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America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers
Fox News ^ | 7-12-12 | Arthur Herman

Posted on 07/12/2012 3:03:02 PM PDT by dynachrome

“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”

Those were Abe Lincoln’s words in his first inaugural in 1861, as America was running headlong into civil war. Now we’re a house divided again and another civil war is coming, with the 2012 election as its Gettysburg.

Call it America’s coming civil war between the Makers and the Takers.

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

On the other are the public employee unions; left-leaning intelligentsia who see the growth of government as index of progress; and the millions of Americans now dependent on government through a growing network of government transfer payments, from Medicaid and Social Security to college loans and corporate bailouts and handouts (think GM and Solyndra).

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cw2; cwii; cwiiping; dependency; makers; takers
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Interesting that Fox News is using a headline like this.
1 posted on 07/12/2012 3:03:08 PM PDT by dynachrome
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To: Travis McGee

cw2 ping?


2 posted on 07/12/2012 3:03:56 PM PDT by dynachrome ("Our forefathers didn't bury their guns. They buried those that tried to take them.")
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To: dynachrome

I’ll bet the UN didn’t have multiple nations flying over the “unruly population” back in the 1860s like they do now.

This pResident has already taken at least one state (Arizona) and made a complaint about that US State to the United Nations.

Under Bush we were at least allowed to build our own wall even without federal support.

Under Obama I can easily see a scenario where Russian and Chinese jets do fly overs under the UN Flag to keep the “enemy within” under control.

This is a different day than our ancestors have ever seen and a different America than it was just 5 years ago.

Under this pResident and the UN - “No Fly Zones” have been redefined as “Carpet Bombing”.


3 posted on 07/12/2012 3:06:30 PM PDT by tsowellfan (http://www.cafenetamerica.com/)
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To: dynachrome

4 posted on 07/12/2012 3:06:50 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: dynachrome

Not Gettysburg. Fort Sumter.


5 posted on 07/12/2012 3:08:43 PM PDT by Publius (Leadershiup starts with getting off the couch.)
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To: dynachrome; All

i’ve stated this on Freep in the past and have told many in political discussions the past three years; the coming civil war will not be between the haves and have nots rather those that do and those that don’t...

those that do take responsibility for themselves, those that do live within thier means, those that do pay their taxes, mortgages, bills on time and those that do sacrifice to make ends meet...

versus those that don’t and rely on those that do to pay their bills...

i am sick and effing tired of paying for everyone else...


6 posted on 07/12/2012 3:09:19 PM PDT by God luvs America (63.5million pay no federal income tax then vote demoKrat)
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To: tsowellfan

Most likely both China and Russia will simply butt out.


7 posted on 07/12/2012 3:10:35 PM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: dynachrome

When a dog and his fleas vote on whether or not to continue their relationship, nobody wonders how the vote goes.


8 posted on 07/12/2012 3:10:59 PM PDT by MarineBrat (Better dead than red!)
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To: dynachrome

So Social Security recipients, who have been real producers all their life are now labeled takers? If that’s the best that they can come up with, we are sunk.


9 posted on 07/12/2012 3:11:36 PM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: dynachrome
Move the entire 'soon to be 100% unionized' health care industry over to the 'takers' column. Soon we'll be referring to 'teachers, police, fire, nurses and doctors".. The main purpose of Obamacare is to add more soldiers to 0bama's 'national civilian security force'. WHAT THE HELL ELSE COULD HE HAVE MEANT WHEN HE SAID THIS?
10 posted on 07/12/2012 3:11:55 PM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: dynachrome

It’s a fair article. I believe though that it’s message of warning has come to late. It’s no longer a matter of ‘if’, it’s now ‘when’. And I am so damn sad to have to say that.


11 posted on 07/12/2012 3:13:23 PM PDT by The Working Man
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To: Biggirl
Most likely both China and Russia will simply butt out.

I'm talking about UN fly overs at the request of the "American" pResident.

Just want to make that clear.

12 posted on 07/12/2012 3:13:52 PM PDT by tsowellfan (http://www.cafenetamerica.com/)
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To: dynachrome

Government is an expression of culture.

Like the days before the Civil War, when the country was strongly divided between two cultures, the country now is strongly divided between a culture of traditional family structure, hard work, self-reliance and private and faith-based charity on the one hand and on the other hand, cultural Marxism.

Cultural Marxism has the upper hand in influence because of its dominance in entertainment, mainstream media, universities and public schools.

Even if traditionalists were to capture the government, it won’t mean much in the long term unless traditional culture can find a space to flourish without the domination of cultural Marxism.

And in the long run, cultural Marxism must lead to a police state because only traditional culture sustains the conditions for a free society.


13 posted on 07/12/2012 3:14:05 PM PDT by Meet the New Boss
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To: dynachrome

Heck....All this time I’ve been arming myself to shoot zombies....

Shooting Progessives wouldn’t be any fun...they would whine, complain, get a trial lawyer involved...Sigh....

How about we just vote these b*sturds out?


14 posted on 07/12/2012 3:14:14 PM PDT by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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To: tsowellfan

I believe most likely other countries will simply not get involved, “that’s America’s problem” in other words.


15 posted on 07/12/2012 3:16:50 PM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: dynachrome; All

Our Civil War resulted in the origin of the Jack-Boot Central Government that we have now.

Article V State Constitutional Conventions is a much better way to go.

It will take 32 States to hold and approve the terms, or we could just split up into Multi-State Regions.

One Region might be the States that the XL Pipeline will eventually run through, for example.

War bad, State Constitutional Conventions good.

Let the people vote with their feet to find the Liberty or Federal Slavery that they want.

Our ancestors did it when they left Europe, and now that Obamanation is now Europelite, it is time to vote with our feet inside what was once The United States of America.


16 posted on 07/12/2012 3:18:25 PM PDT by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: dynachrome

If the history of nations is our guide, the “takers” always win.


17 posted on 07/12/2012 3:19:13 PM PDT by zeestephen
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
So Social Security recipients, who have been real producers all their life are now labeled takers?

If that's the way they think, they'll be wasting a great resource.

18 posted on 07/12/2012 3:19:43 PM PDT by Roccus
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To: dynachrome

The "takers" are mostly those getting Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid payments. Good luck "Makers" trying to see those cut.

19 posted on 07/12/2012 3:23:01 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
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To: Colonel Kangaroo

They have lumped Social Security recipients in with those programs where there is no required pay in. That is wrong.


20 posted on 07/12/2012 3:25:19 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: MarineBrat

“When a dog and his fleas vote on whether or not to continue their relationship, nobody wonders how the vote goes.”

THAT is a keeper!!!


21 posted on 07/12/2012 3:27:54 PM PDT by misanthrope ("...Everybody look what's goin' down.")
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To: Graewoulf

I’ve seen proposed maps of ‘multi-state’ regions; some quite interesting. One liberal multi-state region I would kick to the curb would be the area east of Interstate 81 and north of Interstate 64...another would be ‘Cascadia’...everything west of Interstate 5 on the west coast. How would you link these two regions; if at all?


22 posted on 07/12/2012 3:28:05 PM PDT by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: Graewoulf
That’s 34 states, not 32.

If you go to this site, there is a PDF you can download that covers what the author has divined about an Amendments Convention called by the authority of the states under Article V, specifically the rules under which it would operate.

About 90% of the document is correct. The 10% that is wrong comes from making unwarranted assumptions based on how the Constitutional Convention of 1787 was called and how it operated. These assumptions are wrong because the original Convention was conducted under the rules of the Articles of Confederation, not the Constitution. The author also failed to read the American Bar Association's seminal 1973 document exploring how such a convention would work, how its members would be chosen, and how its purview would be limited by the state legislatures. Still, 90% isn't bad, and it's a good document to work with. I recommend it.

23 posted on 07/12/2012 3:31:10 PM PDT by Publius (Leadershiup starts with getting off the couch.)
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To: who knows what evil?
everything west of Interstate 5 on the west coast

That would put most of the Puget Sound area other than a few blocks of downtown Seattle in the "not liberal" area. Demarcation should extend about 25 miles east of I-5.

24 posted on 07/12/2012 3:32:41 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: dynachrome

I see the problem being, the makers keep making and some are even voting for the takers to take. Until the makers get fed up, stop making and start really fighting, things aren’t going to change. It may already be too late.


25 posted on 07/12/2012 3:34:32 PM PDT by stevio (God, guns, guts.)
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To: dynachrome

Wow! Never thought I’d see that article - even on FOX!


26 posted on 07/12/2012 3:35:09 PM PDT by LucianOfSamasota (Tanstaafl - its not just for breakfast anymore...)
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To: tsowellfan
"Under Obama I can easily see a scenario where Russian and Chinese jets do fly overs under the UN Flag to keep the “enemy within” under control."

Actually, if there were a Civil War, I highly doubt that Russia and China would bother (with some caveats).
Russia is already concerned with it's border with China. Another Civil War in the US would see the pullback of US military assets from around the globe. Nature abhors a vacuum, and in the Far East, Japan, the Philipines, Vietnam, India and possibly Australia would eventually see serious turmoil with a China that flexes its muscles.
Europe would have much to worry about with a Russian bear who decides it's springtime and decides to go foraging on its western border.
The Middle East? Well, there's not too much to say there. They'll go about happily blowing each other up like they have for thousands of years.

The caveats:
A protracted civil war in the US would eventually grow perceptions of a weakened country, and THEN you would possibly see certain parties interested in taking a bite of the apple. I do think the "takers", as it were, would be the ones to allow a foreign force into the US at that point, because in a protracted civil war the power base of the takers (cities) would be decimated.

Then there is desperation and all those pesky nukes....

27 posted on 07/12/2012 3:37:24 PM PDT by Tench_Coxe
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To: Biggirl; tsowellfan

>Most likely both China and Russia will simply butt out.

***

Most likely, when the “civil war” starts ...

1) China will attack Taiwan
2) we send carrier groups
3) Russia invades from the North
4) Cuba invades Florida
5) Mexico/Venezuela invades from Mexico

... etc, etc, etc.

Civil war will INVITE invasion. Russia/China/etc would be fools not to attack at that moment.

They are not fools.


28 posted on 07/12/2012 3:42:07 PM PDT by ROTB (Live holy, forgive all & pray in Jesus' name. Trust He is willing & able & eager to ANSWER BIG!)
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To: dynachrome
Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad. The public sector has been the engine of entitlement, stagnation, and decline -- and gave us Detroit and the South Bronx.

Maybe a little simplistic. You have growing sectors of the economy and declining ones. Government gets involved in the declining sectors and makes things worse. That's true, but at any given moment some parts of the economy are going to stride forward and others are going to fall behind. A complex relationship between declining industries and intrusive government went into creating the problems he describes.

29 posted on 07/12/2012 3:45:00 PM PDT by x
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To: who knows what evil?; steve86; Graewoulf

An interesting idea is the “American Redoubt” in Idaho, parts of Washington state, etc.

http://www.survivalblog.com/redoubt.html


30 posted on 07/12/2012 3:52:24 PM PDT by dynachrome ("Our forefathers didn't bury their guns. They buried those that tried to take them.")
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To: ROTB

Anyone on FR who postulates that Cuba would invade Florida had best tell us right upfront where Cuba will bury about a million of their own dead.

Cuba would simply cease to exist in that event, and we don’t need any help at all from the Federal Government.

Take that to the bank. - despite what you might have read in the MSM, Cubans are piss poor soldiers.


31 posted on 07/12/2012 3:57:19 PM PDT by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: dynachrome

Makers v the takers.

The Urbs v the Burbs.

The urban zone v everyone else.


32 posted on 07/12/2012 4:00:29 PM PDT by lurk
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To: KantianBurke

I believe the Death Panels are the (unspoken) solution to the SS and Medicare funding problem.
Dropping life expectancy significantly makes a HUGE difference.


33 posted on 07/12/2012 4:05:45 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: dynachrome

The SINGLE easiest thing to do to correct the imbalance between takers and givers is to simply let the Bush Tax Cuts expire. Overnight, you’ll have something like 20,000,000 new taxpayers, and, at least, another 20,000,000 that pay next to nothing will see REAL tax bills.

It also doesn’t hurt to start taxing ourselves a bit closer to the level of services that we demand (yes, including FReepers when you talk SS and Medicare). So it’s a win all around.

...of course the Dems won’t let that happen, and the Republicans will be TOO SCARED to call their bluff - so we’ll wind up extending the tax cuts for the deadbeats, just as Obama wants.


34 posted on 07/12/2012 4:09:48 PM PDT by BobL
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To: steve86

Such a broad-based proposal would have to allow for some ‘tweaking’... :-)


35 posted on 07/12/2012 4:26:10 PM PDT by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: BobL

What in the Bush tax cuts took 20 million people off the tax rolls?


36 posted on 07/12/2012 4:32:36 PM PDT by tbw2
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To: KantianBurke

It has to stop. There is no money.


37 posted on 07/12/2012 4:34:13 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: bill1952

>Cubans are piss poor soldiers

1) Not when they attack with God’s blessing
2) It’s the sin of Christians (abortion, divorce, adultery, not witnessing, porn, lukewarmness, ...) who would bring such an invasion


38 posted on 07/12/2012 4:37:11 PM PDT by ROTB (Live holy, forgive all & pray in Jesus' name. Trust He is willing & able & eager to ANSWER BIG!)
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To: KantianBurke

39 posted on 07/12/2012 4:42:17 PM PDT by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: Colonel Kangaroo
So Social Security recipients, who have been real producers all their life are now labeled takers?

And herein lies the problem. Even Freepers think that 20+ years of social security is their due “because they paid in” their entire working career. Yes you paid in, and Yes you are due. BUT, you are due what you paid and all accumulated interest. Once you calculate that out you will get social security payments for about two years. After that you are getting other peoples money just like a welfare recipient. If we can't convince our own, how do we convince anyone else?

40 posted on 07/12/2012 4:45:53 PM PDT by mistfree (You're responsible for your spelling of Yore)
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To: dynachrome; Eaker; Absolutely Nobama; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; An Old Man; APatientMan; ...
You betcha!

CW2 Ping


41 posted on 07/12/2012 4:47:37 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: nevergore
Heck....All this time I’ve been arming myself to shoot zombies....

Shooting Progessives wouldn’t be any fun...they would whine, complain, get a trial lawyer involved...Sigh....

The "Zombieland Rules" would work just as well against Commies. Especially the one about the Double-Tap. The trial lawyer would just be another target (but to be sporting about it, remember, no hunting within 100 yards of Porsche dealerships or baiting said lawyers with signs that read "Free Scotch").

42 posted on 07/12/2012 4:49:36 PM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: KantianBurke

“Good luck “Makers” trying to see those cut.”

We can deal with our debt and entitlement programs sanely, rationally, or someday they will go to zero overnight.

That is a mathematical guarantee.


43 posted on 07/12/2012 4:50:05 PM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Anti-Bubba182
They have lumped Social Security recipients in with those programs where there is no required pay in. That is wrong.

AGREED!!

And look at which program has been the most even in size.

44 posted on 07/12/2012 4:51:07 PM PDT by upchuck (FACEBOOK... Share pointless stuff with friends you don't know. Beg for intrusion into your life.)
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To: tbw2

“What in the Bush tax cuts took 20 million people off the tax rolls?”

That’s the problem, people think it was just a “tax cut for the rich”. It wasn’t. All rates went down, even the lowest. So, for starters, people in the lowest bracket see a 50% increase in their taxes (from 10% to 15%). Most of these people also qualify for the EIC, so they end up being paid by the government to file. Well, that will change for millions of them - they will become net tax payers (finally).

Other things that directly affect whether certain lower income people pay taxes is the marriage penalty (comes back and hits the two lowest bracket) and, related to that, is the standard deduction for married, filing jointly - it goes down.

That’s my first cut at it - I’d LOVE to see these tax cuts end, and I’d LOVE to see the Democrats explain to the poor why they are now taxpayers - once they lost the protection of the Bush tax cuts. I’m sick of his tax cuts getting a bad rep.


45 posted on 07/12/2012 4:54:22 PM PDT by BobL
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To: Travis McGee
UP!
46 posted on 07/12/2012 4:56:42 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: mistfree
And herein lies the problem. Even Freepers think that 20+ years of social security is their due “because they paid in” their entire working career.

What about those that only served 20 years in the Military and get expect retirement benefits for the rest of their lives?

47 posted on 07/12/2012 5:02:51 PM PDT by Doe Eyes
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To: Charles Martel

I disagree....Zombieland rules would not apply to Progressives....a double tap to the head would have no effect since they have no brain.....

Also, after years of progressive social programs, it is also apparent they have no heart.....

I guess just shoot them in the “privates so they can’t reproduce....they will eventually die out after a generation....


48 posted on 07/12/2012 5:08:01 PM PDT by nevergore ("It could be that the purpose of my life is simply to serve as a warning to others.")
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To: Biggirl

Why would Russia and China get involved when they can watch with glee from the sidelines?


49 posted on 07/12/2012 5:14:05 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (The First Bystander must be removed!)
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To: Doe Eyes

A lot of folks are going to be disappointed to learn that the math just doesn’t work out. A lot of folks are going to be very pissed off. Factor this in. It’s part of any prudent calculation: the cutting off of public sector pensions, and millions of pissed off people.


50 posted on 07/12/2012 5:16:24 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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