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More Fluctuations Found in Isotopic Clocks
Institute for Creation Research ^ | 8-17-2012 | Brian Thomas

Posted on 08/17/2012 11:21:22 AM PDT by fishtank

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1 posted on 08/17/2012 11:21:33 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank

So does that mean Mick Jagger is even older than we thought?


2 posted on 08/17/2012 11:31:53 AM PDT by Forrestfire (("To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." Theodore Roosevelt))
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To: fishtank
New system could predict solar flares, give advance warning


3 posted on 08/17/2012 11:33:20 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank; MrB

:: More Fluctuations Found in Isotopic Clocks ::

Fluck you Amellicans, too!


4 posted on 08/17/2012 11:33:55 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
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To: fishtank

This will take some research on my part.

BTW, Go Boilers!


5 posted on 08/17/2012 11:37:06 AM PDT by 103198
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To: fishtank
Looks like there's some BIG grant money on the way.

That means ALL RESULTS....absolutely ALL RESULTS....are worthless.

Now let's talk about global warming...

6 posted on 08/17/2012 11:37:51 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Forrestfire
It just means that Mick Jagger was never as young as he acted.

haha


7 posted on 08/17/2012 11:39:16 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Sacajaweau

I am convinced that a creationist view of the universe is FAR FAR FAR more interesting for science (and science funding) than is the materialist view.


8 posted on 08/17/2012 11:41:32 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

You remembered that was one of my fav jokes...


9 posted on 08/17/2012 11:43:03 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working fors)
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To: fishtank

Doesn’t matter if dating is a few percent off. The world is not 6,000 or so years old.


10 posted on 08/17/2012 11:43:51 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (A deep-fried storm is coming, Mr Obama.)
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To: fishtank

Creationism is useless to science. There is a reason why companies who want profit hire scientists not creationists. Because science is useful.


11 posted on 08/17/2012 11:45:43 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: fishtank

“science” is repeatable.

Making conjectures about the past is not “science”, inherently, because time only flows one way.


12 posted on 08/17/2012 11:46:26 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working fors)
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To: fishtank
Physics Today editor Johanna Miller recently wrote, "Standard Pb-Pb dating protocol uses a 238U/235U ratio of 137.88 with zero uncertainty. But several recent studies have cast doubt on that number."

No support there for a young (~6000 year) earth:

"Now, in a systematic, high-precision study, Joe Hiess and colleagues of the British Geological Survey have found not only the highest 238U/235U anomalies yet seen (more than 5 parts per thousand) but also a mean 238U/235U ratio almost 0.5 ppt less than the established value. As a result, lead–lead dates could be wrong by a million years or more. A lesser-used isotopic chronometer, based on samarium-146’s decay into neodymium-142, could be in for an even bigger revision: Michael Paul (Hebrew University, Jerusalem) and collaborators have measured the 146Sm half-life to be 68 million years, 34% less than the currently used value of 103 million years. The discrepancy is not fully understood, but if the new value stands, it would mean that Earth’s mantle underwent differentiation much faster than previously thought. (J. Hiess et al., Science 335, 1610, 2012; N. Kinoshita et al., Science 335, 1614, 2012.) —Johanna Miller" (emphasis added) http://www.physicstoday.org/daily_edition/physics_update/time_to_reset_isotopic_clocks

13 posted on 08/17/2012 11:53:26 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: MrB

“Making conjectures about the past is not “science”,”

.....

.... the definition of evolutionary theory.


14 posted on 08/17/2012 12:13:32 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: allmendream
Creationism is useless to science.

Actually, Creationism, the foundational belief in a rational Creator, was the foundation of science. (You'll answer "no it's not!", but oh well)

Those cultures (Chinese, Muslims) which didn't have this foundational belief gave up on scientific advancements as futile because they had no expectation of consistency or rationality in nature.

A little reading would broaden your understanding, but, I know, you're married to evolution for some reason.

15 posted on 08/17/2012 12:23:08 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working fors)
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To: fishtank
Scientists typically use this method to age-date carbon-containing objects thought to be only tens of thousands of years old. The relevant radioactive carbon isotope (14C) decays so fast that it should no longer exist in earth materials that are a million or more years old.

These two side-by-side statements, alone, suffice to seriously degrade this article's credibility in my eyes. In fact, I'd say that the article is deliberately trying to misrepresent the facts and thus awaken doubts.

From the very beginning, Willard F. Libby (who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for his efforts) understood that the C-14 had to be (more or less) constantly formed (in the upper atmosphere, by cosmic ray bombardment of Nitrogen).

Regards,

16 posted on 08/17/2012 12:49:28 PM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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0.499 Life.


17 posted on 08/17/2012 1:02:59 PM PDT by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: MrB

Belief that the universe obeys laws is aided by belief in a law giver, certainly. But science can only use those rational physical laws. It cannot use a priori insistence upon a particular time table as interpreted through revealed wisdom. Creationism is useless for making accurate predictions. Science is of tremendous use. Creationists oppose not just evolution, but also geology, physics, paleontology, astronomy and any other branch of science that refuses to stick with their useless precepts.


18 posted on 08/17/2012 1:21:37 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: allmendream

You insist on saying that, but it’s simply not true.
It must be something you HAVE to convince yourself of for some reason.


19 posted on 08/17/2012 1:28:16 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working fors)
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To: Forrestfire

“So does that mean Mick Jagger is even older than we thought?”

Negatory....it means Mick and the universe is much younger than they look!


20 posted on 08/17/2012 1:32:12 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: allmendream

“Creationists oppose not just evolution, but also geology, physics, paleontology, astronomy and any other branch of science that refuses to stick with their useless precepts.”

This is a very grand assumption. Creationists have questioned, as skeptical scientists, the foundation of radio carbon dating....I’d say they are ahead of the learning curve.


21 posted on 08/17/2012 1:47:44 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: fishtank; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; ...

Here we go.


22 posted on 08/17/2012 1:58:50 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: fishtank

Maybe I am really not as old as I feel. I hope not.


23 posted on 08/17/2012 2:05:08 PM PDT by commonguymd
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To: MrB

Oh? Are you a mind reader now? It isn’t about me it is about science being useful and creationism being useless. It isn’t about me being “married” to evolution, it is about scientists needing an actual useful scientific explanation - and creationism is of no use.


24 posted on 08/17/2012 2:10:09 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: allmendream

How many times per week do you light candles, turn the lights out, sit cross-legged with your thumb and forefinger together and chant

“creationism is useless... creationism is useless...”


25 posted on 08/17/2012 2:20:10 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working fors)
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To: allmendream

Well, evolution does in fact use an a priori insistence on a particular time table.

Saying that Creationists “oppose” these other branches of science is just silly. It’s like saying someone doesn’t believe in microwave ovens because they don’t use one.

I think, actually I know, you will find the mature Creationist is substantially more intellectually curious and more honest in their quest for the truth than an evolutionist that has been forced to fit his data into a socially acceptable model.

BTW, these are credentialed and highly intelligent Creationists.


26 posted on 08/17/2012 2:20:39 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: alexander_busek
These two side-by-side statements, alone, suffice to seriously degrade this article's credibility in my eyes. In fact, I'd say that the article is deliberately trying to misrepresent the facts and thus awaken doubts.

Theological deceit is an ugly thing.

27 posted on 08/17/2012 2:26:24 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: fishtank

Once again scientists take steps to achieve better accuracy, and the creationists attack them for it.


28 posted on 08/17/2012 2:28:32 PM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: PapaBear3625

The golden “proof” for an old universe just went out the window.

You say, “The world is not 6,000 or so years old.”

I say, “Prove it.”

You can’t prove it now.

The universe as we know it has changed.

I told one of my students today that we are witnessing a bigger change in our perception of physics than even the discovery of radiation itself.

All of nuclear physics has been turned upside down with this news of a non-constant nuclear decay rate.

Just FYI, I have a BS and MS in Nuclear Engineering and a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. That in itself doesn’t mean that I am correct, it just means that I have a small amount of education.


29 posted on 08/17/2012 3:27:39 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Zeneta

The more educated someone is the less likely they are to be a creationist.

Biologists use the timetable developed by physicists and geologists and that is based on evidence and is subject to refinement as new evidence comes in.

This article has to do with creationism trying to rewrite physics because it doesn’t agree with their timetable.


30 posted on 08/17/2012 3:28:49 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: fishtank

Radiometric Dating - Click here for the list of Evidence for Creation Topics

31 posted on 08/17/2012 3:38:52 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: allmendream

http://www.examiner.com/article/growing-list-of-scientists-who-consider-young-earth-creationism-yec-a-fact-and-evolution-as-bunk

Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Kevin Anderson, Microbiology - Biography
Mark Armitage, Biology - Biography
Alexander Arndt (analytical chemist, etc.) [more info]
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Francis Bacon (developed the Scientific Method)
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Thomas G. Barnes (physicist) [more info]
Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Arthur V. Chadwick (geologist) [more info]
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Melvin Alonzo Cook (physical chemist, Nobel Prize nominee) [more info]
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Robert V. Gentry (physicist and chemist) [more info]
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
John Grebe (chemist) [more info]
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
D. Russell Humphreys (award-winning physicist) [more info]
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. David Kaufman, Human Anatomy - Biography
John W. Klotz (geneticist and biologist) [more info]
Leonid Korochkin (geneticist) [more info]
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Lane P. Lester (geneticist and biologist) [more info]
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Frank L. Marsh (biologist) [more info]
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Isaac Newton (helped develop science of dynamics and the discipline of calculus / father of the Law of Gravity / invented the reflecting telescope) - See also a refutation of the argument Newton was a creationist only because there was no alternative)
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Michael Oard, Atmospheric Science - Biography
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Gary E. Parker (biologist and paleontologist) [more info]
Louis Pasteur (helped develop science of bacteriology / discovered the Law of Biogenesis / invented fermentation control / developed vaccinations and immunizations)
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Charles B. Thaxton (chemist) [more info]
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
William Thompson (Lord Kelvin) (helped develop sciences of thermodynamics and energetics / invented the Absolute Temperature Scale / developed the Trans-Atlantic Cable)
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Leonardo da Vinci (helped develop science of hydraulics)
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
A.E. Wilder-Smith (chemist and pharmacology expert) [more info]
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology


32 posted on 08/17/2012 3:42:41 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank
All of nuclear physics has been turned upside down with this news of a non-constant nuclear decay rate.

All of nuclear physics? Upside down, you say? Strangely quiet for being upside down, they are.

33 posted on 08/17/2012 3:47:21 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: fishtank

That’s just the folks that are not afraid to go public !!

Many many more, know that their funding or tenure will end if they express what they know.

The tipping point is coming very soon.


34 posted on 08/17/2012 3:53:45 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta

Yep, yep, yep.


35 posted on 08/17/2012 3:54:29 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: allmendream
Creationism is useless to science. There is a reason why companies who want profit hire scientists not creationists. Because science is useful.

Especially globull warming science, eh?

Cheers!

36 posted on 08/17/2012 4:07:25 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers

globull warming, as you spell, is a political statement not science. When exposed to the true scientific method it collapses faster than algore’s iq test.


37 posted on 08/17/2012 4:12:40 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Zeneta
That’s just the folks that are not afraid to go public !!

Many many more, know that their funding or tenure will end if they express what they know.

I'm sure Isaac Newton took quite a risk publicly disagreeing with radiometric dating.

38 posted on 08/17/2012 4:14:16 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

Oh brother, where art thou ?

First things first, since you opened this line of discussion.

Newton, was never under threat for his beliefs.

Galileo, on the other hand was, however he still maintained his faith and certainly has been vindicated.

A mature Creationist will readily admit the mistakes of a dogmatic church over the centuries. The church of Darwinism by contrast,exercises it’s dogmatism through an entirely different process.

At the end of the day you, if you even bother to do some research, will find the Creationist community of scientists adhering to a standard of scientific rigor that an evolutionist only wished were present.

Here’s the deal.

If it were proven, beyond all doubt, all over the media etc....

That the Earth was no more than..say 10,000 years old.

Would that make any difference in your worldview ?


39 posted on 08/17/2012 4:40:37 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Whosoever

Ah! time I like time discussions... big issue time..

Lineal time may just be an illusion or even an allusion..
If eternity future is possible Occams Razor demands an eternity past..
If so, so much for the Big Bang!..

The Big Bang is a good yarn... no way to prove any of that.. (for sure)..
But it is very entertaining..

Multi-dimensions even Multi-Universes plays into all that..
Even multi-GoDs or no God at all... all extremely entertaining..

Science fiction must be logical and entertaining else whats the point..
Reality however need not be logical at all....
And I don’t see how time must be linear...


40 posted on 08/17/2012 5:42:47 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe

I like to entertain ideas about time.

I saw a show with some smart guy that suggested that time was an illusion. We are living in what I can only describe as “slices of space”.

Entertaining indeed, and hard to get your head around.

I’m not suggesting that I believe this. But as a thought experiment it can get interesting.

From my perspective, the only way time can be an illusion is if our entire universe is moving at or very near the speed of light.

There is of course no way to prove this.


41 posted on 08/17/2012 5:59:45 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: fishtank

Nevertheless, climate science is settled.


42 posted on 08/17/2012 6:04:12 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Tantaros: "Plainly put, Romney and Ryan can't push granny off the cliff. Obama beat them to it.")
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To: grey_whiskers

The best argument against these climate guys is that none of them can explain how we went into and out of ice ages before humans and their dreaded SUVs.

That argument goes out the window if you are stuck pretending the earth is only a few thousand years old.


43 posted on 08/17/2012 6:06:02 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: hosepipe

BTW, I think evoking Occam’s razor at this stage is premature.


44 posted on 08/17/2012 6:07:01 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: allmendream
The best argument against these climate guys is that none of them can explain how we went into and out of ice ages before humans and their dreaded SUVs.

That argument goes out the window if you are stuck pretending the earth is only a few thousand years old.

WOW

Your logic has sunk beneath your wisdom, like a stone.

45 posted on 08/17/2012 6:12:19 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
No.

If it was proven, beyond doubt, that it was 4 billion years old, whould it change yours?

46 posted on 08/17/2012 6:22:49 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Zeneta
At the end of the day you, if you even bother to do some research, will find the Creationist community of scientists adhering to a standard of scientific rigor that an evolutionist only wished were present.

You paint with the broad brush of hubris.

47 posted on 08/17/2012 6:24:51 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic
If it was proven, beyond doubt, that it was 4 billion years old, whould it change yours?

YES.

If it where also proven that evolution actually happened.

It would mean that objective morality did not exist.

It would mean that neither you nor I have free will.

It would, and has devalued human life.

And just so you understand, objective morality is that sense of right and wrong that everybody has, regardless of what they have been told.

Now, as a practical matter we have been living in your world for the past 150 years.

48 posted on 08/17/2012 6:41:35 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
You appear to be starting from a premise that it is impossible for God to have created life with the ability to evolve. This leads to the conclusion that if evolution happened, then there is no God.

I do not accept that premise because I do not assume restrictions on the power of God. Because I do not start from that premise, I arrive at different conclusions.

49 posted on 08/17/2012 6:47:31 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

Seriously ?

A proven, less than 10,000 year old earth would have no impact on how you viewed things ?

You are only left with two options.

Creation or Aliens.


50 posted on 08/17/2012 6:48:30 PM PDT by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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