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Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue (an oldie but goodie) ^ | 7/13/06 | Deadmeat2

Posted on 08/10/2012 10:44:12 AM PDT by LibWhacker

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't. Ballistic gelatin is good as far as it goes, but there's nothing like seeing what a bullet actually does once it strikes bone, flesh, and organs. Suffice it to say, it doesn't always mimic ballistic gelatin.

The other is that I get to hear some great CCW stories. Here's one of them: A recently-married couple living in one of the less desirable sections of Atlanta decided that for safety purposes they should get a handgun and learn how to shoot it. They bought a Glock 27 in .40, CCW permits, and made regular trips to an indoor range.

One evening, having just come back from the range, they cleaned and loaded the Glock and had left it on the coffee table in the living room, intending to put it up later. Shortly thereafter they heard a knock at the door and, expecting company, opened it without looking through the peephole.

A crazed male entered the apartment brandishing a handgun yelling, "Give it up, give it up!" The husband said that it was obvious the individual was high on drugs and there was absolutely no question in his mind that both he and his wife were going to die. Knowing this, he decided that his only option was to go down fighting.

The BG forced them both down a narrow hallway into the living room, screaming all the while. The husband was in the lead, followed by his wife, and then the BG, whose view of the living room was being blocked by the husband and wife.

The husband reached down, grabbed the Glock, pushed his wife aside, and fired one shot at the BG, striking him dead center in the middle of the chest. Although knocked to the floor, the BG still made a feeble attempt to retrieve his own gun. At this point, the husband let him hold another one to the chest. That ended that little problem.

Upon talking to the still-shaken husband, the police said he could remember little of what all the BG had said. As he recalled it, "All I can remember is that his first words were 'Give it up!" and his last words just as he saw the Glock were "Oh, (fill in the blank)!"

I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year, and I can tell you that when the chips are down, there's nothing that beats a 12-gauge. As for handguns, the name of the game is not only shot placement but how a properly-placed bullet acts once it gets there. I've seen folks killed by a bb to the eye and others survive after being hit by several well-placed rounds with a 9mm.

As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.

But then, I've seen most everything. I've seen a guy killed by a .416 Rigby, as well as a suicide to the head with a .44 Mag that didn't penetrate the skull on the other side.

The long and short of it is that you just don't know how ANY bullet will react to tissue and bone until you open them up and take a look. I've seen hardball fragment and hollowpoints act just like hardball. That said, shoot what you're comfortable with and place your shots well whatever caliber you use.

The .357 is gloriously effective. It's just that semi-autos are much more common than they used to be, so we see far more 9mm and .380 rounds on the autopsy table than we do the .38 and .357. Particularly among the gangbangers, the 9mm and .380 are the weapons of choice. The .357 is a wonderfully effective round for self-defense from what I've seen, but it's rare that we get them in anymore.

Again, this is from experience that I've made my calls on what works and what doesn't. I have no use for mouse guns like the .32, although it's a lot better to have a mouse gun than nothing at all. Personally, I'll never carry anything smaller than a .40 and prefer the .45. Day in and day out, results from the autopsy table show me that the .45 is the gun to have in a gun fight, provided you can shoot it well. If not, it's better to have something you can shoot well, even if it's a mouse gun, than something you can't.

Yeah, tell me about it, Smitty. I spent most of my life in Knoxville, TN and absolutely loved it. But then, my job is working in the Medical Examiner's Office, and, as you said, this is a target-rich environment. Having a job in an Atlanta morgue is job security at its best.

KRL, I'll take slow and heavy to light and fast any day. What I want is a round that plows through bone and tissue and expends ALL of its energy in the body. That said, the 125-grain .357 is marvelously effective.

S/W-Lifer, You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.

Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45.

Instead of individual replies to each of these questions, let me see if I can narrow some observations down into one long one. Forgive me if some of these have been in other posts, but they bear repeating.

First, ballistic gelatin, being all that's available for most bullet testing, is good as far as it goes but it's often far different from what we see in the morgue. A far more realistic scenario would be to dress up ballistic gelatin with a heavy coat of denim to mimic blue jeans, embed some bones obtained from a butcher shop, and throw in a few objects of varying densities to mimic organs. Try it again, and I think you'll see that this impressive wound cavity that's so often seen in ballistic gelatin goes down the tubes. The human body isn't just composed of one density as ballistic gelatin is, and the bullet does various things to various parts of the body as it passes through.

And that's why I think observations from a morgue are so important. Day in and day out, I get to see what works and what doesn't. More than that, I get to see what the same caliber does with various bullets weights and designs and how it reacts to different parts of the body. The best of all are when the gangbangers use the mix and match technique and shoot a variety of bullets in the same magazine and these bullets wind up in the same victim shot from the same gun. Hardball and hollowpoints in the same body from the same gun give a great comparion on the effectiveness of each.

So let me give a few thoughts here. First, as you've pretty well guessed by now, I'm a big fan of the .40 and .45 for personal defense, and for the same reasons. They're both big, slow-moving bullets. Of the two, I think big is more important. As I've said before, I want something that will plow through bone and keep going, not skip off of it. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a .380 or 9mm strike bone on a well-placed shot and skip off in a non-vital direction, leaving the BG free to return fire. With the .40 and .45, this seldom happens. Bone is in the body for basically two reasons--to give support as with the legs and spinal column and to protect major organs, such as the ribs protecting the heart or the skull protecting the brain. Skip a bullet off a support bone, such as the leg, and the BG will keep shooting. Break it, like you generally do with a .40 or .45, and the BG is going to hit the pavement and your chances of survival increase dramatically. It's the same with a shot to the chest. Skip a 9mm off the sternum (breastbone) and the fight continues; plow through the sternum with a .45 and, trust me, the fight is over. I'm just convinced that all things being equal, bigger is better when it comes to bullet size.

I also like bullets to expend all their energy in the body, not only for the protection of nearby civilians, but because I think it imparts more damage. I'm a bit less certain of this one, however, than I am about bullet size. Whether a bullet remains in the body is often as much a result of WHERE in the body it hit as what it was hit with. If hit solely in tissue, more often than not the bullet exits the body, regardless of what caliber it was; bone, on the other hand, can slow the bullet dramatically and leave it lodged in the body. As I said before, I once saw a .44 Magnum enter the skull point blank between the eyes and flatten and not exit on the inside of the skull on the back of the head. Amazing!

As for the .357 being a well-documented man-stopper, I'm guessing that you guys are right in assuming that it's mainly a function of velocity, but if someone wants to disagree I'll have no issue with it because it's a caliber we almost NEVER see anymore. When I was a cop in Atlanta it was the caliber of choice for law enforcement. Unfortunately, I only rarely got to see autopsies back then so I can't speak from vast experience. With the increasing use of semi-autos, the prevalence of revolver rounds such as the .38 and .357 has dropped dramatically, and although we still see the .38 with some frequency, we almost never get to see the .357 at autopsy. Still, in its most lethal form, it's a 125-grain bullet, the same as a 9mm in many cases, and the 9mm has a horrible reputation as a reliable man-stopper. Again, I'm only guessing that it's a function of the higher velocity of the .357. The .41 Magnum, for all its hype about being the next great law enforcement caliber, never came into widespread use and I can't remember ever digging one out at autopsy, so I'll leave this one alone. And almost without exception, the bullet weight I see most often with the .44 is the commercially-available 240 grains so I can't speak to anything besides that.

Remember, folks, that what I see on the autopsy table is most often BGs shooting BGs (sniff, sniff. Forgive me, my eyes are welling up with tears and I might have to continue this thread later. Ok, better now, so I'll continue) or, worse, BGs shooting good guys. In either case, BGs usually aren't students of ballistics, they aren't NRA members, they don't read Guns and Ammo, and they don't sit down at the Dillon 550 at night cranking out some new handload they've read about. They buy commercially-available ammo and, occasionally, add some personal touches they've read about in the latest issue of Gangbanger Magazine, such as filling the cavity of the hollowpoint with mercury (Yes, I've seen it. Worked just like hardball.)or deeply scoring the nose of the bullet (worked just like frangible except that it came apart on the outside of the other BGs clothing, which is why we had this one on the autopsy table (sniff). That said, if we want to evaluate various bullet weights and designs that aren't available commercially, we're once again left with ballistic gelatin, and the more I see on the autopsy table, the less confidence I have in the results.

Finally, just a couple of answers to questions: First, Houston is mostly right in assuming that multiple rounds seen from the 9mm and .380 are from the higher magazine capacity and contollability of the two calibers. Again, however, much of it is due to the fact that these two calibers just aren't getting the job done before the other BG returns fire and sends our BG to gangbanger heaven. Yes, the shots were eventually lethal, but many times not immediately so. And, yes, they CAN BE an effective weapon IF placed in a lethal area and IF the bullet gets the job done once it gets there instead of skipping off in a non-lethal direction. My advice, however, is to get a larger caliber such as a .40 or .45, practice until you're confortable with it, and use it as your carry gun, not the 9mm or .380. Practice will greatly reduce the first IF mentioned above, and a larger caliber will greatly reduce the other.


As for the .223 and the 7.62x39, yes, I've seen a few but not enough that I'd feel comfortable expounding on them. I wouldn't doubt the rifle instructor's description of the shredding of the organs a bit because I've seen it myself. Because the velocity of almost any rifle caliber is usually greater than with handguns, the temporary cavity caused by most rifle bullets is ALMOST always going to be bigger and cause more damage. In their military configurations, both calibers are FMJs, and most authorities (of which I'm not one) believe that yaw, a major factor in wound dynamics, begins in a shorter distance with the .223 than the 7.62x39 and thus imparts more damage, all else being equal. With increased yaw, the .223 begins to deform and even fragment while the 7.62x39, which usually has a steel core in addition to lead, often does not. Change the bullet design and you've just opened another can of worms. Let me say this very clearly to avoid alienating the rifle crowd: The explanation I've just given is what I've read by those who have seen far more wounds of both calibers than I have, not by what I've seen. We rarely see either caliber and I just don't think I've had enough experience with them to want to take it much farther than that. We see mostly handgun wounds, followed by shotguns, followed by rifles.

By now, most of us have made up our minds on what we'll carry, one way or the other. In 21 pages of posts what I've said has either confirmed what you've long believed, possibly caused some of you to switch or at least rethink your caliber choice, or angered some of you so badly that nothing I've said is going to change your mind. Again, that wasn't my intent. My intent was just to provide food for thought based on what I've SEEN in the morgue.

Some of you have asked for descriptions of injuries, but I'm not sure a description such as "the projectile struck the anterior superior iliac spine, was deflected posteroinferiorly, and became lodged in the auricular surface of the innominate approximately 7 mm superior to the greater sciatic notch" is quite as effective as saying "it broke the hip". Descriptions of soft tissue damage would be even more complex than that. Yes, I could go back through the autopsy reports and give a description of the wound either simply, in complex fashion, or somewhere in between but I just don't have time to do it. If my statements of, "Occasionally, I've seen the 9mm fragment or fail to reach the vital organs, whereas I don't think I can remember seeing a .45 do so" aren't sufficient, I'm afraid you're on your own.

And, yes, we could bat around theories such as Hatcher, LaGarde and many others as well as innumerable variables such as bullet design, bullet weight, velocity, and intermediate targets and still wind up right back at where we are now--in the typical caliber war with no concensus and no resolution. And I don't have time for that either.

As a parting word let me say what I've said many times before--that what I've tried to do is provide food for thought based on what I've SEEN, nothing more. Take it for only that and don't try to read more into it than is actually there. Think it over and if there's something you can use, fine. If you are adamant that your opinion is correct even though it differs from mine, that's ok too. But in either case remember this: The mind is like a parachute--it only works when it is open.

It's been fun, folks, but now I'm going to leave it with you.

Stay safe, stay patriotic, and stay off my autopsy table.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Technical
KEYWORDS: ballistics; banglist; morgue; terminal
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What with all the insane acts of mass murder lately, and all the equally insane calls by democraps to give the 2nd Amendment the heave-ho (or their fascistic impulse to impose a 10,000% tax on ammo sales), I've finally been spooked back into the ammo market to make certain I have an adequate supply of ammo for all the different calibers of weapons I own.

I knew the day was coming, but OMG, what was I thinking buying so many weapons in different calibers??? The only answer I can come up with is I have a gee-whiz personality and want to own all the gee-whiz toys I can lay my hands on. But, OMG, now I'm paying the price and don't like it one bit!! I've already dropped thousands and haven't even secured a decent supply for half my guns (which I'm figuring at approx. 1,000 practice rounds to start with and 250-500 self-defense rounds, or so -- although I recognize the latter is WAY too optimistic... Who do I think I am anyway, John Wayne???).

I should probably buy 5,000 rounds of practice ammo for each gun and one small box of self-defense ammo. My last humiliating trip to the range with my newbie nephew strongly suggests it. This isn't like riding a bike; you may not forget, but you do get incredibly rusty with lack of practice.

Anyway, good article. I love his perspective. Has me thinking I should get rid of my mouse guns and save myself a bundle in the process. Then maybe I could buy that FN Five-seveN I've got my eye on! :-)

1 posted on 08/10/2012 10:44:24 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

The BG?? Ballistic gelatin? Is that what we call them now?

2 posted on 08/10/2012 10:48:19 AM PDT by JoeDetweiler
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To: JoeDetweiler

“BG” = BAD GUY... sigh...

3 posted on 08/10/2012 10:55:43 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: LibWhacker

This makes me very comfortable knowing that I have a .357 next to the bed and in the car. Sure they are revolvers but that’s what I started with and still gravitate to.

Well, I did until that boating accident at least. Tough luck that.

4 posted on 08/10/2012 10:57:26 AM PDT by freedomlover
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To: LibWhacker

The problem with this article and his issue with the 9mm is that most gangbangers are using the cheap walmart ammo. there is a huge difference between 115gn FMJ CCI blazer and Federal Hydrashock 147grn JHPs. in a 9mm.

Flame away

5 posted on 08/10/2012 10:58:52 AM PDT by BobinIL
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To: US Navy Vet

I like mine better :-)

6 posted on 08/10/2012 10:59:19 AM PDT by JoeDetweiler
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To: LibWhacker

I shoot .452 in pistol and larger in rifles.

A 9MM will get you a fair fight, a .45 ACP most likely will end the fight on your first shot.

Big slow calibres are the best.

7 posted on 08/10/2012 11:00:42 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: LibWhacker

You may wish to start reloading. Much cheaper and more accurate than factory rounds.

Way cheaper.

8 posted on 08/10/2012 11:02:06 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: freedomlover

Didn’t hear about your boating accident. Did you lose your gun overboard?

I gave my .357 mag to my brother because he lived in such a rotten neighborhood and had nothing for self-defense. Then he gave it to another guy who promptly had it stolen from him! Wish I had it back.

9 posted on 08/10/2012 11:02:06 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: BobinIL

No flames from me. That’s EXACTLY how I’ve justified purchasing my 9mm’s.

10 posted on 08/10/2012 11:05:11 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

Thanks for posting this. I’m going to have to rethink a few things after reading it.

11 posted on 08/10/2012 11:06:10 AM PDT by GBA
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To: BobinIL

No flames here, but you can also buy the Winchester 147 gr JHP at Wallyworld for about $15.00 for 50 rds.

12 posted on 08/10/2012 11:09:04 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: buffaloguy

I’ve thought about that. How hard is it to learn and how many calibers will one reloading rig (is that the correct terminology?) handle? Where do I learn, what’s the best tutorial, beginners book, etc.? What all will I need besides the main rig, dies, jigs, etc.? Who sells the best equipment, etc.? Thank you very much for any time you put into your answer. Even a partial answer will be very much appreciated, thank you.

13 posted on 08/10/2012 11:11:00 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: JoeDetweiler

The .357 in a semi-auto problem has been solved.

I’ve met Dan. He’s a heck of a good shot and fun to BS with. His personal carry gun has a trigger on it that is like nothing I have ever felt. Zero creep and a break so smooth the hammer drop almost seems to happen by itself.

I carry a 10mm because the external and terminal ballistics are about half way between the venerable .357 Magnum and the .41 Magnum. Although, if I can ever afford it, I’d love to add a Coonan to my collection.

14 posted on 08/10/2012 11:12:20 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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You’re very welcome. I was hoping others would find it useful. Thanks for the feedback.

15 posted on 08/10/2012 11:14:05 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: freedomlover
The best, smoothest, easiest to shoot well pistol I've tried so far is a buddy's S&W .357 magnum.

Unfortunately, he let his wife shoot it once and now she loves it so much she won't give it back to him.

16 posted on 08/10/2012 11:15:13 AM PDT by GBA
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To: LibWhacker
Too bad he doesn't mention any battle rifle cartridges. .308 and .30-06 are the zombie killers of choice.

When it comes to home defense, it's time we started thinking Somalia instead of Suburbia. Pistols for home defense are so twentieth-century. Today's home invader is likely to be insane, accompanied by a small army of likeminded invaders or SWAT-ted out in kevlar. Rapid, deeply penetrating, decisively wounding hits are needed. Nothing delivers them like a semi-auto battle rifle.

17 posted on 08/10/2012 11:15:57 AM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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To: LibWhacker
In the movie My Blue Heaven, a comedy with Steve Martin and Rick Moranis, Steve was a criminal witness against the mob on the Witness Protection program. He testified in front of a panel, questioning him and they asked him what caliber gun they use expecting him to say the big calibers. Steve said those big guns are so messy and spray brains all over he place but the little 22 goes into the skull and ricochets all over the place inside there and does not come out the other side. So that's the desired hit piece.
18 posted on 08/10/2012 11:19:23 AM PDT by fish hawk (phobos)
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To: buffaloguy

So I’m guessing my 158 grain 357 hollowpoint which is jacketed is okie dokie. nevermind it is....

19 posted on 08/10/2012 11:20:00 AM PDT by VaRepublican (I would propagate taglines but I don't know how. But bloggers do.)
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To: LibWhacker
Dillon, RCBS, and Lee are pretty much the top 3 players in the reloading market.

You'll need dies for each caliber you plan to reload for (a sizing/decapping die, a seating die, and for some calibers a belling die). Something to measure grains of powder. Something to seat primers in the brass. And something to clean your brass with.

I have both a single stage RCBS and a Dillon 550b. A small balance scale and the powder measure for my Dillon are what I use to see how much powder goes in each shell. I have two different vibratory tumblers for cleaning the brass. A lee hand-held priming tool with a built-in primer flip tray rounds things out.

For what it sounds like you are wanting, I'd go with a single stage Lee or RCBS loader. Sometimes, you can find a basic kit with everything you'd need to get started other than brass/primer/powder/projectiles.

Youtube has a variety of videos on reloading and how various folks approach it. Check a library for books on reloading. Use the recommended load data for the powder/caliber your are loading for as your starting loads. keep track of what works and be very wary of folks giving you the recipe for their latest OMGWTFBBQSHTF loads.

20 posted on 08/10/2012 11:20:14 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: fish hawk

I remember that scene. Very funny... and very true, I think.

21 posted on 08/10/2012 11:25:24 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

9 x 23

Capacity of the 9 mm
Stopping power of the .357 mag

Not much in the way of commercial ammo (mostly reload)
Not much in the way of standard guns (mostly custom builds)

22 posted on 08/10/2012 11:28:41 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Las Vegas Ron
Lots of practice rounds is a good idea. Burning a couple of mags of what you will load for self defense as the last of the day is an even better idea. Finish off your practice with what you will load for defense, in whatever caliber. If you load 147 gr 9mm as your defensive rounds, knowing what that round does to your sight picture following each shot is important to competency.
23 posted on 08/10/2012 11:30:11 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: LibWhacker

I take these things with a grain of salt. The man who taught me how to really shoot was a Viet Nam vet, and longtime member of the army rifle team. What did he carry as his personal sidearm in the civilian world? A Ruger Mark III.

24 posted on 08/10/2012 11:34:00 AM PDT by Melas (u)
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To: Dead Corpse; LibWhacker
Lee equipment costs 1/2 what RCBS does and probably 1/4 what Dillon charges. I've used Lee equipment for 30+ years and never had a single peice of it fail (which is more than I can say for any of the others, and I've used them all). It's not pretty, elegant or feature-rich, but it is solidly reliable and does the job just fine.

The only thing on my bench that isn't Lee is a big honking Hornady scale. The Lee scales are twee little things made of plastic. They might work great, but I don't trust them.

25 posted on 08/10/2012 11:35:01 AM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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To: Dead Corpse

Thank you very much. I’m going to check it out now and see what it costs to get started. I just dropped a thousand bucks for ammo for my .40 Browning HP and I have another three pistols and two rifles to make purchases for. So if I can get started reloading for a thousand bucks, that’s a pretty good deal I think... Not to mention that, when and if the balloon goes up people will be crying for reloading equipment. Thank you again. Very useful info.

26 posted on 08/10/2012 11:35:17 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

One thought for shotgun guys. My 12 ga. is loaded with the last two rounds in 3-1/2 inch magnum buckshot, a whole lot more kick than the Federal Reduced Recoil 2-3/4 inch rounds loaded for home defense. In the event that I lose count, and if I end up needing that many shots, (1) I want a reminder that I’m almost empty, and (2) I’m a whole lot more interested in hitting hard and a whole lot less concerned about over-penetration.

27 posted on 08/10/2012 11:35:55 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: LibWhacker

Reloading can be a hobby in itself. My son and I have been reloading for over 25 years.

Started out with a single stage press, and graduated to a multi-stage, auto advance press when the ammo count needed to be higher (cause and effect?). I really like Dillon presses, but I’ve had great luck with a Forster five-stage auto advancing manual press, too.

First set of dies was .38/.357. Next, added 9mm (for his habit), and followed that up with .45ACP dies. Then got into rifle reloading and settled on .223 as the caliber of choice.

He has since added a couple of larger rifle calibers to his menu. I’ve pretty much settled on the .45 and .223 for my needs. Between us we reload probably 5000 - 6000 rounds a year.

Good setup will include a good solid press, good brand dies (carbide sizers, IMO), a decent hi-cap tumbler for case cleaning, and several really good reloading manuals (Sierra, Hornady, etc.).

If you add in shotgun (lighter press), you would be complete.

Powder, primers, bullets, and you are off to the races.

Have FUN! It’s a great hobby. Quick Internet search will get you started. Or a visit to a large sporting goods shop.

28 posted on 08/10/2012 11:39:13 AM PDT by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2013: Change we can look forward to.)
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To: jboot
Dillon's warranty cannot be matched. Easy set-up allows me to switch calibers in about 30 seconds. I have 3 different reloading blocks set up that I only have to make minor adjustments to in between loading for that caliber. I got my Dillon off of GunBroker. Picked up their maintenance kit and it runs like new.

I've heard good things about Lee loaders, I just haven't ever used one.

29 posted on 08/10/2012 11:39:25 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: Dead Corpse

I like the Dillon ads. Always a lovely lady in the ads. Hey, sue me, I’m a red-blooded American!!!!

30 posted on 08/10/2012 11:40:02 AM PDT by jdsteel (Give me freedom, not more government.)
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To: jboot

I’ve got a .308, but it’s a hunting rifle. I absolutely NEED an AR-15, or two, or three. But I refuse to buy one as configured and approved by those traitorous scum in Sacramento. I should’ve bought one years ago, but I was too busy buying handguns. Now I can’t legally buy what I want. Have to get out of this effed-up state.

31 posted on 08/10/2012 11:42:09 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Dead Corpse
"The .357 in a semi-auto problem has been solved."

You need not even get as exotic as the Coonan. The .357 Sig, which is essentially a .40 S&W case bottle-necked to .357 has ballistics that compare favorably with full horsepower .357 magnum rounds. Here are a list of LE agencies who have chosen the .357 Sig as their round of choice:

Alameda County
Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357 SIG)
Dallas, Texas Police
Federal Air Marshals
Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) - P229
Keizer Police Department, Oregon
La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department
Laurence County Sheriff's Office, Tennessee
Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of)
Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio
Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office
Maine Game Wardens (P226)
Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO
Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office
New Jersey Division of Fish & Game
New Mexico State Police
Niles Police Dept, Ohio
Northwood Police Dept, ND
NC Highway Patrol
NC Wake County Sheriff's Department
NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers
Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas (Sigpro)
Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Orange Police Dept, CT (sig pro, SP2340 .357)
Orlando PD (plainclothes officers)
Oxford, Mississippi
Richmond, Virginia
Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC
Springfield, IL
Tennessee Highway Patrol
Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio (Glock 31)
Texas, DPS
United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG)
Special Agents - P229
United States Secret Service
Virginia State Police

32 posted on 08/10/2012 11:42:57 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Dead Corpse

Single stage? Is that one pull of the lever equals one finished bullet or just one step in the process?

33 posted on 08/10/2012 11:44:53 AM PDT by fella ("As it was before Noah, so shall it be again.")
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To: LibWhacker
$1k on .40 S&W ammo? Please tell me you at least bought from some place like and not from Cabela's or Dick's...

$299 shipped per 1000.

Exact same ammo from Cabela's would run you $360 before s&h.

34 posted on 08/10/2012 11:44:58 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: Dead Corpse

It depends what your goals are. I am not a high-volume loader, so the Lee turret press is all I need. If I were going to turn out 10K+ rounds a year, I’d need a Dillon progressive setup.

35 posted on 08/10/2012 11:47:04 AM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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To: jdsteel

LOL, I do get their catalog. It’s not too popular with the Better Half, but I need to keep up with industry trends! ;-)

36 posted on 08/10/2012 11:48:34 AM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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To: LibWhacker many calibers will one reloading rig (is that the correct terminology?) handle?

A typical press will handle just about any rifle/pistol cartridge except for the very largest rifle cartridges (.50 BMG, for example).

Each different cartridge will require its own set of dies, which run about $30 "or so" per set.

37 posted on 08/10/2012 11:50:35 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: fella
One step.

There are progressive loaders that do multiple operations per pull of the handle. Some are manual indexing, others are automatic. The Dillon RL550b is a manual index with 4 stages. Some of the larger loaders can have 5 or even 6 stages to incorporate trimming accessories or having separate seating and crimping dies. I've even seen it where some folks will use a sizing die as a final stage just to ensure the case didn't bulge during one of the other operations.

Attention to detail pays off big.

38 posted on 08/10/2012 11:51:20 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: jboot
I load about 500 a month between 10mm and .223. A few .357, .45-70, and some .30-30 as well.

I buy my 12ga, .410, and 7mm factory as it just doesn't make sense to reload for 'em. Either because the ammo is cheap or I don't shoot it very often.

39 posted on 08/10/2012 11:55:04 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: LibWhacker
Cali is a mess. I gave up on any California dreams many years ago. That said, the AR isn't a battle rifle. Last I heard, you can still legally buy an M1 Garand in Cali. I'd feel better armed with one of them than I would with an AR-15, even without the big banana mag. Stuff you shoot with an M1 goes down and stays down.

This little beastie is probably still Cali legal and would be VERY good protection from almost anything on God's green earth:

40 posted on 08/10/2012 11:58:24 AM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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To: Pollster1
I do the same thing with my 12 ga. house gun, which is loaded with #1 buck all the way down to the second to last shell, which is 00 buck and the very last shell, which is a 12 ga. slug. I figure if my attacker hasn't gone down after all that, my hat's off to him! ;-)

BTW, what is it with #1 buck? Have they quit making it? I'm having a heck of a time finding it in any kind of decent quantity (say 500 shells). I'm guessing I'll be able to load it myself if I buy the equipment, no?

41 posted on 08/10/2012 11:58:48 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Dead Corpse

Sounds like you need a progressive rig. I haven’t done that kind of volume since the Hillary primer scare back in ‘94.

42 posted on 08/10/2012 12:01:19 PM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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To: Joe 6-pack
Because the .357 sig is a necked case in a semi-auto pistol. FTF's and stove pipes are pretty common from what I've heard. Also, .357 sig /= .357 magnum for power. 158gr at over 1400 fps is a lot more energy than the enemic 147gr at 1200 fps. Even at a more comparable 128gr, the .357 Magnum clocks in an extra 250 ft/lbs over the sig.

It's like the V6 vs V8 argument. A bigger block will ALWAYS produce more horsepower. No matter how you try to tart up the smaller motor.

Size and speed count in the ballistics world. More of one at the expense of the other will not have the results of one that has a good balance of BOTH.

43 posted on 08/10/2012 12:03:22 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: LibWhacker

Reloading is not difficult if you have the right temperament.
You need to be cautious and methodical in your approach. Following instructions is important.

A medium priced single stage press will reload almost everything except the largest rifle cartridges. You need a heavier press for the large ones.

I’m partial to RCBS, but Lee, Redding, Dillon and others are just as good.

Get a good reloading book & read up on it before buying anything.

44 posted on 08/10/2012 12:04:23 PM PDT by jimbobfoster
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To: jboot
I try to shoot once or twice a month. Mostly out at my in-laws farm. No one cares if I'm drawing from the hip, moving while shooting, doing double-taps, etc...

I'd love to get into 3-gun once my kids are a bit older. My Daughter has expressed an interest in shooting an AR and I've started picking up various pieces to put one together for her. I had an A2 upper and some other parts laying around that I can use.

45 posted on 08/10/2012 12:07:04 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: jboot

Oh, thanks for clarifying that for me. I’ve looked at the M1 Garand program before. It seemed like you had to jump through so many hoops, I figured what the heck. Maybe buy a new one through Springfield? Don’t they have a model called the M1A1? No, I have wanted one for a long, long time, but guns are sooooo darn expensive. Thanks again.

46 posted on 08/10/2012 12:10:19 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: jimbobfoster

Wise advice. I’ll do that. It’s going to take me a while to decide which brand to go with. It’s not like I can call up my Consumers’ Reports account. It’ll be a tough decision, I can see that. And it’s going to be made more difficult by my utter lack of experience (well, I helped a friend reload some shotgun shells over 40 years ago, but that hardly counts now) and basic knowledge in the subject. Thank you.

47 posted on 08/10/2012 12:16:26 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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“The best, smoothest, easiest to shoot well pistol I've tried so far is a buddy's S&W .357 magnum.”


LUV mine, Colt Python 4” loaded with win Super X 145gr Silver tip HP and a speed loader with 6 more of the same. VERY accurate piece and I shoot it well. Traded a fellow a Star model BM, 3 mags and about 1000 rnds of practice hand loads for it. Told the fellow he was screwing himself, he told me the Colt kicked too hard and made too much noise (Pu**y), once in a while you get lucky. The Colt was mint, The star was well fired. “My cold dead fingers, etc.etc.”

48 posted on 08/10/2012 12:20:19 PM PDT by mongo141 (Revolution ver. 2.0, just a matter of when, not a matter of if!)
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To: LibWhacker
Then maybe I could buy that FN Five-seveN I've got my eye on! :-)

The thing I find most intriguing about this round is the big, black, hole you find when you go looking for first hand reports on it's effectiveness.

Lots of hearsay and naysay available from "expert" opinion peddlers, but damn little in the way of After Action Reports, or terminal ballistics out there for a round used by so many LE agencies and foreign military organizations.

It would seem to me the best way to employ this round is to shoot "at" something, as opposed to just trying to score hits on the BG.

49 posted on 08/10/2012 12:21:07 PM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: LibWhacker
Springfield no longer offers M1 Garands, unless there is a custom service that I am not aware of. The only company I can think of selling "new" Garands is Fulton Armory. If you click the picture of the Garand that I linked above, you will go to their web page. They are expensive, but then again they will last several lifetimes, unlike an AR.

CMP is a good program and they still have good guns for (slightly) under $1k. You can clear most of their hoops by joining the Garand Collector's Association, which as far as I can tell exists for the sole purpose of helping folks get guns from CMP.

50 posted on 08/10/2012 12:22:09 PM PDT by jboot (OPSEC. It's a killjoy, but it may save your life someday.)
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