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Exclusive: Brigham Young’s Great-Great-Granddaughter on Mormonism and Mitt Romney
Daily Beast ^ | August 7, 2012 | Jamie Reno

Posted on 08/07/2012 3:45:40 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

A direct descendant of Brigham Young, Sue Emmett left the church because of the very values she says would make Romney a frightening president. She speaks exclusively with Jamie Reno.

A direct descendant of Brigham Young, Sue Emmett left the church because of the very values she says would make Romney a frightening president. She speaks exclusively with Jamie Reno.

“Walking by that statue every day, I was reminded of my heritage, my lineage,” says Emmett. “That, plus going up to Salt Lake and walking through the Beehive House a couple of times and thinking of my grandmother, who I knew very well, all that pretty much sealed the deal for me being a very devout, obedient Mormon girl.”

But by the time she reached her mid-30s, she began to have doubts. Emmett started questioning the ethics and veracity of the church’s doctrine and its founders, including Young himself, and she grew increasingly concerned with the way, she says, the church treats women. She held these questions close to the vest for many years until, in 1999, at the age of 55, she finally made the hard decision to leave the church.

"There was a powerful mystique around me that I was special because of my heritage, so it was really difficult for me to leave,” says Emmett, now 71. “It was the only life, the only home I ever knew. But I just couldn’t stay any longer.”

Emmett, who still has dear friends and family members in the church—“You can be critical of the church and still be compassionate toward the people in it,” she says—is now president of the Exmormon Foundation, which was organized to give support and understanding to those who leave Mormonism. In an exclusive interview with The Daily Beast, Emmett, who rarely speaks to the media, talks about what life is like in the church, why she left, and what she thinks motivates Mitt Romney to want to be president.

Sue Emmett discusses her experience as a woman in the Mormon church.

"The church has astutely created a very benign image to the world. They spend millions of dollars a year doing this," says Emmett, who was born and raised in Portland, Ore., and still lives there. "But there are things that go on inside the church that are hurtful to women. There are many women still in the church who have complaints about not having any real say in what goes on, but they have nowhere to go with these complaints.”

Emmett says there is a lot of silent suffering among Mormon women, but she just reached a point where she couldn’t stay silent anymore.

“The church has astutely created a very benign image to the world. They spend millions of dollars a year doing this,” says Emmett.

Divorced from her husband of 34 years, who is still a Mormon, Emmett—the mother of seven grown children, five of whom are still in the church while two have left—says that “the one thing that finally put the arrow in me" was when she and her sister-in-law decided to start a retreat for Mormon women. Church leaders were not amused, she says.

“It was just a social and cultural thing," Emmett explains. "We made a vow that we would never have anything at the retreat that was anti-church, it would just be a place for cultural events and sharing ideas. We had artists and guest speakers, including one woman who spent her life traveling around the world taking pictures of women and their cultures.”

Emmett says the retreat, which was held in an Oregon mountain lodge and typically attracted between 60 and 70 Mormon women, had feminist overtones, “but we never talked about problems at church. We did nothing wrong.”

Still, the negative reaction among her church’s leadership was the last straw.

"We knew we'd get in trouble for doing it, but we did it anyway," she says. "From that point on, I was marginalized. I’d done everything a good Mormon woman could do in the church, including teaching children in Sunday school, but after we did the retreat I was treated differently.”

Responding to Emmett’s comments about the church’s treatment of women, Ruth Todd, a spokeswoman for the church, tells The Daily Beast: “Nearly half of the 14 million members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are women. To assert that my membership or participation in the church is based on compulsion or deception is both offensive and disparaging to me as a woman, and is patently false.”

Says Todd: “The right of every individual [Mormon] to make choices for themselves that determine their path in life and in the eternities is a fundamental doctrine of our faith. As a woman, I view my role in the church and in God’s plan as distinct and complementary to the efforts of men. Trying to characterize the role of women in the church in a purely hierarchical way misses the mark and is a flawed premise that demeans the role and value of women.”

Since she left 13 years ago, Emmett has become a leader of the ex-Mormon movement, which she says is not about bashing her former church but about helping former members make the difficult adjustment. “It’s such an insular world, and for some people it is really hard to make it on the ‘outside,’ so to speak,” she says.

Emmett has watched Mitt Romney very closely throughout his public life and has strong opinions about what shaped his personality and his character. “Mitt is a product not only of his wealth, but of an organization that gives men power when they are 12 years old,” she says. “That is when boys are ordained with the priesthood. It is a big moment in a Mormon male’s childhood.”

As for what pundits say is Romney's difficulty connecting with people, Emmett blames it largely on what she calls “the entitled Mormon male syndrome, where the leadership professes compassion and concern but leaves the manifestations of that to the drones. All male leadership is not this way; there are some wonderful men who do their best to exercise their power compassionately, but many do not.”

Emmett says Romney was a bishop, “a position where everyone defers to you. What a bishop says goes. People come to them to receive blessings.” He then became a stake president, she says, which means he presided over several congregations, and at that point bishops deferred to him.

“Mitt has had people defer to him and not challenge him his entire life,” says Emmett. “In the Mormon church if you challenge your priesthood leaders it’s a very bad thing to do, especially for women. As the world can now see, Mitt has a very hard time with being questioned and criticized; he’s had so little of this in his life."

Will he be more beholden to his church than to the American people? Emmett recalls that when Romney was stake president in the church, he was pro-life. But when he was running for governor he changed his position to pro-choice. A woman in the church who was a good friend of Emmett’s went to see Romney and thanked him for changing his position. “He told her that he had talked to church leaders in Salt Lake,” Emmett says, “and that they gave him permission to change his position.”

The Romney campaign did not respond to numerous requests for comment.

Emmett says she doesn’t think Romney has the ability to separate what leaders of the church want from what the country needs.

“Mitt has been groomed to become president from a very young age,” says Emmett. “The thing is, I think his father [George Romney, who ran for president in 1968] would have made a much better president. In many ways the church was more benign then than it is now.”

But Emmett begs to differ. “I can guarantee you that there are millions of Mormons who believe this prophecy and see Romney as potential fulfillment of it,” she says. “As a Mormon, you grow up hearing about this prophecy. I think Mitt believes he has a mandate from God to become president so he can help move this along. I don’t know if it’s a conscious thought, but it's in his subconscious.”

Emmett says she thinks Romney’s biggest fault is that he has a “serious problem telling the truth. There is flip-flopping, which he has done more than any politician in modern history, and then there is out and out lying,” she says. “This kind of thing has sadly been a part of the church from the very beginning. Some modern apostles actually taught that it is not always the best thing to tell the truth if it interferes with preaching gospel.”

Emmett says the notion of “Lying for the Lord,” as it has been called, implies that teaching the whole truth about the church should be avoided. At a presentation on Lying for the Lord at the 2008 Exmormon Foundation conference, Ken Clark addressed the issue. Clark, who worked as a teacher for the LDS Church Education System (CES) for 27 years and also served as a bishop before leaving the church in 2003, tells The Daily Beast, “Lying has become an institutionalized method of administrative control with the church.”

“Every Mormon grows up with the idea that it’s OK to lie if it’s for a higher cause,” says Clark, who now works for a company that markets employment and labor market data. “But what happens is when this becomes a part of your ethical tool kit, you develop a condescending attitude toward people. Like Ann Romney saying 'you people.’ This idea of lying for the Lord gives you license to place people on an inferior level. It’s OK for Mitt Romney to ignore the principle of full disclosure because it’s in his DNA. Look what he’s doing with his taxes, and how he talks only in generic and sanitized terms about his religion.”

But church spokeswoman Ruth Todd says there is no merit to Clark's accusations.

“To assert that there is a culture of dishonesty or deception in the church is both woefully uninformed and ridiculous," Todd says. "The pursuit of truth is at the heart of who we are. Mormon women around the world participate actively in our church because we find value and truth in the doctrines, structure and deep meaning provided by the gospel of Jesus Christ that is at the core of our faith. All church members are encouraged to study for themselves and develop their own convictions about the church and its teachings.”

When Clark left the church, he says, Emmett was of "great help to me. She is one of best people I know. She is very courageous and compassionate."

And Emmett, despite her issues with Romney and the church, does not want to be cast as a Mormon hater. She says that while she strongly disagrees with many of the tenets and practices of Mormonism, most Mormons are kind, honest people.

“Many of my children and other family members are still devout Mormons, and I want to be sensitive to their beliefs and I have no desire to hurt them,” says Emmett. “It’s been hard for me. It was my entire life for 50 years. I was very sincere and devout for a very long time. But as a feminist and someone who believes that you should be allowed to say what you really feel, I had to leave.”



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1 posted on 08/07/2012 3:45:48 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; Godzilla; fishtank; ...

Ping


2 posted on 08/07/2012 3:48:00 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tell the 52,000 mormon missionaries to stop going worldwide proclaiming Christianity to be false.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Mitt or Barry....unless some miracle happens, in which I’m still praying for. My vote will be decided on election day (not for barry), so the other guy gets it.

IF I had to choose between one or the other, it must be Mitt.


3 posted on 08/07/2012 3:49:54 PM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Don’t know how the red font happened.


4 posted on 08/07/2012 3:49:54 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tell the 52,000 mormon missionaries to stop going worldwide proclaiming Christianity to be false.)
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To: greyfoxx39
Sue Emmett is Mormon royalty. Her great-great-grandfather was Brigham Young, the founder of Salt Lake City, first governor of Utah, and president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) from 1847 until his death in 1877.

204 grand-children and 745 great-grandchildren according to the New York Times ... in 1902!

Oh, she's royalty alright.

5 posted on 08/07/2012 3:59:07 PM PDT by x
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To: greyfoxx39

This femenist ex-Mormon, who happens to be a descendant of Brigham Young, has no apparent personal knowledge of Mitt Romney and from the depth of that knowledge has determined that, strictly on the basis of the Mormon faith, Harry Reid is a LIAR!


6 posted on 08/07/2012 4:02:18 PM PDT by SES1066 (Government is NOT the reason for my existence!)
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To: NoGrayZone

I am voting for neither.

I cannot in good conscience vote for either.

I will trust in God that He can do anything, but I don’t think He wants me to vote for either of them.


7 posted on 08/07/2012 4:03:30 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: greyfoxx39

How apt of you to print something from the obamabot uber-leftist wackos at Beastly Days!!


8 posted on 08/07/2012 4:04:04 PM PDT by parisa
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To: greyfoxx39

So is she voting for Obama, someone else or staying home? Inquiring minds want to know.


9 posted on 08/07/2012 4:06:38 PM PDT by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: x

Almost as big as the Kennedy clan. ;)


10 posted on 08/07/2012 4:07:51 PM PDT by I_Publius
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To: x
She thinks she should be treated as “Royalty” because she is a descendant of Brigham Young.

She really is upset that the Bishop and Stake President didn't defer to her “Royal Heritage”.

11 posted on 08/07/2012 4:07:57 PM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: parisa
How apt of you to print something from the obamabot uber-leftist wackos at Beastly Days!!

There is a small grout of Freepers who will post from any kind of site as long as it attacks Mormons. Very sad and rather pitiful.

12 posted on 08/07/2012 4:08:58 PM PDT by Jean S
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To: greyfoxx39
She held these questions close to the vest for many years until, in 1999, at the age of 55, she finally made the hard decision to leave the church.

"There was a powerful mystique around me that I was special because of my heritage, so it was really difficult for me to leave,” says Emmett, now 71.

The author (or Ms. Emmet) needs to check her math. If Emmet was 55 years old in 1999 she would be 68 years old today.

13 posted on 08/07/2012 4:10:25 PM PDT by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Mitt - the republican John Kerry, the white Obama, the one whose history is everything the Tea Party opposes, and the first Cultic POTUS. No thanks.


14 posted on 08/07/2012 4:10:43 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: greyfoxx39

Just a minor point but if she was 55 in 1999, how is she 71 today?


15 posted on 08/07/2012 4:10:43 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Legalize Freedom!!)
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To: greyfoxx39

As the stepson of a Mormon with many Mormon family members, I say “Bullsqueeze” to this entire article.

The Mormon theology is kooky to me, but you can’t argue that it’s adherents aren’t honest, upright, and patriotic.


16 posted on 08/07/2012 4:10:43 PM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: All

There can be no doubt that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

Jesus Christ is not returning to Independence, Missouri, nor Salt Lake City, Utah, nor Adam-Ondi-Ahman as it’s called, near Gallatin, Missouri.

Mormons and RLDS that I have known / been friends with are generally decent people. My most recent RLDS friend doesn’t speak much with me anymore, though, since I told him that Joseph Smith obviously made it all up (no archaeological evidence; contradictions with actual history, like steel, horses, etc.).

But I know what four more years of Obama will bring.

Either way, the country is buried financially and in a PC-quagmire.

Aye carumba.


17 posted on 08/07/2012 4:15:55 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: clee1; greyfoxx39; All
The Mormon theology is kooky to me, but you can’t argue that it’s adherents aren’t honest, upright, and patriotic.

Oh, sure we could argue...

Unless, of course, Clee1, you'd like to round up ALL of the fraud victims reflected in these recent cases -- most of whom are Lds -- and then repeat your statement in their very presence:

Let's start with financial fraud just only going back to 2009

Lds members have fleeced over 1 & 1/2 billion from fellow Mormons the past few years alone! Guess what? They initially didn't regret "doing business" with them, either!!!
(2010 Source puts it at over $1.4 billion...and MORE has been uncovered since then!) : Mormons Now Losing Billions to Affinity Fraud

Can you fill me in any other religious sect that has less than 2% of the overall population (1.7%) -- that has launched at least $1.4 billion worth of fraud schemes vs. fellow sect members the past two or three years?

If you only have time to click on one article link below...read this one: JOHN L. SMITH: Thieves in the temple: How 'affinity fraud' hurts LDS church members
Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal, Sept. 12, 2010 Be sure to read the comments of FBI special agent Cameron Saxey (who is Lds)...the article mentions how the Utah jurisdictional Securities Fraud Task Force was working on 100+ cases...meaning that $1.4 billion total doesn't tell it all!

The sad individual accounts [Indeed: Pray for the victims, most Lds]:

* All in the Mormon Family Mortgage Fraud [Re: Idaho fraud]
Source: Conservative Babylon.com, June 27, 2012

* Episode Detail: The Mormon Madoff - American Greed: Scams, Scoundrels and Scandals
Source: TV Guide.com re: series American Greed: Scams, Scoundrels, and Scandals, June 20, 2012

* Former LDS bishop gets jail, probation for massive fraud
Source: Provo Herald, June 7, 2012

* LDS Bishop Pleads Guilty To Fraud
Source: Kutv.com, June 7, 2012

* Utah investors caught up in alleged $170M fraud: SEC says 2 men committed fraud as they raised $170M to build Caribbean resorts, and that 250 of the 1,700 alleged victims are from Utah
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, May 31, 2012

* Beware of affinity fraud ‘predators’ who exploit trust, LDS spokesman warns
Source: Fraud College.org, April 2, 2012

* Former LDS bishop charged with fraud, pleads not guilty
Connecticut Criminal Defense Blog, March 29, 2012

* Former Mormon Bishop In Trumbull Charged With Investor Fraud
Source: Hartford Courant, March 27, 2012

* The LDS Church Issues a Strong Position on Affinity Fraud
Source: Utah Securities Fraud.com, March 7, 2012

* Affinity Fraud Called a Destructive Crime at Conference
Source: Lds.org, Feb. 20, 2012

* Church Representative to Address Fraud College [From the official Lds Web site]
Source: Lds.org, Feb. 15, 2012

* Affinity Fraud statement
Source: Official Mormon Newsroom.org, Undated (Early 2012)

* Father, son used Mormon connections to commit $220M Ponzi scheme (Utah case)
Source: Mormon church-owned KSL.com, Dec. 16, 2011

* Former LDS bishop cons elderly man out of life savings, police say
Source: Provo Daily Herald, Oct. 19, 2011

* Tag archives @Utahsecuritiesfraud.com: LDS Church

* Provo councilman Steve Turley charged with felonies [LDS High Council Member]
Source: Provo Herald, July 27, 2011

* Feds arrest St. George business man, philanthropist for mail fraud
Source: Mormon-church owned KSL.com, June 11, 2011

* Former LDS leader charged in fraud against Ute football coach, others
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, June 8, 2011

* Suspected Mormon Con Artist Pleading Guilty to $78M Scam
Source: Streetsweeper.org, May 31, 2011

* Mormon Madoff? Source: Financial Fraud Law.com, May 27, 2011

* A Fraud Played Out on Family and Friends
Source: New York Times, May 26, 2011

* St. George investor ordered to jail [ex-Lds bishop]
Source: MidUtahRadio.com, April 15, 2011

* Using trust to steal (Utah affinity fraud)
Source: Ogden (UT) Standard Examiner, Feb. 3, 2011

* JOHN L. SMITH: Thieves in the temple: How 'affinity fraud' hurts LDS church members
Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal, Sept. 12, 2010

* Local political gadfly arrested for exploiting elderly woman
Source: Provo Daily Herald, May 4, 2010

* Preying on the faithful: Though Mormons often victims, LDS church skips fraud-prevention event
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, May 2, 2010

* Kaneohe swindler is sentenced
Source: Honolulu Star-Bulletin, April 6, 2010

* Investors with troubled firm have Mormon ties
Source: Austin American Statesman, Jan. 16, 2010

* Man Who Defrauded Fellow Church Goer Pleads Guilty
Source: www.connect2utah.com (KUTV) Jan. 7, 2010

* Lindon Man Accused of Trying to Kill Witnesses to Alleged Scam
Source: MidUtahRadio.com, Nov. 19, 2009

* KSL 5 News investigates affinity fraud
Source: KSL.com Nov. 9, 2009

* Mormon victims are caught up in $50M scam to sell gold bullion
Salt Lake Tribune, Sept. 18, 2009

* LDS Church returned $200K in Southwick Tithing
Source: AP, Sept. 14, 2009

* Merriman's church donations may be tained [Momon Ponzi schemer's tithe monies ill-gotten?]
Source: Denver Post, April 24, 2009

* Man Who Defrauded Fellow Church Goer Pleads Guilty
Source: Fox News, April 8, 2009

* Calif. Man Charged with $40 million Ponzi scheme
Source: AP, March 20, 2009

The bottom line here is that you would expect a church that has 2% of the nation's population to have about 2% of affinity fraud cases -- even if they were as criminal as the atheists and agnostics! [You would expect them to have less than 2% if there was a true higher moral standard at operation here]. You don't expect cases involving $one and a half BILLION!

And, of course...If Joseph Smith committed banking fraud...and if Joseph Smith committed massive spiritual fraud...then we would expect that seed to be planted within the Mormon church...and to germinate widely.

Joseph Smith's banking scam: Joseph Smith's Mormon Banking Scam

18 posted on 08/07/2012 4:18:11 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: fishtank
"I am voting for neither."

That is my position also. How can we continue as "One nation under God" if we vote for a godless man as our only solution for this nation?

Got a good write in?

19 posted on 08/07/2012 4:19:09 PM PDT by Big_Harry (Ecc10:2 "A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left")
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To: greyfoxx39

I’m always happy to hear of souls freed from religious cultism. While I have no sympathy for Mormonism, I have lived around, worked with and worked for Mormons, and that experience doesn’t discourage me in the least from voting for Romney. I was studying Walter Martin and listening to Christian apologists long before many here ever delved into studying the cults, and still, given a choice between Mormonism and the hate cult of liberation theology, I again go with Romney. If there were a better choice for getting rid of Obama, I’d take it, but there isn’t. Since Romney is the only choice I have that can rid us of Obama, I support him, Mormonism, Ivy League, establishment RINOism and all. Damn!


20 posted on 08/07/2012 4:19:56 PM PDT by pallis
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To: Jean S; parisa
"There is a small grout of Freepers who will post from any kind of site as long as it attacks Mormons. Very sad and rather pitiful."

How true. They are so blinded by their Mormon hate sight, that is all they see.

"Screw the country....as long as we don't have a Mormon President".

How "Christian" of them.

21 posted on 08/07/2012 4:20:52 PM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: Jean S; parisa; All
There is a small grout of Freepers who will post from any kind of site as long as it attacks Mormons. Very sad and rather pitiful.

There is a small grout of Freepers who will post any pro-Romney based opinion which winds up leading to attacking ex-Mormons and those critiquing Mormonism. Very sad and rather pitiful.

22 posted on 08/07/2012 4:21:51 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: fishtank

same here

and it irks me that some losers here all say that NOT voting for Romney somehow increases the number of votes for Obama

Obama only gets the votes people cast and what ever the dems can steal

Romney will win this election I beleve, Obama has alienated too many people

But, those votes will not include mine

My conscience will be clear.


23 posted on 08/07/2012 4:23:00 PM PDT by RaceBannon (I wont vote for a gay marriage marxist gun grabber, or vote for Obama, either)
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To: parisa
How apt of you to print something from the obamabot uber-leftist wackos at Beastly Days!!

The point is that this article is all over the internet. Check out Google.

While I'm not a feminist, she makes a good and TRUE argument for the way women are treated in the mormon church...as accessories to the men.

Link

24 posted on 08/07/2012 4:23:20 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tell the 52,000 mormon missionaries to stop going worldwide proclaiming Christianity to be false.)
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To: clee1

Willard and Dingy Harry certainly ain’t honest or very upright.


25 posted on 08/07/2012 4:24:07 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (If you like lying Socialist dirtbags, you'll love Slick Willard)
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To: NoGrayZone; Jean S; parisa; All
They are so blinded by their Mormon hate sight, that is all they see. "Screw the country....as long as we don't have a Mormon President". How "Christian" of them.

They are so blinded by their support of Romney, that is all they see. "Screw the GoP permanently...and 100% alienate and ostracize conservatives permanently from any party that might actually represent them and their views...as long as they have the right uniform on...why, they'd vote for Obama if Obama lost 2012 and switched parties and ran vs. a Dem in 2020." How "conservative" of them.

26 posted on 08/07/2012 4:25:03 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: greyfoxx39; parisa; All
While I'm not a feminist, she makes a good and TRUE argument for the way women are treated in the mormon church...as accessories to the men.

Book of Mormon Jeopardy on Women

Time to hit the Jeopardy category of “Women in the Book of Mormon.” (For those who don't know "Jeopardy," the answer comes first)
Answer: 2%
Question: What % of the 250 or so characters in the Book of Mormon are female?

Answer: Once
Question: How many times are “sisters” even referenced in the Book of Mormon? [The only reference I've found is 2 Nephi 5:6 – and even then these sisters of Nephi are unnumbered & unnamed]

Answer: Sarai
Question: Who's the only wife mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Answer: Abish
Question: Who's the only daughter mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Answer: Don't Exist
Question: Who are sisters mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon?

Now that we know the BoM marginalizes women, how can we tell if it trivializes women, too?

(1) Leading off the lineup of Mormon women, we have the unnamed daughter of Jared (Ether 8:8-12). What goes through her brain? Why she wants to dance before a man so that she'll seduce him into marrying him; then this household can properly commit patricide. Nice.

(2) There's an unnamed Lamanite queen in Alma 47:35. She's easy to defraud.

(3) There's another unnamed Lamanite queen in Alma 22:19-24. Let's see. This queen sees Aaron & servants @ foot of a dead king's bed. She jumps to wrongful conclusions. Then in all her decisiveness, she's going to massacre them for guilt-by-association. Then she started to back down from her heavy-handed executive authority. Why? Not because of justice, but because of fear – her servants were fearful. So she was, too (v. 21). Aaron, seeing that this woman was no match for kingdom authority, elected, instead to do the “easy thing.” And what was the easy thing in comparison to trying to deal with this queen? Why, he raised the king back from the dead (vv. 22-23).

(4) And since the book of Alma in the Book of Mormon seems to carry the predominant mention of women on behalf of the entire book, how do the earlier chapters introduce such women?
Here, read it yourself:
“And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and [“and” = covering things you haven't yet covered...so what you seen the next line applies to what follows -- not what was preceding]
and all that you POSSESS, your women and your children,
according to your faith and good works,
from this time forth AND FOREVER
And thus I have spoken. Amen. (Alma 7:27)

(Well, last time I looked, forever meant forever...meaning women are forever...possess[ions] per the Book of Mormon.

Other than that, when women are mentioned in the Book of Mormon, they are good for toiling, spinning, working (Mosiah 10:5; Hel. 6:13) and having kids (1 Nephi 17:1), which the prestigious clans of the Book of Mormon were good at having by gobs of millions...supposedly.

And even when we get to the grandest of stories about women yanked out of the Bible, even Joseph can't get it quite exact. He references an unnamed virgin in 1 Nephi 11:18 -- who Smith identified as "the mother of God." Now the RC among us might say, "So?"

27 posted on 08/07/2012 4:27:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: greyfoxx39

Let’s keep religion out of this. I’m no Romney fan but we’re going to end up with 4 more years of 0bama if we don’t all unite. If Romney is the apparent nominee, then let’s stop rooting for the other side. The time for this was primary season.


28 posted on 08/07/2012 4:28:55 PM PDT by TrueFact
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To: greyfoxx39
Wow, you even pinged the Morom hatred gang.

Too bad you don't share your hatred of muzzies like you do with Mormons.

29 posted on 08/07/2012 4:29:19 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: Jean S
There is a small grout of Freepers who will post from any kind of site as long as it attacks Mormons. Very sad and rather pitiful.

Thank you for writing that, this is getting a bit tiresome.

Some of these people are obsessed, bordering on psychosis.

30 posted on 08/07/2012 4:33:33 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: TrueFact; greyfoxx39
Let’s keep religion out of this.

Let's keep religion in this.

(After all, unlike TrueFact, the majority of Americans did as of just six years ago!)

A Freeper posted a Rasmussen late 2006: [see Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate (Rasmussen Poll) ]. According to that excerpt:

The Rasmussen Reports survey found that 35% say that a candidate's faith and religious beliefs are very important in their voting decision. Another 27% say faith and religious beliefs are somewhat important. Ninety-two percent (92%) of Evangelical Christian voters consider a candidate's faith and beliefs important. On the partisan front, 78% of Republicans say that a candidate's faith is an important consideration, a view shared by 55% of Democrats. However, there is also a significant divide on this topic within the Democratic Party. Among minority Democrats, 71% consider faith and religious beliefs an important consideration for voting. Just 44% of white Democrats agree.

So…what % of the following groups found that a candidate’s faith and religious beliefs were an important consideration for voting?
(1) Americans: 62%
(2) Evangelical Christians: 92%
(3) Republicans: 78%
(4) Democrats: 55% [still a majority]

31 posted on 08/07/2012 4:34:01 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

The only threads I have come across of yours is anti-Mormon threads.

Nothing else. That’s ALL you have. You want barry, fine, you can have him.

We’ll split America into 2. YOU can have your “non-Mormon” Pres_ent and we’ll take the Mormon.


32 posted on 08/07/2012 4:34:11 PM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Mormons comprised most of the personnel that investigate and grant security clearances for just about everybody as I found out during my service with the Army. When I asked why, I was told that they are “clean” meaning there’s nothing in the investigators’ background that could be used for blackmail.


33 posted on 08/07/2012 4:35:39 PM PDT by tweakDU (Someday karma will run over leftist dogma.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron; Jean S
Thank you for writing that, this is getting a bit tiresome. Some of these people are obsessed, bordering on psychosis.

Thank you for your ad hominen demonstration. Some of these ad-hominen attackers are obsessed with personal attacks, bordering on...(???)...Well, I'll leave that to people who actually go beyond trying to psycho-analyze complete strangers online...which is itself quite a relational immoral disorder...

34 posted on 08/07/2012 4:37:16 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: tweakDU
Mormons comprised most of the personnel that investigate and grant security clearances for just about everybody as I found out during my service with the Army. When I asked why, I was told that they are “clean” meaning there’s nothing in the investigators’ background that could be used for blackmail.

Yes...but affinity fraud (see post #18)...along with quite a bit of other problems arising out of Utah...is beginning to change that...

2009 saw quite a bit of eruption of Lds affinity fraud...and it hasn't abated

35 posted on 08/07/2012 4:39:13 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Your hatred of Mormons is all you see. You don’t look at the politics, you only look at things from your personal perspective of Mormons.

Were you sexually abused by a Mormon? I am serious, it’s the only explanation for your obsession and hatred.


36 posted on 08/07/2012 4:39:13 PM PDT by Jean S
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To: Colofornian

Really? You have no idea what you are saying. If you folks continue to rail about Romney being Mormon, you’re going to end up having 0bama for 4 more years. And who knows what he is? But given a choice of the lesser of two evils, I’m going to do all I can to NOT re-elect 0bama. That include trying to convince you short-sighters to just hold your collective noses and go vote for Romney come November....all of you. Geez. What other choice is there? Some stupid protest vote or non-vote?


37 posted on 08/07/2012 4:40:19 PM PDT by TrueFact
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To: RaceBannon
Romney will win this election I beleve, Obama has alienated too many people

But, those votes will not include mine

My conscience will be clear.

^ THIS ^ I live in one of the deep, deep bluest cities of all the deep, deep bluest states EVER; and there's simply no earthly way any Mittbot -- no matter how huffily indignant they get, or how desperately they troll -- can conceivably guilt me into surrendering my lone, principled vote when Mittens' odds of actually carrying Seattle are appreciably less than those of Rachel Maddow winning the Miss Universe pageant next year.

38 posted on 08/07/2012 4:40:56 PM PDT by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle ("If you're not fiscally AND socially conservative, you're not conservative!" - Jim Robinson, 9-1-10)
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To: Jean S; Las Vegas Ron
Your hatred of ex-Mormons and those who critique Mormonism is all you see thru your pro-Romney lens. You don't look at the spiritual eternal damage that Mormonism causes, you look at things from your personal pro-Romney perspective.

My Lds relatives have always treated me wonderfully. And, no, no Lds person has sexually abused me in my past...But good try attempting to psycho-analyze complete strangers online...perhaps you and Las Vegas Ron could start an online "clinic"...and you could team up to become the "clinicians."

39 posted on 08/07/2012 4:42:27 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TrueFact
Really? You have no idea what you are saying.

Don't argue with me. (Just wave your wand and repeat three times, "This 2006 Rasmussen poll never existed. This 2006 Rasmussen poll never existed. This 2006 Rasmussen poll never existed." ... I've been told... on good Oz authority...that the poll will just magically disappear as if it never existed).

If you folks continue to rail about Romney being Mormon, you’re going to end up having 0bama for 4 more years

Are you claiming that we few that that much sovereign power to be wielded over MILLIONS of voters come November??? Wow! Now, I'll pick up that wand of yours: "Elect Virgil Goode. Defeat Obama & Romney. Elect Virgil Goode. Defeat Obama & Romney. Elect Virgil Goode. Defeat Obama & Romney."

That include trying to convince you short-sighters...

We're the "short-sighted" ones...under your "principle" of utilitarian pragmatic political relativism being advocated, you're teaching your kids & grand-kids that if Obama loses in 2012, but switches parties & re-runs as a RINO POTUS candidate in 2020, vote for Obama in 2020 'cause he'll be "the lesser of 2 evils" than the (D) 2020 candidate.

Under your scheme, you'd advocate people choose the "lesser of 2 evils" if it was 'tween THE anti-Christ and a reincarnated Hitler.

Frankly it's the converts to the new RINO GoP that will cause a mass exodus from that party -- a party that's already down to representing just 29% of all registered voters...way to make the GoP like the Whigs...headed for extinction...

40 posted on 08/07/2012 4:50:18 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Notice that no one is posting a rebuttal to the article itself...the only defense by the mormon/mitt defenders is to attack anyone who doesn't kiss his CTR ring.

We have been posting for years the fact that opponents to Romney's acquiring the presidency will bring about the unveiling of his mormonism...AND....I'm sure it hasn't escaped the notice of his defenders that Mitt himself does not have the fortitude to discuss his religion in detail. He dodges any reference to it.

I believe his reluctance to reveal his tax returns will bring on the attacks on the millions and millions of "charitable" contributions he makes to the mormon church. I can see the Obama campaign making hay with comparing his contributions to those who make contributions to organizations who actually DO charitable works on a daily basis.

41 posted on 08/07/2012 4:54:34 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tell the 52,000 mormon missionaries to stop going worldwide proclaiming Christianity to be false.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Since she now needs a new religion, perhaps she should join a mosque. The islamic fanatics treat their women with great respect as they are being stoned and lovingly raped.


42 posted on 08/07/2012 4:54:56 PM PDT by jmax (Ahhhh...life is so frigging good in the obama nation.)
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To: pallis

If Obama were the problem I might agree with you. He is the current mantle carrier of the liberal torch. Mittens is as much the problem as is Obama.


43 posted on 08/07/2012 4:57:28 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (Better the devil we can destroy than the Judas we must tolerate.)
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To: clee1
but you can’t argue that it’s adherents aren’t honest, upright, and patriotic.<

Oh, yes I can.

44 posted on 08/07/2012 4:58:54 PM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Colofornian; Jean S
Thank you for your ad hominen demonstration.

ad hominem??? Is that what you're trying to convey???

LOL, look up the word, maybe you'll learn to spell it at the same time you might even learn, maybe even comprehend, the definition.

Who do you prefer in the White House, a muzzie or a Mormon?

You have a choice, pick one.

45 posted on 08/07/2012 5:00:41 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: NoGrayZone
IF I had to choose between one or the other, it must be Mitt.

You don't.

46 posted on 08/07/2012 5:01:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
Notice that no one is posting a rebuttal to the article itself...the only defense by the mormon/mitt defenders is to attack anyone who doesn't kiss his CTR ring.

Bingo.

ALL: Notice the sheer corrupting power that the Romney candidacy now has upon conservatives, conservative Christians, and GoP people who want to continue to have a "place at the table":

* When it comes to mentioning the realities of Mormonism, it's "toss it to the wind" for many, and even worse, many are saying, "We've become the new apologists for Mormonism."

* When it comes to mentioning Romney's pro-abort statements from May 2005 --> Dec. 2007 (after his supposed "pro-life" conversion), it's "toss it to the wind" -- we'll pretend he didn't say these things...and ignore that we're voting for an outright pro-abort.

* When it comes to mentioning RomneyCare -- and how Romney beat out Hillary & Obama in becoming THE initial socialist healthcare pioneer, it's "let's toss critiquing both Obama & Romney's socialist healthcare to the wind..." lest we be too hypocritical.

* When it comes to repeating all the liberal critiques that many FREEPERs had of Romney for the previous 5+ years (his support of global warming; his pro-homosexual agenda actions; his nomination of judges who were 75% Democrats; etc. etc. etc.), it's "let toss all those conservative principles under the bus"...'cause we're the RINOized 'new GoP.'

47 posted on 08/07/2012 5:02:28 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: greyfoxx39

I know a lot of people will burn me for this- but I know what Jesus did for me (Eph 2:8-9) and that the Mormon religion is based on lies and Satanic beliefs, not the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romney ~may~ end up the tyrant that we all hope doesn’t come to pass in our lifetimes. Not saying he will, but he may.

J.S.


48 posted on 08/07/2012 5:03:52 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: Jean S
There is a small grout of Freepers who will post from any kind of site as long as it attacks Mormons.

I just HATE when that happens!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

49 posted on 08/07/2012 5:03:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jmax
The islamic fanatics treat their women with great respect as they are being stoned and lovingly raped

The way the FLDS treat THEIR women with great respect?

chart Pictures, Images and Photos

Trace the development of the FLDS from Joseph Smith.

I think the FLDS is an apt comparison to your mention of islamic practices....AND there are close ties of the present-day mormon church to islam.

***********************************************

1 - A LDS perspective on Muhammed (LDS.org)
http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad?lang=eng

2 - U.S. Muslims share friendship, similar values with Mormons (LA Times, published in 2008)
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/02/local/me-morlims2

3 - Mormonism and Islam: Commonality and Cooperation Between Abrahamic Faiths (March 10 & 11, 2011 - Utah Valley University)
http://www.uvu.edu/religiousstudies/mormonismandislam/

4 - Ask a Mormon: What do Mormons think of Muslims (March 2010 - MormonWoman.org)
http://mormonwoman.org/2010/03/15/ask-a-mormon-woman-what-do-mormons-think-about-islam/

5 - Mormons and Muslims break fast together (Ramadan 2010 - Deseret News)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705386347/Mormons-Muslims-break-the-fast-in-Southern-California.html

6 - Islamic Translation Service (Brigham Young University)
http://meti.byu.edu/islamic.php

7 - Muslims attending BYU focus on similarities between Islam, LDS tenets (Deseret News - Dec 2009)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705353014/Muslims-attending-BYU-focus-on-similarities-between-Islam-LDS-tenets.html

50 posted on 08/07/2012 5:04:43 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tell the 52,000 mormon missionaries to stop going worldwide proclaiming Christianity to be false.)
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