media, that he’s been falsely labeled a racist, and that donors, if they were in a similar position, would likely have done the same thing.

But in making an appeal for more funds, Mr. O’Mara also suggested on Friday that many Americans have given because they feel “this case is an affront to their constitutional rights,” namely the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

IN PICTURES: Trayvon Martin

To be sure, many commentators say the case has mainly to do with Zimmerman violating Martin’s equal protection rights by profiling him and then illegally depriving the boy of his basic constitutional right of life.

But judging by the speed and size of donations to the defense fund, it’s clear the case continues to provoke a separate debate about America’s shifting stance on gun rights and the constitutional case for self-defense.

“People … are definitely thinking and talking about it,” Terrence Mayfield, 61, a Florida gun permit holder, told the New York Times a few weeks before the latest bond hearing. “This whole thing rests on who threw the first punch. Either the gun saved Zimmerman’s life or we had a cowboy, someone who

(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: banglist; fl; martin; trayvonmartin; zimmerman
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As the new media gets facts to the public, the disgust with the MSM grows.
1 posted on 07/08/2012 5:47:46 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

I’m not sure Zimmerman has a chance with a FL jury. Maybe a WY or ID jury (and that’s doubtful too), but not FL.


2 posted on 07/08/2012 5:49:44 AM PDT by Theodore R. (Past is prologue: The American people again let us down in this election cycle.)
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To: marktwain

the way GZ is being treated by the “justice system” disgusts me and shakes my whole trust in same to the core


3 posted on 07/08/2012 5:53:16 AM PDT by Jeff Vader
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To: marktwain

Zimmerman’s “war chest” shrunk by $100,000 because of the judge’s punitive bail


4 posted on 07/08/2012 5:54:04 AM PDT by silverleaf (Every human spent about half an hour as a single cell)
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To: marktwain

“As the new media gets facts to the public”

Indeed, if it weren’t for internet news sources and legions of investigative bloggers, the facts of the situation would never have been known.

The MSM are such liars. For example, from the article:

“To Trayvon supporters, THE FACT that a half-white, half-Hispanic man went free after profiling Trayvon, an innocent black boy, as a criminal, chasing after him, and then shooting the unarmed boy reeked of racial inequality and even institutional racism.”

Good Lord. . .”FACT?!”


5 posted on 07/08/2012 5:56:36 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: marktwain

The more that the entire story is laid out, and the various character flaws in the kid are laid out....you end up flipping the channel off. Zimmerman might have done something stupid in this thing...but this kid isn’t exactly as innocent as the media portrays him. You are left with Zimmerman acting like ninety-five percent of us.


6 posted on 07/08/2012 6:01:46 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: marktwain
Again the MSM are never interested in the number of crimes PREVENTED by armed citizens.

GZ prevented a MURDER through JUSTIFIED HOMICIDE with the proper application of the 2nd Amendment....

...which makes the Left furious!

7 posted on 07/08/2012 6:08:28 AM PDT by Happy Rain (With one horribly sick and wrong ruling, Traitor Roberts gave us a Soviet IRS.)
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To: marktwain


8 posted on 07/08/2012 6:10:06 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: pepsionice
The more that the entire story is laid out, and the various character flaws in the kid are laid out....you end up flipping the channel off. Zimmerman might have done something stupid in this thing...but this kid isn’t exactly as innocent as the media portrays him. You are left with Zimmerman acting like ninety-five percent of us.

Which demonstrates how little sway the "silent majority" have these days and indicates that we are likley doomed to subjagation despite being the overwhelming majority.

9 posted on 07/08/2012 6:13:55 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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To: marktwain

Is it time to dump Mark O’Mara???

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/07/08/the-hidden-agenda-exposed-mark-omara-on-bet-air-date-april-20th-730pm-videos/

The next thing on the agenda is preparation for a Stand Your Ground Hearing — but Mark O’Mara hates the SYG statute with a passion.

How much of the PayPal and passport fiasco was his fault??? He was the one who called SZ to the witness stand. Did he prepare her for the prosecution’s questions like a good attorney should have???

I heard him on television the other night whining that the state prosecutor hasn’t sent him a plea offer yet. What? He’s already throwing in the towel.

I have never in my life heard an attorney do more to bash his own client and his own client’s credibility in front of the media than Mark O’Mara.

He’s pathetic and he needs to go — NOW.


10 posted on 07/08/2012 6:13:58 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Theodore R.
I’m not sure Zimmerman has a chance with a FL jury.

I'm not sure he has a chance with that Florida lawyer that he has. Mark O'Mara is good friends with Natalie Jackson, B Crump, and a whold lot of people out for his blood. He came recommended by Mark Nejame who continues to report on his guilt. And MoM does not believe in Stand Your Ground laws and yet that hearing is next up.

The fix is in. Mark O'Mara needs to go.

11 posted on 07/08/2012 6:23:18 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: marktwain

“equal protection rights by profiling him” Those rights extend to the government, not to individuals acting on their own. He was a volunteer, not a police official or government lacky.


12 posted on 07/08/2012 6:23:23 AM PDT by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: Uncle Chip
"Is it time to dump Mark O’Mara???"

I was impressed with GZ's first set of lawyers, too bad he got some bad advice and went with O'Mara.

I hope O'Mara can stick to his duty to GZ, and use the Stand Your Ground law to best advantage.

13 posted on 07/08/2012 6:25:12 AM PDT by PreciousLiberty (Pray for America!!!)
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To: JoeProBono

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/07/08/the-hidden-agenda-exposed-mark-omara-on-bet-air-date-april-20th-730pm-videos/


14 posted on 07/08/2012 6:25:44 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

“state prosecutor hasn’t sent him a plea offer yet.”

Plea offer?....gfy. The only plea offer he should get is GZ case is dismissed if GZ promises not to sue for mor than a million to be paid by the individuals personally.


15 posted on 07/08/2012 6:27:53 AM PDT by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: marktwain
"Zimmerman, ....., shot Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old, after to end a scuffle fight with the drug addled, cage match trained, aggressive thug. "

Fixed.

16 posted on 07/08/2012 6:28:32 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: JoeProBono

Yeah, it’s too bad felons aren’t allowed to buy guns.


17 posted on 07/08/2012 6:31:27 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: pepsionice


18 posted on 07/08/2012 6:31:27 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: marktwain
"To Trayvon supporters, the fact that a half-white, half-Hispanic man went free after profiling Trayvon, an innocent black boy, as a criminal, chasing after him, and then shooting the unarmed boy reeked of racial inequality and even institutional racism."

A fairy tale.

19 posted on 07/08/2012 6:33:09 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: PreciousLiberty
I hope O'Mara can stick to his duty to GZ, and use the Stand Your Ground law to best advantage.

He can't. He doesn't have it in him. He has no sense of duty to his client.

Mark O'Mara hates the Stand Your Ground laws and is on record opposing them. So just how strong a defense will he provide in the upcoming SYG hearing.

The most important thing in the SYG hearing is the defendant's credibility, and yet here is his own lawyer MoM going on news shows admitting to his client's credibility problems. What kind of lawyer does that to his client???

What kind of lawyer puts his client on the witness stand in a bailbond hearing subjecting him to cross-examination without preparation??? What kind of lawyer enters a bailbond hearing without a readout from the Paypal account that he knows about and knows that everybody on planet earth knows about???

The blame for that first hearing should fall on his shoulders but he is running around bleming it on GZ and his wife.

And now he's whining that the state hasn't sent him a plea offer yet. When you are innocent and your lawyer has thrown in the towel, it is time for him to go.

Mark O'Mara has been an utter disaster and needs to go.

20 posted on 07/08/2012 6:40:40 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

O’Mara,by all appearances, really did screw the pooch on that bail deal.

And, I’m not sure it was smart to come right out begging for forgiveness for lying/misleading the court on funds either.


21 posted on 07/08/2012 6:48:23 AM PDT by moehoward
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To: marktwain
But in making an appeal for more funds, Mr. O’Mara also suggested on Friday that many Americans have given because they feel “this case is an affront to their constitutional rights,” namely the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

Bull$#*!

What kind of idiot defense attorney would make such a pejorative statement like that.

They are giving because they see an innocent man being railroaded by race hustlers and devious investigators, lawyers, prosecutors, judges and journalists manipulating the system to their own benefit -- and that includes you, Mr O'Mara.

22 posted on 07/08/2012 6:55:27 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

The highest military appeals court has upheld the conviction of Lt. Michael Behenna. The court upheld that as the “initial aggressor” he had lost his right to self-defense, even when being assaulted.
I wonder if similar logic will be applied to the Zimmerman case?


23 posted on 07/08/2012 6:58:52 AM PDT by Glenmore
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To: Mouton
Plea offer?..

I heard O'Mara the other night on television begging and whining like a stucked pig that the state prosecutor hasn't sent him a plea offer yet. He was asking over the aire where it was.

I couldn't believe it. This guy is a loser and needs to go -- NOW.

He will throw the SYG hearing on purpose by his own incompetency and inherent disdain for SYG laws themselves.

24 posted on 07/08/2012 7:00:31 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Glenmore

The UCMJ?
Can’t see how that would apply. Maybe in a jury nullification scenario, but there is no known proof GZ is the “initial aggressor” unless you call monitoring TM’s movements “aggressive”. In which case, it’s open season on every neighborhood watchmen, or nosey neighbor.


25 posted on 07/08/2012 7:08:09 AM PDT by moehoward
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To: moehoward
O’Mara,by all appearances, really did screw the pooch on that bail deal.

You bet he did. And yet he blames his client instead of himself.

He's the one who kept the passport in his briefcase for a month and made that into an issue. The entire Paypal fiasco should be laid at his feet. When SZ offered her BiL to testify, he should have stepped forward and asked him to come to the phone. He's their lawyer, for God's sake, not a potted plant.

What lawyer goes around saying that his client has credibility problems. Even if he does, it should not be his lawyer trumpeting them to the media and the world. He needs to go now before he does any more damage to GZ's credibility and the case.

26 posted on 07/08/2012 7:10:10 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: marktwain; All
While the Zimmerman/Martin ‘white’ on black killing is covered 24/7 on the MSM with an outpouring of rage and charges of a racial hate crime, where is the concern- where is the rage about the home invasion, torture, beating, rape and murder of the elderly white couple by a gang of feral blacks in Tulsa, Oklahoma just a months ago?

The 90 year old war veteran husband was beaten and his jaw broken. He was shot in the face numerous times with a BB gun and sent to the hospital in critical condition.

The 85 year old partially blind wife was RAPED and then BEATEN TO DEATH.

Can you just imagine the pain, the humiliation, the horror that dear old lady experienced being gang raped by that pack of feral animals?

(the autopsy states she was raped. Don’t think all of these animals didn’t all participate)

And can you imagine the pain, the horror of that dear old husband having to witness this?

Mr. Strait died from his injuries shortly after his wife.

There’s a lot more involved here than a home invasion and robbery.

WHERE ARE THE CHARGES OF A RACIAL HATE CRIME??

90 year old husband’s jaw broken and shot in face with a BB gun numerous times?

85 wife year old semi blind wife RAPED and BEATEN to death??

Why does it take a foreign press to enlighten America as to this henious crime?

WHERE IS THE NATIONAL OUTRAGE?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html

__________________________

Have they caught the rest of the gang of feral blacks who raped, tortured and murdered this elderly woman? Are they even looking? Not a word about it in the media.

27 posted on 07/08/2012 7:13:12 AM PDT by patriot08 (TEXAS GAL- born and bred and proud of it!)
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To: Glenmore
The court upheld that as the “initial aggressor” he had lost his right to self-defense, even when being assaulted.

In SYG laws the initial punch is not the final or most important determinant. Was there one side who escalated the fight or who had the other person down and at a disadvantage yet continued the fight. And fear of imminent injury or death at the time of the use of deadly force is probably most important and will be so in this case.

In this case the confrontation was initiated by TM per his friend DD, TM threw the first punch and only other punches per the forensic evidence, TM was on top of his victim hitting him MMA style per the witnesses, and by admission from BDLR at the 29th hearing, TM had his hands over the victim's mouth trying to keep him from yelling for help and from breathing in the process.

By any account, TM started the assault and continued it and intended to finish it with GZ's death. This should be a slam dunk but GZ's lawyer does not believe in SYG laws and appears situated to throw the SYG hearing.

28 posted on 07/08/2012 7:26:27 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Theodore R.

Actually, Zimmerman would get a favorable jury in Seminole County...unlike Sanford...it is not one big Black Racist ghetto. Seminole is mainly suburban, conservative, and GOP voting...he will get a fair jury here

Problem is that the Judge is corrupt (his wife was the prosecutor in Zimmerman’s spat with his ex) and did not recuse himself. The prosecutors are outside the district and WERE APPOINTED BY GOV RICK SCOTT AND AG PAM BONDI, BOTH GOP...cannot wait to primary them out in 2014. And, Zimmerman’s own attorney is an absolute joke

Zimmerman needs a new attorney, first and foremost. His current attorney trashes him in the media. He needs an attorney that will repeatedly attack Trayvon Martin, his family, and their handlers.

This is disgusting what is going on here. My only consolation is that this county has pretty sensible people that will serve on a jury...those Black Racist Ghetto Gang Bangers who want to riot and burn down their hell hole hoods do not sit on jurys here (they usually have to appear before a jury, not be part of one)


29 posted on 07/08/2012 7:28:10 AM PDT by SeminoleCounty (Romney has foreign assets.....Obama has foreign birth certifcates)
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To: Uncle Chip

“I have never in my life heard an attorney do more to bash his own client and his own client’s credibility in front of the media than Mark O’Mara.

He’s pathetic and he needs to go — NOW.”

APPLAUSE! YES! This guy has not been an advocate for his client at ALL! HE should have been gone weeks ago.


30 posted on 07/08/2012 7:28:17 AM PDT by battletank
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To: Paladin2
"To Trayvon supporters, the fact that a half-white, half-Hispanic man went free after profiling Trayvon, an innocent black boy, as a criminal, chasing after him, and then shooting the unarmed boy reeked of racial inequality and even institutional racism."

A fairy tale.

That is an unbelievable sentence. They have to ignore mounds of documented evidence to the contrary in order to continue to believe their fairy tale -- and yet they do. And worse yet, they sit on juries and vote.

31 posted on 07/08/2012 7:34:58 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: SeminoleCounty

This case reeks of being ‘fixed.’ GZ’s lawyers, prosecutors, judges, all seem to be motivated to sacrifice GZ to preserve ‘peace’ (& their political aspirations.) Unlikely he will be tried anywhere he can get a fair jury either.

And although it is not a UCMJ case like Behenna’s, I would still not be surprised to see similar logic applied. And will it be a self-defense case or a SYG case?


32 posted on 07/08/2012 7:37:51 AM PDT by Glenmore
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To: battletank

Watch the wink and the nod that Angela Corey and Mark O’Mara give each other in this touching moment in court:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/07/08/the-hidden-agenda-exposed-mark-omara-on-bet-air-date-april-20th-730pm-videos/


33 posted on 07/08/2012 7:46:20 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

Heh, heh, heh, they called him “boy”.


34 posted on 07/08/2012 7:47:21 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: SeminoleCounty
He needs an attorney that will repeatedly attack Trayvon Martin, his family, and their handlers.

You bet -- and subpoena those toxicology records, school records, juvenile records, Facebook pages, Twitter Tweets, and start those depositions of the Martin family, and Brandi Greene.

Let's put them all "under oath" and see how their credibility stands up under examination. They've lied from day one. Let's see how far they are willing to lie under oath.

35 posted on 07/08/2012 7:58:53 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Paladin2
".... boy ..."

LOL

It appears that the only "racial inequality" and "institutional racism" here comes from the keyboard of the author of that sentence.

36 posted on 07/08/2012 8:05:53 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

“subpoena those toxicology records, school records”

I bet such subpoena requests will be denied by the judge.


37 posted on 07/08/2012 8:14:01 AM PDT by Glenmore
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To: marktwain
There is nothing more disgusting to most Americans than seeing the media and the political and legal system conspire against them in favor of the criminal class in order to keep their own power and privileges.

That's why Zimmerman receives the donations he does: its a big "f--- you" to our corrupt media, politicians and judges.

38 posted on 07/08/2012 8:26:58 AM PDT by pierrem15 (Claudius: "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.")
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To: Glenmore
I bet such subpoena requests will be denied by the judge.

You're probably right.

However, the tox report is part of the autopsy and was supposed to have been turned over a week ago.

And I would pursue all those other records as it goes to "motive" and "mindset" as to why TM would fly off the handle, seemingly unprovoked, as he did.

If the judge will not allow them opened up, then I would submit news and investigative reports and depose the moms and dad and gf. One way or another, they would be in the court record.

39 posted on 07/08/2012 8:33:17 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Hulka
“To Trayvon supporters, THE FACT that a half-white, half-Hispanic man went free after profiling Trayvon, an innocent black boy, as a criminal, chasing after him, and then shooting the unarmed boy reeked of racial inequality and even institutional racism.”

I love how one person is an institution. I also love how they're trying to make it sound like a) profiling [statistics applied] is illegitimate for a private citizen AND b) that a citizen has the same accountability as "the system" [government; re: due process].

There's also a subtext here; that man was created in the image of government. The implications of that philosophy are truly frightening.

40 posted on 07/08/2012 8:34:01 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: marktwain

I like to see Zimmerman get off, not because he was carrying a gun and had to use it, but so he can sue all the MSM that created this show with their bias and provocative reporting.


41 posted on 07/08/2012 8:47:43 AM PDT by Bringbackthedraft ( WHO WE ELECT AS PRESIDENT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS WHO THEY APPOINT.)
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To: marktwain

“This whole thing rests on who threw the first punch.”

**********

Are people totally without common sense nowadays? Nobody with a hidden gun would initiate a fist fight and thereby risk getting put into a position where he could not use his gun.


42 posted on 07/08/2012 8:56:31 AM PDT by Socon-Econ (Socon-Econ)
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To: marktwain

Kind of makes me hope that a criminal type druggie makes Lester and his family a target and then let’s see him try and proclaim his attacker an innocent.


43 posted on 07/08/2012 9:05:20 AM PDT by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like it)
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To: Socon-Econ
Are people totally without common sense nowadays? Nobody with a hidden gun would initiate a fist fight and thereby risk getting put into a position where he could not use his gun.

So very true.

And how could a 5'7.5" short obese 28 y/o office worker possibly chase down a 6'2" tall lean 17 y/o street fighter who has a 20 second head start on him and was only 100 yards from home to start with???

If you listen to the 911 tape, GZ was out of breath and hardly able to talk after running for a mere 15 seconds.

44 posted on 07/08/2012 9:24:17 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

Oh yes. I’m a Treeper as well as a Freeper and I am appalled with what is going on with this case!!


45 posted on 07/08/2012 7:19:09 PM PDT by battletank
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To: battletank; marktwain
The most appalling of all. Note this from the Order to Set Bail by Judge Lester:

"Notably, at the initial bond hearing, this court had only limited evidence; to that point, the State showed that the Defendant had shot and killed Trayvon Martin."1

And now the footnote from Judge Lester:

1 "This is undisputed. The Defendant apologized on the record for shooting and killing Martin."

What?????

Thank You Mark O'Mara for putting your client on the witness stand to apologize "on the record". You gave the State that one undisputed fact that Judge Lester cited as outweighing all others and subjected your client to needless cross-examination. Did you really think an apology "on the record" would calm the madding crowd???

Instead by doing so Mark O'Mara delivered his client's head on a platter and "on the record".

He's got to go before he does any more damage. GZ had better wake up to this quickly.

46 posted on 07/09/2012 4:45:23 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

Here’s partial transcript per AP:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/20/excerpts-from-zimmerman-apology-testimony/

which opened up opportunity for Crump:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-tells-trayvon-martins-parents/story?id=16177849


47 posted on 07/09/2012 6:52:50 AM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus

Thanks. Add that to this from the conservative treehouse:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2904366/posts?page=6#6


48 posted on 07/09/2012 7:06:22 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

Today is the first time I saw the testimony. Those words you emphasized are the ones that caught my attention. O’Mara allowed Zimmerman’s actions to labeled as a crime in court without an objection.

I get the impression that George is a very naive and trusting soul who needs someone to inform hum of the realities of politically correct justice and legal repesentation.


49 posted on 07/09/2012 8:08:27 AM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus
Those words you emphasized are the ones that caught my attention. O’Mara allowed Zimmerman’s actions to labeled as a crime in court without an objection.

Yep. Where was he??? Sleeping??? What was the purpose of allowing his client to take the stand for an apology in the first place??? Did he think they were going to accept it and say all is forgiven and let's all shake hands and go home???

And amazingly the same thing that happened at the April 20th hearing was about to happen again at the June 29th hearing. Mark O'Mara was all set to put his client on the stand again for another apology that would only be taken by the Court as an admission of the commission of a crime.

He needs a defense attorney not someone surreptitiously working for the State. Mark O'Mara needs to go or GZ is toast.

50 posted on 07/09/2012 8:26:45 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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