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Oregon criminalizes permaculture; claims state ownership over all rainwater
http://www.naturalnews.com/036615_Oregon_rainwater_permaculture.html ^

Posted on 08/01/2012 5:54:54 AM PDT by dontreadthis

Jackson County, Oregon says it owns YOUR rainwater, and the county has sentenced a man to 30 days in jail and fined him over $1500, for the supposed "crime" of collecting rainwater on his own property.

The man's name is Gary Harrington, and he owns over 170 acres of land in Jackson County. On that land, he has three ponds, and those ponds collect rainwater that falls on his land. Common sense would say Gary has every right to have ponds with water on his 170 acres of land, but common sense has been all but abandoned in the state of Oregon.

(Excerpt) Read more at naturalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: 2012; govtabuse; liberalfascism; rapeofliberty; sourcetitlenoturl; tyranny
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You didn't build that
1 posted on 08/01/2012 5:55:00 AM PDT by dontreadthis
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To: dontreadthis
Harrington interview
http://soundcloud.com/thelarslarsonshow/gary-harrington-is-prepared-to


2 posted on 08/01/2012 6:00:34 AM PDT by preacher (Communism has only killed 100 million people: Let's give it another chance!)
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To: dontreadthis

First they came for my rain barrel, then my cloth line, then my sawdust toilet,and finally they came for me.

Power hungry control Freaks!


3 posted on 08/01/2012 6:03:42 AM PDT by Leep
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To: dontreadthis

Do I recall correctly, that he was also diverting river water to his ponds?


4 posted on 08/01/2012 6:15:04 AM PDT by Spirit of Liberty (If you build it, Obama wants credit!)
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To: dontreadthis

The truth about this issue was posted here earlier in the week. This guy was diverting the river into the ponds, not just rainwater.


5 posted on 08/01/2012 6:16:00 AM PDT by Portcall24
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To: dontreadthis

This country is becoming worse than the USSR.


6 posted on 08/01/2012 6:16:25 AM PDT by chessplayer
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To: Spirit of Liberty

“Do I recall correctly, that he was also diverting river water to his ponds?”

I understand that they were trying to make the claim that as soon as the water hit the ground it was part of a tributary and then subject to their regs.


7 posted on 08/01/2012 6:22:48 AM PDT by READINABLUESTATE ("We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." - Franklin)
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To: dontreadthis

Government is not by its nature on the side of the people, and the bigger it gets, the more it opposes individual freedom.


8 posted on 08/01/2012 6:24:55 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: dontreadthis

This is far bigger than Oregon. Both Colorado and Utah have similar restrictions, although Colorado decided to permit some rain barrels in 2009. I’m sure there are numerous other states that have water rights laws that are convoluted for political advantage. Water is life, money and votes. Politicians know that they can slip this kind of legislation under the radar and insure some power over their opponents.


9 posted on 08/01/2012 6:26:14 AM PDT by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: chessplayer

Yes— we have hordes of bureaucrats progressively regulating every last aspect of commerce and behavior.

Eventually we’ll be told how many children we can have and how many sheets of toilet paper we can use each month.

“It’s all for the good of the collective, comrade!”


10 posted on 08/01/2012 6:26:35 AM PDT by Max in Utah (A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within.)
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To: dontreadthis

If I lived in Oregon, I bottle up some piss and send it to every member of the legislature (politburo).


11 posted on 08/01/2012 6:31:36 AM PDT by The Sons of Liberty ("Get that evil, foreign, muslim, usurping bastard out of MY White House!" FUBO GTFO!)
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To: dontreadthis

F-nggovernment at it again. Time to throw all these econazis out. Government owns rainwater, give me a break. Since they claimed ownership of the air there is no stopping them.


12 posted on 08/01/2012 6:35:33 AM PDT by JayAr36 (Government is a parasite, sucking the lifeblood out of America.)
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To: Portcall24

As I read it (and no doubt my info is incomplete) but the OR govt’s position is that every little transient rivulet in every little gully or topogrphic wrinkle that comes from a downpour or snowmelt is a “tributary”.


13 posted on 08/01/2012 6:49:03 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Cui bono?)
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To: dontreadthis
Just another case of application of Western Water Rights Law ~ this is the way water rights are handled IN ALL arid and semi-arid regions WORLDWIDE since the beginning of time!

Where there is ample rainfall, there's a different system used to regulate "diversion" of water.

14 posted on 08/01/2012 6:52:19 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Leep

If the State owns the rainwater then the State darn well better keep it off of my property! Their rain water has ruined my hay crops, flooded my basement, muddied my fields and barnyard, eroded my soil and drowned out my pastures.

Yes, I own water rights from the river, but since the State owns the rainwater, I demand that they keep their dang water in the river where it belongs - and I will put it on my fields (according to my permit rights) when I want it there!

Seems like the State could be sued for trespass - just like I can be sued if my cows get out and destroy my neighbors’ crops.


15 posted on 08/01/2012 6:53:08 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: Mrs. Don-o

And if he let the ponds dry up, the Feds would be after him for destroying Wet Lands.


16 posted on 08/01/2012 6:53:32 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: dontreadthis

Communist bastards!!!


17 posted on 08/01/2012 6:55:23 AM PDT by ontap
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To: Steamburg; dontreadthis
There are two water rights doctrines used in the US: Riparian water rights and prior appropriation water rights.

The eastern wet zone states use Riparian and the interior western dry zone states use Prior Appropriation.

Those states that straddle the wet dry lines use a dual doctrine of riparian and prior appropriation.

The 98th meridian is the eastern wet/dry line so those state that straddle use the dual doctrine and include TX, OK, KS, etc.

The western wet dry line is the Cascades/Sierra Nevada so CA, WA , and OR use the dual doctrine.

This article is mis-info. The state doesn't own the water although a state can own water rights. The state administers the water rights.

The guy in this article is taking someone else's prior appropriation water right and it is the state's job to prevent him. So, under the use it or lose it clause, if this guy successfully uses the water, that would prevent the actual owner(s) from using the water they would lose the water right.

18 posted on 08/01/2012 6:55:23 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: chessplayer
The old USSR violated the ancient traditions of how water may be diverted over near the Aral Sea.

They were told by just everybody who also controls an arid or semi-arid region that their practice would turn the Aral Sea into a desert and change the climate for a thousand miles around.

Well, today the Aral Sea is a desert and so is much previously useful grazing land.

Read all about it. This guy was doing what the Soviets did that killed the Aral Sea!

19 posted on 08/01/2012 6:55:37 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Portcall24

I think the State was accusing him of diverting water from his property from flowing into the creek, not that he was diverting water running across his property that came from a source upstream of his property.


20 posted on 08/01/2012 7:01:13 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Ben Ficklin
The guy in this article is taking someone else's prior appropriation water right and it is the state's job to prevent him. So, under the use it or lose it clause, if this guy successfully uses the water, that would prevent the actual owner(s) from using the water they would lose the water right.

This is bumbo jumbo horseshit....he dug a hole on his property a it rained in the hole. The government does not own everything it declares it owns. This is the end result of environmental Nazism!! This is happening in Oregon because of the sheep that live there and elect these idiot's!!

21 posted on 08/01/2012 7:02:52 AM PDT by ontap
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To: Pollster1
Hydraulic Tyrannies are the worst sort ~ not only does agriculture take place if and only if there is irrigation in place, if you screw up and cross swords with the guys who run the irrigation system, they just cut you off and you die.

The alternative to an hydraulic tyranny is to RELOCATE to somewhere else where it rains.

Ancient Hydraulic Tyrannies occurred along the Euphrates, Nile, Indus, Ganges, Huang Ho, Yangtze, etc. and around the lake in which ancient Mexico city nestled (for example).

It's fairly certain the leaders in Terre Haute were well on their way to the same political system inasmuch as they'd figured out how to build large fish lagoons and pens to thereby augment the protein needs of the community. The earthen dams that made the fish lagoons possible are still there ~ there are some in/near Evansville, Indiana and probably around and or near Cahokia (more digging needed to find the soil changes that accompany fish pens though).

The United States, in the aggregate, is able to avoid becoming an hydraulic tyranny simply because people are free to move, and they also vote. That does not mean you can just willy nilly divert water to your own personal use in arid and semi-arid regions. What happens if you allow that sort of behavior is a single individual becomes the tyrant with the power of life and death over his neighbors.

Where it rains sufficiently this is not a real risk. Where it doesn't rain sufficiently that risk is there all the time.

22 posted on 08/01/2012 7:04:53 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Paladin2

It’s the same term ~ used both situations. Where it rains a lot you’d be diverting just that stream. Where it doesn’t rain a lot you’d be diverting part of the total flow of water in that region.


23 posted on 08/01/2012 7:07:16 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: GilesB

Put a collar on the rain, and maybe you got a case eh!


24 posted on 08/01/2012 7:08:50 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: dontreadthis

He needs to sue the state for the costs of having to deal with their rainwater on his property.

seriously...King George III made the mistake of presuming every tree on the Atlantic coast was his, for the Royal Navy.


25 posted on 08/01/2012 7:10:43 AM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: dontreadthis

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2911470/posts Earlier thread ~ all the same stuff ~ more discussion.


26 posted on 08/01/2012 7:15:08 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Its not western water rights law, it goes back farther in history than than, its called Tyrany.

Nobody “owns” rain, or air.


27 posted on 08/01/2012 7:16:36 AM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: ontap
Some of the water rights in the west go back centuries and were put in place by the Spaniards.

The underlying economic and political power of the Mormons in Utah flow from the fact that they prior appropriated large amounts water there.

First in time, first in right.

28 posted on 08/01/2012 7:19:03 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: muawiyah

Oregon is not Arid. Note even semi-arid, more like sopping wet drying down to humid.


29 posted on 08/01/2012 7:19:18 AM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: mo
The big dude in the old days in this area was THE KING OF SPAIN, who had also been the KING OF ENGLAND while he was married to Queen Mary (Bloody Mary).

During his reign Philip I/II of Spain had clearly set forth what the water rights laws were for each zone and region in the Spanish empire.

There are latin names for these zones BTW, but I don't happen to know them right off hand. But this stuff is in The Law Of The Indies if you wondered.

His son, Philip II/III, is the guy who decided to DIVIDE North America up among various European powers for purposes of development. Oregon was retained by Spain until the boundary with Russian North America could be determined ~ would it be 54/40, or further Souf ~ or maybe even at San Fran Bay eh!

Good thing for the Oregonians here that they eventually found an inlet along the Inland Passage to the North at about what is now the Southern boundary of Alaska. That pretty much cancelled the Russian claim to San Fran ~ and you know, of course, the history of Fort Ross, right?

What that also did was extend the customary water rights found in Arid and Semi-Arid lands to all of Oregon! Also to British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Northern California!

So, let's just say, Spain Did It ~ and it's been that way a very long time. Eventually the US purchased the territory, respected a handful of landgrants, and began selling it off ~ with Western Water Rights law in place ~ and there you have it.

Guy hasn't got a leg to stand on.

30 posted on 08/01/2012 7:22:57 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: American in Israel
In Oregon, the gub'mnt owns the water rights ~ and it's always been that way as long as it was the property of the United States, which all of it was. Before that it was the property of France, in part, and earlier, of Spain and Russia.

This guy has a choice ~ he can get his permits like everybody else, or move. It's not a tyranny.

31 posted on 08/01/2012 7:25:15 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Ben Ficklin

Oh well if the Spaniards did it that settles it. What a croc..this isn’t about water rights ...it’s about government tyranny! The government takes the rights that sheep allow. If I take a walk in the mud and the water from the next storm is trapped in my footprints am I guilty of stealing the states water!!


32 posted on 08/01/2012 7:27:44 AM PDT by ontap
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To: muawiyah
The article says he did get his permits and they reneged on them after he had dug the tanks. Think there might be some politicking here?
33 posted on 08/01/2012 7:31:53 AM PDT by ontap
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To: American in Israel

The Eastern part of Oregon lies in a “rain shadow” created by the mountains in the Western part. It’s an arid region.http://www.google.com/imgres?q=oregon+semi-arid+region&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=960&bih=503&tbm=isch&tbnid=Ia7N9fHdeURlwM:&imgrefurl=http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/recharge-variability-in-semi-arid-climates-26169682&docid=gmbf4GgVoeWVdM&imgurl=http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/ne0000/ne0000/ne0000/ne0000/26173189/1_2.jpg&w=626&h=450&ei=aT0ZUPj3BKSA6QGm7oHQAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=290&vpy=2&dur=2811&hovh=190&hovw=265&tx=113&ty=69&sig=115378194030298171099&page=1&tbnh=134&tbnw=187&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:91


34 posted on 08/01/2012 7:31:56 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ontap

This is surface water. It gets really complicated when you start talking about underground water.


35 posted on 08/01/2012 7:34:43 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: muawiyah
"It's not a tyranny. "

It's apparently a tyranny going all the way back to the initial application of European hegemony at the beginning of honkie exploration of the Americas.

36 posted on 08/01/2012 7:36:27 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Paladin2

Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense of why he is so upset and he does have a complaint under those circumstances. If a man wants to build a berm the entire length of his boundary with the creek/river he should be allowed to. Otherwise he should sue the County for letting the rain fall on his property to begin with. After all, if they claim the rain they should keep it off of his property!


37 posted on 08/01/2012 7:40:06 AM PDT by Portcall24
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To: ontap
The water rights previously established by law were retained by the US government when Oregon was unorganized territory. The US government sold various surface rights to farmers, traders, trappers ~ and passed on the control of water rights to the STATE when it was created.

In Eastern states as they were organized title to all the wildlife on the land was retained by the state governments and made available to the people. That's why in the newer Eastern states you can usually hunt on anyone's property, unless prohibited by another law (which will require no hunting posting), but in the older Eastern states you can't hunt anywhere unless you have explicit permission.

BTW, any property title lawyer will run the rights of ownership all the way back to the King of Spain if you want ~ and they don't go further than that.

Constitutionally here in Virginia all of us own the wild deer, squirrels and rabbits ~ but we can only go on someone's land to hunt with the owner's permission. In Indiana I not only owned all those animals, even the property owner couldn't take them all ~ or clear them out. BTW, it's always a courtesy to let a landowner know you are hunting on his land.

38 posted on 08/01/2012 7:40:14 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Paladin2
The question of who has a right to the water extends back much further than your relatives arriving and upsetting the rightful owners. They had their own water rights laws and customs.

Everybody on Earth follows some sort of standard ~ in the United States we follow BOTH the big ones. That's cause were' HUGE.

39 posted on 08/01/2012 7:42:37 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: dontreadthis

Permaculture >>> to a large extent means edible landscaping. Meaning fewer ornamentals and more food plants on your property. Such as fruit and nut trees and vegetable garden. Maybe chickens and bees. Lots of freepers practice this on their property and so do I

I have friends who capture rainwater off their roof into barrels. They water their plants and trees with rainwater which they prefer to city water plus it is free


40 posted on 08/01/2012 7:43:40 AM PDT by dennisw (Government be yo mamma - Re-elect Barack Obama)
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To: dontreadthis

Permaculture >>> to a large extent means edible landscaping. Meaning fewer ornamentals and more food plants on your property. Such as fruit and nut trees and vegetable garden. Maybe chickens and bees. Lots of freepers practice this on their property and so do I

I have friends who capture rainwater off their roof into barrels. They water their plants and trees with rainwater which they prefer to city water plus it is free


41 posted on 08/01/2012 7:44:10 AM PDT by dennisw (Government be yo mamma - Re-elect Barack Obama)
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To: muawiyah

Thanks for the brief history lesson!!that was excellent!


42 posted on 08/01/2012 7:48:15 AM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: massgopguy
And if he let the ponds dry up, the Feds would be after him for destroying Wet Lands.

Oh, there are so many laws on the books (everywhere!), and so many of them contradictory, that if THEY want to get you for any reason whatsoever, they will, and all without breaking a sweat.

Just like Ayn Rand warned...

CA....

43 posted on 08/01/2012 7:59:37 AM PDT by Chances Are (Seems I've found that silly grin again....)
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To: Paladin2; Portcall24
Owning land carries with it the ownership of space above and below that land.

As I see it, and without explicit written restrictions ... Oil rights, mineral rights and space above land (clouds, delivered contents. etc) belong to the landowner.

How this turns out should be interesting.

44 posted on 08/01/2012 8:06:38 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: Ben Ficklin

Thanks, I really didn’t want to get that deep into the matter, I’ve tried hard to forget the legal side of this. Water rights law in the west has always sucked as it has always seemed to favor the jerks down stream if they had more money or votes. Heck, they even diverted water through the Continental Divide to feed a thirsty Denver.

My concern in this day and age, we could well see the administration try to place the Prior Appropriation Standard on the very air we breathe.


45 posted on 08/01/2012 8:16:44 AM PDT by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: Paladin2
In this area the Iroquois imposed a rule on the tributary tribes to the effect that they, the Iroquois owned any land bordering any other tribe's claim a full arrow flight's distance from their far side of the creek!

That gave the Iroquis total possession of the creek, it's tributaries, and all the water drinking game animals on the other side.

They may have done it differently in the core area of New York where they had to deal only with other Confederation members and their slaves.

BTW, that gave them exclusive control of the water rights.

46 posted on 08/01/2012 8:17:18 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Portcall24

“The truth about this issue was posted here earlier in the week. This guy was diverting the river into the ponds”

Yeah, in Colorado this is right up there with cattle thieving. Essentially, all water in Colorado is privately owned, ownership being determined by who grabbed and used it first back in the day, and subsequent grabs thereafter. Water rights are owned, bought, and sold like real estate, and water companies are very similar to condo associations in the way they are operated by the shareholders.

We have a saying in Colorado: “You can steal my wife, but not my water”


47 posted on 08/01/2012 8:50:57 AM PDT by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Vote Republican in 2012 and only be called racist one more time!)
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To: OldNavyVet
So when the previous owner sold you "the surface rights", and not "the water rights" and not "the mineral rights" and not "other rights that may be discovered", what was it you bought?

Sometimes when you buy land you don't really get the "land" ~ you get a right to exercise surface rights.

It can be very complicated which is why there are lawyers. Even if there were no crime we'd have lawyers fighting over land for us.

48 posted on 08/01/2012 8:59:09 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

And if we keep moving out of the shadow of tyrany, instead of fighting it, we will soon run out of planet eh?

When men claim the rain and air over your land, you are not free, you are a peon.

Yeah, Washington has the same rain shadow effect. But they persicute people with rain barrels on their downspouts to water their gardens. All in the name of “fairness”.

BS. It’s Tyrany with velvet gloves.


49 posted on 08/01/2012 9:33:34 AM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: American in Israel; muawiyah; dontreadthis

Nobody “owns” rain, or air.


While stationed in the U.K., I learned that England’s Subjects are taxed for using screens on their houses because “the Queen’s air flowed through their homes.” While building houses, they pay a special window tax for using “the Queen’s sunlight.”

Maybe we forgot that we’re not subject to the government; the government is subject to us.


50 posted on 08/01/2012 9:42:24 AM PDT by Rides_A_Red_Horse (If there is a war on women, the Kennedys are the Spec Ops troops.)
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