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India to launch its first home-built nuclear submarine
The Telegraph ^ | August 9th, 2012 | Dean Nelson

Posted on 08/12/2012 7:19:44 PM PDT by JerseyanExile

INS Arihant, planned to be the first of five submarines of its class, will be ready to begin sea trials, said Admiral Nirmal Verma, the navy commander. When the vessel eventually becomes operational, India will be able to launch nuclear missiles from the sea, land and air, joining a handful of countries possessing the "nuclear triad".

The strategic aim is to deter China and Pakistan and establish India as the leading power in the Indian Ocean. "INS Arihant is steadily progressing towards becoming operational," said Adml Verma. "We are pretty close to putting it to sea."

The navy was poised to "complete the triad, and our maritime and nuclear doctrines will then be aligned to ensure our nuclear insurance comes from the sea," added Adml Verma. "Given our unequivocal 'no first-use commitment', a retaliatory strike capability that is credible and invulnerable is an imperative."

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: india; indianmilitary; indiannavy; nuclearsubmarines

1 posted on 08/12/2012 7:19:55 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: JerseyanExile

2 posted on 08/12/2012 7:21:20 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2898271/posts?page=119#119)
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To: JerseyanExile

Really?
They haven’t figured out chairs.


3 posted on 08/12/2012 7:25:41 PM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: JerseyanExile

From the article:

Nonetheless, Adml Verma’s statement is likely to provoke
a strong reaction from Beijing, which warned India
against ‘arrogance’ earlier this year following its
successful launch of the Agni IV intercontinental
ballistic missile, a land-based weapon which can strike
any city in China.

Mohan Guruswamy, from the Centre for Policy Alternatives
in New Delhi, said the imminent launch of the new
submarine “changed the equation [between India and China]
considerably.”

He pointed out that India ws also planning to launch six
nuclear-powered attack submarines, adding that within
seven years the country should have a varied fleet which
would, in theory, be able to block Chinese access to the
Indian Ocean via the Strait of Malacca. “They could be
sitting off Karachi – or China. It’s an investment for
the future,” said Mr Guruswamy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9464590/India-to-launch-its-first-home-built-nuclear-submarine.html


4 posted on 08/12/2012 7:36:44 PM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: Born to Conserve

> They haven’t figured out chairs.

Good for them! An MD’s recommendation is to not sit on chairs but to sit on a mat on the floor Asian-style. Says sitting on a chair is not good for your posture, eating or internal organs. Lots of folks now use stand-up desks too.


5 posted on 08/12/2012 7:41:00 PM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Ping.


6 posted on 08/12/2012 7:41:00 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: JerseyanExile

Theres several BILLION Chinese just a hop skip and a jump across the border.. Maybe the Indians can nuke themselves when they attack India.. OR some can escape in the submarines..


7 posted on 08/12/2012 7:46:00 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: JerseyanExile

Maybe they should outsource design/construction to the USA.


8 posted on 08/12/2012 7:47:00 PM PDT by StolarStorm
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To: JerseyanExile; Born to Conserve

In January 1988 India leased a Charlie I class submarine from the USSR for three years. The lease expired in January 1991 and the boat was returned to to the USSR. Arihant is based on the Soviet/Russian Charlie and Akula classes.


9 posted on 08/12/2012 7:56:41 PM PDT by moonshot925
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To: hosepipe

> Theres several BILLION Chinese just a hop skip and a jump
> across the border.. Maybe the Indians can nuke themselves
> when they attack India.. OR some can escape in the
> submarines..

Surely you jest, because their populations are close and China’s population is not “several billion”:

List of countries by population

1 China 1,347,350,000 December 31, 2011 19.16% Official estimate

2 India 1,210,193,422 March 1, 2011 17.21% 2011 census

[...]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population


10 posted on 08/12/2012 8:04:53 PM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: StolarStorm; JerseyanExile

When they call 1-800-Support, where will the call go?


11 posted on 08/12/2012 8:18:20 PM PDT by jwsea55
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To: Jyotishi; hosepipe
Surely you jest, because their populations are close and China’s population is not “several billion”:

There has been some calculations using the satellite reconnaissance that calls to question the official Chinese population estimates as being understated by 50%.

It has been awhile but I believe Charlie Smith of Softwar.net has been one of those that has covered this issue. I am not sure where he would have written this.

12 posted on 08/12/2012 8:27:25 PM PDT by jwsea55
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To: JerseyanExile

Maybe they can hook this sub into their 3rd world power grid and perform double duty. ;-}


13 posted on 08/12/2012 8:35:28 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: jwsea55

I’m somewhat... skeptical of the idea that one can just “misplace” 1.3 billion people.


14 posted on 08/12/2012 8:35:28 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: hosepipe

“Theres several BILLION Chinese just a hop skip and a jump across the border.”

Not exactly. There’s this little mountain range called the Himalayas in the way. More like a giant leap.


15 posted on 08/12/2012 8:48:28 PM PDT by ScottfromNJ
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To: JerseyanExile
I’m somewhat... skeptical of the idea that one can just “misplace” 1.3 billion people.

That is exactly point of the analysis. The numbers that can be calculated by Western intelligence don't remotely match what the Chinese are posturing as true.

Chinese have an official GDP growth rate that almost all Western economists are skeptical of. Is it so hard to believe if the Chinese misstate on one official fact they won't misstate another? Why would they understate the population? It shows how impoverished that country really is.

Why would they overstate the growth rate? To keep the discontentment from building. Smith has been pretty dead on right with the material he has been willing to release.

16 posted on 08/12/2012 9:06:34 PM PDT by jwsea55
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To: JerseyanExile

Why so many negative comments? A strong India helps counter-balance China, and that’s good for everyone, including China.


17 posted on 08/12/2012 9:11:57 PM PDT by I Shall Endure
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To: jwsea55

GDP estimates are by their very nature arbitrary, and can be easily manipulated. There is a major difference between GDP estimates for China being too high, and China actually having double the population. China isn’t some hermit kingdom - westerners can readily move around the vast majority of the country. Why would every international statistical agency co-operate in covering up the existence of more then a billion people?

Just what sources do you have for this?


18 posted on 08/12/2012 9:23:49 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: ScottfromNJ

[ Not exactly. There’s this little mountain range called the Himalayas in the way. More like a giant leap. ]

Not thru Bangladesh... and then from Burma by the sea..


19 posted on 08/12/2012 9:29:20 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: jwsea55

Theater nukes would make the difference..
Probably the CLintoons sold them all that info to make them... or Zero-Obama..


20 posted on 08/12/2012 9:31:23 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Jyotishi

[ Surely you jest, because their populations are close and China’s population is not “several billion”: ]

You’re not good with war... are you a butcher or candle maker?


21 posted on 08/12/2012 9:33:42 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe

You need to brush up on geography. Between China and India sits the tallest and longest and widest mountain range on the globe...the Himalaya’s.

For thousands of years of past history, the only land access to India was the 2 passes...the Khyber pass and the Karakoram pass. These are located in NW direction from India, The Mongols & Arab invaders used those routes 13 centuries back.
China is located in North-East direction from India.


22 posted on 08/12/2012 9:57:13 PM PDT by entropy12 (Hate is the most insidious emotion, it will encourage cancer cells in your body.)
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To: entropy12

You be wrong...


23 posted on 08/12/2012 10:09:24 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Jyotishi

Grow up sitting on the floor?


24 posted on 08/12/2012 10:22:41 PM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: JerseyanExile
Unfortunately, I don't have a source fluttering around in my head. It was in the mid to late 90s when Smith talked about it.

Charlie Smith has written for quite a few publications, it is hard to keep tract where it might have ended up (Newsmax, his own site Software.net and some intelligence and business oriented intelligence reports). I will do a little digging and see if I can come up with anything. Smith is amazing with what he unearths. Check out the link to his old site. Unfortunately, I don't have is email address.

25 posted on 08/12/2012 10:28:19 PM PDT by jwsea55
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To: JerseyanExile
Here are just a couple of articles talking about the underestimated city populations in China: In China, One Quarter of All City Residents are Not Counted and Rising regional inequality in China: Fact or artefact (page 7).

The real issue for the intelligence world came when they started doing grid counts of people in the rural areas of China. There were just too many people in grids to match with the public Chinese statistics (by a factor 50%). I haven't been able to find a source yet...and I still need to get some work done tonight.

26 posted on 08/12/2012 11:06:14 PM PDT by jwsea55
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To: StolarStorm
Maybe they should outsource design/construction to the USA.

Why, so that they can crash into each other, rocks or fishing boats?

LOL!

27 posted on 08/12/2012 11:35:30 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: JerseyanExile

If that picture shows their submarine they need to go back to the drawing board... (It’s not like someone would illustrate an article about a submarine with a pic of a missile, right?)


28 posted on 08/13/2012 3:48:57 AM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: hosepipe
“Maybe the Indians can nuke themselves when they attack India.. OR some can escape in the submarines..”

Maybe you should apply for the job of Secretary of Defense to Obama. Obama needs talented people like you.

29 posted on 08/13/2012 6:13:16 AM PDT by ravager
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To: Moltke
Its not the fault of the submarine or the designers that the journalists put up the wrong picture with the article.

Here is what Arihant looks like.
http://www.info4security.com/Pictures/web/o/r/d/INS_Arihant.jpg

30 posted on 08/13/2012 6:31:31 AM PDT by ravager
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To: hosepipe

Seriously, try some geography lessons.


31 posted on 08/13/2012 6:36:56 AM PDT by ravager
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To: ravager

ROFLMAO!


32 posted on 08/13/2012 7:29:58 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: jwsea55
The first article claims that the urban population is higher then the official count. However, it doesn't say that these people don't exist on the census reports - instead it says the following:

Due to the hukou system, 60 years of migration to cities from the rural countryside is not recorded by the official Chinese census. Migrants continue to be classified by their rural hukou and counted in the official census as residents of the rural area from which they came. Even the children of rural residents living in a city are counted as “residing” in the rural area with which their father’s family or grandfather’s family was classified in 1951.

The second article is more interesting, and it does seem to support a potentially higher population for China then the official census records. However, there are few important qualifiers on that. First, they estimated the population of china to only be 22% higher than reported, not 100%. Second, if I am reading that study properly, they are claiming that many national census reports around the globe are too low. By their estimates, Brazil is under-reporting by 19%, Turkey by 40%, Canada by 32%, Thailand by 26%, and so on. Even the US population is actually 7% higher in their opinion. So this is less a case of China conspiring to hide their population, as it is census results globally being inaccurate.

33 posted on 08/13/2012 7:49:12 AM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: JerseyanExile
Wow, you were a little bit more thorough than me on your read. You asked for some info on the undercounting. I included the first article because it gives a partial explanation why Chinese official estimates are worthless.

As I mentioned, the real analysis was done with grid counts of the population though satellite imagery. I will see if I can get a hold of Smith. It may make take a few days with my schedule and I don't have his email address in my current contact file.

Do you ever wonder why China put so many of the huge ghost cities out in the middle of nowhere? A lot of those cities make no sense when analysts try and compare the official government line with their actions. I read a piece a couple of years ago, that the Chinese have something like 2 million more rural peasants moving (or trying to move) the big cities for jobs and a better life than the cities are capable of handling. There is supposedly a lot discontent with the rural population and the meager existence they have.

I did some searches on population grid counts and Chinese underestimating. Didn't find anything. As I mentioned, the piece was written sometime in the 90s and may have been before the internet (and search) became of age.

34 posted on 08/13/2012 8:23:47 AM PDT by jwsea55
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To: ravager

Thanks for the link. But you know I was joking, right?


35 posted on 08/13/2012 11:13:54 AM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: ravager

> To: hosepipe

>> “Maybe the Indians can nuke themselves when they attack
>> India.. OR some can escape in the submarines..”

> Maybe you should apply for the job of Secretary of Defense
> to Obama. Obama needs talented people like you.

Obama is trying hard to bring down America’s defenses already.


36 posted on 08/13/2012 11:17:05 AM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: ravager

> Here is what Arihant looks like.
>
> http://www.info4security.com/Pictures/web/o/r/d/INS_Arihant.jpg

Thanks. It looks a lot better than the Obama-funded electric vehicle that blew up and endangered the neighborhood.


37 posted on 08/13/2012 11:21:50 AM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: Moltke; ravager

You are both wrong.

Anyone can clearly see this is a very scary automatic weapon.

/journalist


38 posted on 08/13/2012 11:24:00 AM PDT by freedomlover
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To: StolarStorm

> Maybe they should outsource design/construction to the USA.

Why, so unions can make more money and fund liberal campaigns?


39 posted on 08/13/2012 11:26:34 AM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: I Shall Endure
Why so many negative comments?

Freedom of speech is great.

It helps us to identify the idiots.

40 posted on 08/13/2012 11:27:44 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Jyotishi

So if they went to war it would just be mother nature evening things out.


41 posted on 08/13/2012 11:45:57 AM PDT by ichabod1 (Spriiingtime for islam, and tyranny. Winter for US and frieeends. . .)
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To: ichabod1
And that's good thing? How about a US-Russia nuclear war?
42 posted on 08/13/2012 11:53:07 AM PDT by ravager
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To: freedomlover

Heh. Someone must’ve added an ICBM image to the AK47 column of that “firearms guide for journalists” graphic since I’ve last seen it. Thanks for the update!


43 posted on 08/13/2012 12:24:03 PM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: ravager

[ Seriously, try some geography lessons. ]

I read Sun Tsu... I suggest knowing more about Burma..


44 posted on 08/13/2012 12:44:34 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: ravager

[ Maybe you should apply for the job of Secretary of Defense to Obama. Obama needs talented people like you. ]

He already has many talented people..
Like those that got Myth Romney selected as republican candidate..
Running the inventor of Romney-care against the inventor of Obama-care was pure genius..

Republicans are such dopes.. quite delusional..


45 posted on 08/13/2012 12:48:38 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: ravager

Ultimately, nukular war is more likely than anything else as the means nature chooses to correct overpopulation. Man’s dark side is nature in action.


46 posted on 08/13/2012 1:08:11 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Spriiingtime for islam, and tyranny. Winter for US and frieeends. . .)
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To: JerseyanExile
Per our previous posts about China having 2.5 billion. I contacted the Chuck Wilder who was part of the radio program which ran the interview with Charlie Smith. He seems to have the same recollection about this interview as I have. The contact info for Smith is no longer any good to validate this story. Based on the fact it was Smith I feel extremely comfortable about the story's veracity.

Chuck passed a long this link: Chinese population may swell to 1.5b

Follow the comment's links from the article.

47 posted on 08/14/2012 12:52:44 PM PDT by jwsea55
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