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Can't We All Just Obey China?
Strategy Page ^ | August 7, 2012 | Strategy Page

Posted on 08/07/2012 7:37:14 AM PDT by Zhang Fei

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To: MeganC

“Stopping Chinese imperialism before they lay claim to Guam, Hawaii, or San Francisco is an American interest”

Give me a call when they are planning to invade ANY US territory. Thats just silly. As for a base here, when you sell and trade with someone, they are here in a port. But that was not a forcible entry. And if you murder someone in the COSCO terminal, you’ll be tried in California or in some cases Federal court.
It is not Chinese national territory.

I hope you have a better argument then that. That we need to go to war in the Spratley islands, to foil China’s plan to invade Hawaii, Guam, and San Francisco. LOL

41 posted on 08/07/2012 10:57:06 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: DesertRhino
No, they do not claim it as an inland water. They want to do exactly one thing there. Drill oil. They won’t impeded shipping there. What is there plan, close the shipping lanes that their economy utterly depends on?

Actually, they do, and they've started harassing non-Chinese fishermen in the region. They're not going to make it a closed military zone, they'll just insist that only Chinese commercial shipping is allowed through those waters, just as only Chinese shipping is allowed to navigate China's canals and rivers.

As a China-watcher who's read a fair amount of Chinese history, what sticks out is China's grabbiness with respect to territorial issues. The amusing thing is that it was a Chinese grad student who disabused me of the notion that China is a peaceful country. In a moment of candor, he said, quite logically, that big countries like China don't get that way by peaceful means. The National Review's John Derbyshire had this to say about China:

The Chinese people respond eagerly to these ultra-nationalist appeals: That is precisely why the leadership makes them. Resentment of the U.S., and a determination to enforce Chinese hegemony in Asia, are well-nigh universal among modern mainland Chinese. These emotions trump any desire for constitutional government, however much people dislike the current regime for its corruption and incompetence. Find a mainlander, preferably one under the age of thirty, and ask him which of the following he would prefer: for the Communists to stay in power indefinitely, unreformed, but in full control of the "three T's" (Tibet, Turkestan, Taiwan); or a democratic, constitutional government without the three T's. His answer will depress you. You can even try this unhappy little experiment with dissidents: same answer.

Is there anything we can do about all this? One thing only. We must understand clearly that there will be lasting peace in East Asia when, and only when, China abandons her atavistic fantasies of imperial hegemony, withdraws her armies from the two million square miles of other people's territory they currently occupy, and gets herself a democratic government under a rule of law. Until that day comes, if it ever does, the danger of war will be a constant in relations between China and the world beyond the Wall, as recent events in the South China Sea have illustrated. Free nations, under the indispensable leadership of the United States, must in the meantime struggle to maintain peace, using the one, single, and only method that wretched humanity, in all its millennia of experience, has so far been able to devise for that purpose: Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.

Every culture has a religion. The Chinese are remarkably irreligious in the conventional sense, except for a cargo cult version of paganism that should be familiar to anyone who's heard of the prosperity gospel. What passes in China for religion is a cult of national greatness - the model for Imperial Japan's world tour in the 1930's and 1940's. I believe China's neighbors are about to discover anew what their ancestors had to put up with on a routine basis before European adventurers set firm boundaries on Chinese territorial expansion 200 years ago. Our interest in the matter is the same as our interest in preventing Japan from annexing China during the pre-war era - it's never a good idea to allow an aggressive and ideologically hostile power to grow too big. More security for them means less security for us.
42 posted on 08/07/2012 11:24:18 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: DesertRhino
And yet you were brought into that war by a German exclusion zone on cargo to English ports. Not the other way round. Using the logic of your own example, Germany declared war on America.

Don't worry about antagonizing China by selling arms to their rivals. You - we - are already in an unstated economic war with China, and playing nice will not help a damn bit. You may as well gently push on their pressure points and sell some kick-ass warships to Taiwan + keep some friends in the area.

China cannot afford to divest themselves of the West's frankly worthless treasuries nor confront the US over anything until they have converted as much of their debt holdings as possible to Gold.

That's going to be the real battleground of the next two years: the possession of real money and the discovery of who actually has it.

Remember: the Central Bank of China is leveraged 1300 to 1, China's GDP figures are fairy stories and they have no spare water to frack for Natural Gas with: they have to tread carefully just like we all do.

Whereas America has about one oz of Gold per capita (assuming we can believe the official figures). This as you know is a high level of gold ownership. America is a Gold superpower.

If you guys can only rid yourself of that KleptoMarxist incubus Obama and exploit/export your vast natural gas reserves you should do very well over the next nine decades. America is a Natural Gas Saudi Arabia - but with every possible resource on earth and having possession of the greatest Naval power ever.

The paper dollar is doomed (just like all paper currency the world over) but once you get used to that idea you guys are well placed to take advantage of the rest of the century.

Don't let go of your Mahan advantage, and don't be afraid to leverage it to sell stuff in China's face. You don't have to invade the Spratleys, and the Chinese can't do anything to you that you haven't already done to yourselves.

43 posted on 08/07/2012 11:24:21 AM PDT by agere_contra (Vote ABO. Don't choose the Greater Evil and then boast about how principled you are)
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To: DesertRhino

China has made clear that they want the USA out of the Pacific and where have we heard that before? Oh, right, from Japan.

My point is why do we need to wait for China to attack Pearl Harbor and other American properties in the Pacific before we stand up to them?

44 posted on 08/07/2012 11:39:25 AM PDT by MeganC (The Cinemark theatre in Aurora, CO is a 'Gun Free Zone'. Spread the word.)
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To: Zhang Fei
they'll just insist that only Chinese commercial shipping is allowed through those waters, just as only Chinese shipping is allowed to navigate China's canals and rivers.

That would be a dangerous game. The Chinese would disastrously lose face if even a single ship started flying the Stars and Stripes (and if America had an proper President who wasn't afraid to react appropriately to a historically attested casus belli). THAT is a sign of the global reach of sea-power - the ability to wave a flag at a gun boat and get them to back off.

But as you say that level of control over freight is China's eventual aim. It's not an impossible scenario - heck, another four years of Obama and any ships near the Spratleys will be full of people fleeing the US - and China is after all a master of incremental encroachment.

So - it's a great time to sell weapons to China-suppressing proxies in the area. And a great time to maintain Global sea power.

But its a bad, bad time to put any troops in harms way on the islands. The whole point of sea-power is that you don't need to occupy ground: you just have to be able to project power when you need to.

45 posted on 08/07/2012 11:48:00 AM PDT by agere_contra (Vote ABO. Don't choose the Greater Evil and then boast about how principled you are)
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To: Zhang Fei; DesertRhino

Guys, good thread, good comments from all. I’m off to watch the Olympics.

46 posted on 08/07/2012 11:51:09 AM PDT by agere_contra (Vote ABO. Don't choose the Greater Evil and then boast about how principled you are)
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To: agere_contra
It isn't Free Trade that's driving manufacturing jobs overseas.

Except when we address it as Free Trade, folks defend it on that basis.  Other than that, you have an interesting point.  It's one we've been trying to make for two decades.  What's taking place with China isn't Free Trade.  I'm glad to see you realize that.

Massive corporate taxation, limitless legal vulnerability, crushing environmental regulation and pro-Union arbitrary Government: these are why industry chooses to locate away from the USA.

Riiiiight.  I guess I'd be a lot more interested in joining in with your righteous indignation here if the folks pleading Free Trade was wonderful, an excllent example of Capitalism at it's best, IF THEY HAD admitted that China charging 40% markup on our exports to it had made our trade relationship with it anything but Free Trade.  So far, in twenty years, I haven't met one Free Traitor that will.  Sure you have a point about our government driving business off-shore, but where was the complaint of China not allowing our goods in import, tariff, or maniulated currency free.  The topic was either brought up by us, or the sound of crickets...

Protectionism would be the final nail in the coffin.

Please link me to where I raised this (protectionism) red hering.  Failing that, we'll just both stipulate that you raised it when no one else did.

And for the record, admitting our nation is in a coffin with all the nails but one already pounded in, you've got a lot of nerve taking me to task because I said this needs to stop now.

I will give you credit for one thing though.  I couldn't have though of a more apropos analogy.  Thank you.

The last vestiges of American industry would be turned into feather-bedded welfare cases, and freeborn Americans would be forced to buy their stuff from the Government store.


Protectionism will also increase Government power. The Dems will collect all of that lovely tariff money and spend it on union pension bailouts or some damn thing.

Yawn.  Through yet?

America has tied its own hands behind its back with a ludicrous knot of EPA regulations, crushing taxation and arbitrary Government (just ask Gibsons guitars).

Okay, why didn't you just say that?  Nobody mentioned protectionism.  Excuse me, nobody but you that is.

Should we be going after government?  Of course we should.  Who has said we shouldn't.  You attribute fixes I never called for to me, and abscond with my intended fix for this and act as if you were coming up with something I didn't know needed to be done.  Nice trick if you can get away with it.  You couldn't.

Lets be honest with each other though.  This has not been the traditional response of the Free Traitors though, has it.  They have spent close to twenty years claiming "Free Trade" was going to win the day when it came to trade with China.  It hasn't, so now they try to shove the blame for all this off on the government.  Why did it take you folks so long, if that was the real problem all along?  Fact is, it wasn't the main reason our corporations moved off shore and you know it.

America needs to untie those knots - not wrap itself up in more of them in a fit of misplaced faux-patriotic anger.

America needs someone who is going to be honest concerning what transpired here.  Manipulating the argument to aleviate any blame from the Free Traitors isn't going to fly.  Thanks for playing though.

Don Pardo, tell our guest what parting gifts he's getting...

47 posted on 08/07/2012 11:57:55 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Nope 2012)
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To: DesertRhino

Well then, by your logic China should be able to make claim to Catalina. Hey, it’s over twenty miles off the mainland U. S.

China wants the Spratley Island group because it extends their military’s arm in the direction of choking off Western Pacific access to the Indian Ocean.

If you didn’t know that, why are you pestering folks on a topic you know nothing about.

48 posted on 08/07/2012 12:04:41 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Nope 2012)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

We are already in an economic cold war with China. They are winning.

49 posted on 08/07/2012 12:08:21 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Zhang Fei
For the next decade at least, that side is Uncle Sam, although the Chinese are closing fast, due to their massive investments in military R&D.

The fact the Chinese supply lines will be far, far shorter puts them at a distinct advantage. They can put a lot of force into their region on short notice.

The other wildcard... they Chinese have observed that the American public will only support a war so long before they start getting antsy. China's leaders have no such worry.

So, it comes down to unconventional weaponry. The problem is, we're ruled by someone who despises their very presence and has vowed not to use them.

50 posted on 08/07/2012 12:50:34 PM PDT by ScottinVA (Buying Drain-O requires photo I.D... yet voting doesn't???)
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To: thackney

Thanks for the excellent maps.

51 posted on 08/07/2012 5:57:11 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: central_va

(Big) bingo.

We have to change the rules. As it is, China has one set, everyone else has another.

That is now a disadvantage. Growing every day.

Pull out of China.

Or deal with them as equals. Nothing in between.

52 posted on 08/07/2012 7:12:43 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (America doesn't need any new laws. America needs freedom!)
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Interesting article. Please write more.

53 posted on 08/07/2012 8:37:24 PM PDT by bcat
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