Marriage fight divides state's Catholics (Minnesota)

Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | August 18, 2012 | ROSE FRENCH

[Cincinatus' Wife]

***Those who oppose the proposed constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage are organizing, putting them at odds with bishops.***

[BIG SNIP]

......Groups of lay Catholics and former priests have spoken out against the bishops' campaign. Some parents and students also have criticized the church's move to talk about marriage in [archdiocesan] high schools. Active Catholics have met in Protestant churches to talk about how to defeat the amendment.

Catholics and other faith groups have held meetings in their homes, like the one at Burg's house, where representatives for the anti-amendment Minnesotans United for All Families encourage them to hold conversations with friends and family.

Kate Brickman, a spokeswoman for the group, said anti-amendment Catholics feel like they have to meet in their homes and other non-Catholic spaces because bishops aren't tolerant of their views.

While Catholic leadership has supported similar marriage amendments in other states, it's been particularly "ardent" in Minnesota, according to Laura Olson, a political science professor at Clemson University, who's written about marriage amendments.

Olson said bishops may believe the amendment has a good chance of failing and are putting a lot of energy into trying to get it passed, although such actions could have the opposite effect with some, who'd rather see church money used for "social justice issues."

"Among Catholics, and this would be true in Minnesota and nationwide, you've got about a third who are pretty ... traditional in their interpretation and adhere to what the bishops say. What the remaining two-thirds do is really the issue."

[SatinDoll]

“So far this year, Catholic leadership has been one of the biggest financial backers of pro-amendment forces, directing close to $500,000 in support of it. Minnesota voters will decide Nov. 6 whether the state’s Constitution will define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.” Per the linked article.

It appears the homosexualists within the Catholic layity are following Satan. I, for one, hope the amendment passes.

[StonyBurk]

I am not a Catholic—but I am a Christian -and a Patriot. and near as I can figure “marriage” under American Law from the time when James Wilson taught American Law at the College of Philadelphia and said one consequence of “marriage” under our law is the two become one. ...until Mass. violated Law and Reason to allow same sex marriage— I don’t know of any State that recognized the fraud of same sex marriage. The State will do what it will but it seems to me as well having studied to become a Pastor —the Holy Bible is very clear “marriage” as defined by Moses in Genesis 1:27/2:24 ;Jesus of Nazareth Mark 10:6-8/Matthew 19:4-9; and the apostle Paul 1 Cor.6;8-11, 15-20 How is it they three all used the same definition of “marriage” and if ours differs from theirs by what authority do we change scripture?—or turn from it?

[wideawake]

It's great to hear that the traditores do not feel comfortable using Catholic facilities for their meetings. The episcopate is improving.

[freeangel]

“It appears the homosexualists within the Catholic layity are following Satan”

I guess they are not really Catholics. In that event, why not simply leave the church and head for one that embraces this travesty of natural and God given laws?

[BurningOak]

This one will pass. But Maine, Maryland, and Washington are another story. I think there is a good chance the gay agenda will score its first referendum victory this November.

But the real battle is not in the realm of politics, it is in Christian witness to the sinners. If every Christian brought even one homosexual to Christ, the problem would solve itself. Share the good news with a homosexual, it will have a bigger result than any vote.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

This November the silent majority will be rising up to address a lot of issues.

[kitkat]

>>>”There are many faithful Catholics who deeply believe gay couples and gay parents pose absolutely no threats to heterosexual families.”>>>

Then those faithful Catholics are totally unaware that gay couples adopt (or go the meat baster route) to have children. It is totally possible for gay couples to raise such children to believe that being gay is fine. And the numbers of gays increases incrementally. Of course the gays and the unaware Catholics will be against this amendment. WAKE UP, CATHOLICS.

[AuH2ORepublican]

No surprise that the Red Star Tribune would write an article trying to create a divide between Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church.

The quote from the Church spokesman says it all: Catholics who actually attend mass regularly support traditional marriage (and, I would add, the right to life), while “Catholics” who aren’t truly part of the Church (and only attend mass maybe twice a year, on Easter Sunday and Christmas Day) may take socially liberal positions and will skew polling.

The Red Star Tribune wants (i) the marriage amendment to be defeated and (ii) to create a greater rift between “cafeteria Catholics” and the Church. Their concern-trolling articles, much like their ridiculous polls that—year in and year out—oversample Democrats and end up being proved terribly incorrect, should be ignored.

The marriage amendment will be approved in Minnesota, and it could have the secondary effect of defeating Obama in the state.

[1010RD]

More psyops. Divide Catholics? If you’re familiar with excommunication no formal act is needed on the part of the Church. Your behavior, beliefs and activities are the driver. You excommunicate yourself.

[AuH2ORepublican]

The only state I’m really worried about is MD, although the marriage anendment just might get defeated thanks to the votes of black Democrats. As when California approved traditional marriage in 2008, Obama’s presence on the ballot and the corresponding increase in black voter turnout could save marriage in MD.

[1010RD]

MA is a state with a long history of thought policing, force and witchcraft. They’re diabolical in their belief in the rightness of their cause. They believe it unto death...yours that is.

[BurningOak]

MD has huge black pop, it relatively safe. Washington is probably the most vulnerable state, Seattle will approve for sure and the rest of the state may be too small to outweigh it. Maine is also vulnerable.

[Ann Archy]

Lefties first, Catholics second.

[johniegrad]

No surprise that the Red Star Tribune would write an article trying to create a divide between Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church.

Exactly.

[kjo]

Doesn’t matter what any single state does with its own constitution on this issue...it’s only a matter of time...if Obama is reelected... that the SCOTUS will grant this a 14th Amendment “right” 5-4.

Wish it were not so.

[Jim Noble]

“Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division”

[1010RD]

Can you imagine MD, the original Catholic state, going pro-homosexual marriage?

[Northern Yankee]

Lefties first, Catholics second.

?

Lots of wonderful Catholics out there that are working hard against gay marriages, HHS mandate, etc.

Thought you should know.

Blessings to you.

[SatinDoll]

StonyBurk: your comments touch upon something I noticed quite a while ago - there is really nothing in the U.S.Constitution regarding marriage. Religion has the authority to decide what is marriage in this country, not government. The deciding factor in Federal government interference was polygamy practiced by the LDS.

Now the state governments, that is another story. The Federalists meant for the individual states to be “laboratories” for social, cultural, and governmental change.

If a person or group didn’t like what was happening in one state, they could always move to another.

So, in effect, the decisions over homosexual marriage should be decided in the several states.

(I suspect that after a few years, any such amendments approved will be rescinded. Just a hunch.)

freeangel: you’re correct about pro-homosexualists no longer being Catholic. In truth, they are no longer Christian, either.

[jroneil]

Mass did not vote it in the Court decide the people were never allowed to vote on it by the Super Democratic Majority. There were enough signature to bring it to referendum but the legislator did not allow it twice. But it is also there faults for not having a 2 party system

[Cincinatus' Wife]

........” The federal government’s tally of same-sex couples, which is being released on a rolling, state-by-state basis, is especially significant for Maryland because of this year’s emotional General Assembly debate over gay marriage.

A same-sex marriage bill cleared the state Senate this year, but was pulled from the House floor after leaders determined that they were a few votes shy of the number needed for passage.

Opposition to gay marriage in Maryland is largely due to strongly held religious beliefs. Black churches from Prince George’s County and the Baltimore area led the push against the 2011 bill. Roman Catholic leaders also have opposed the measure, and Baltimore Archbishop Edwin F. O’Brien recently urged Gov. Martin O’Malley not to promote “a goal that so deeply conflicts with your faith.”

But the governor said several weeks ago that he would throw his weight behind the legislation, renewing supporters’ hopes for the 2012 General Assembly session. O’Malley is following in the footsteps of New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, who helped push a similar measure through his state’s legislature this year......

Del. Heather R. Mizeur, a Montgomery County Democrat who is gay, said the new census information shows that gay people live in all corners of the state. Every county in Maryland, as well as the city of Baltimore, showed double-digit growth in same-sex households over the past decade.

....Gay couples account for about eight of every 1,000 households in the state, according to the census data, collected in the spring and summer of 2010.”..

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-08-11/news/bs-md-census-same-sex-couples-20110811_1_gay-couples-gay-households-marriage-bill

[Ann Archy]

I know...I’m one of them.

[Northern Yankee]

That's right!

Forgive my misunderstanding.

Our parish just lost a tremendous priest to another parish in our recent diocesan shake-up. Our new priest is much more liberal and there's concern about what direction our parish is headed in the coming election.

We will wait out the election period to see how strong of an advocate he is in regarding church teachings and doctrine concerning abortion, right to life issues, HHS Mandate, etc. It pains me to think that.

Our former priest didn't mince words and was strong in Catholic values.

Time will tell...

[campaignPete R-CT]

ping, Catholic meetings

[Walrus]

BINGO, Freeangel.

They are NOT “Catholics”.

They are some sort of “social justice” worshipping sect that puts their own views and prejudices ahead of God’s.

It is human arrogance of the first order. It is NOT Catholicism.

[Walrus]

BINGO, Freeangel.

They are NOT “Catholics”.

They are some sort of “social justice” worshipping sect that puts their own views and prejudices ahead of God’s.

It is human arrogance of the first order. It is NOT Catholicism.

[Vigilanteman]

If these so called Catholics want a gay friendly church, then there are a lot of empty pews and infrastructure in the ELCA, my former denomination who chose that route. I'm sure they would be welcomed.

But that isn't what they want. They want to turn the Catholic Church into, at least, a hollowed-out opponent of their political agenda if they can't turn it into an active supporter.

Let them go to hell!

[jonno]

Regarding the chances of the amendment passing: here is a poll from July 22nd - looks promising:

“The poll by SurveyUSA, a public polling firm that partners with local TV stations, had 52 percent of voters saying they would vote for the amendment to 37 percent against it. Six percent were unsure; 5 percent would not vote.”

http://www.twincities.com/ci_21133292/new-poll-shows-large-margin-favor-marriage-amendment

[Graybeard58]

If every Christian brought even one homosexual to Christ, the problem would solve itself. Share the good news with a homosexual, it will have a bigger result than any vote.

James Chapter 5, verse 20:

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins

.

[Graybeard58]

Catholics who actually attend mass regularly support traditional marriage (and, I would add, the right to life), while “Catholics” who aren’t truly part of the Church (and only attend mass maybe twice a year, on Easter Sunday and Christmas Day) may take socially liberal positions and will skew polling.

I can tell you for a fact that this is not just a Catholic problem. We have our own Easter Sunday and Christmas members too. If every person who says they are Christian attended church regularly, new churches would have to be built to accommodate them. My own little church lists over 300 members, we do well to have 50 in church on Sunday morning. That's a very sad assessment.

My 13 year old daughter is sick this morning and my wife is staying home with her but my 12 year old son and I are getting ready to go to Sunday school and church. That doesn't make me better than anyone else but it is an outward manifestation of dedication to Christianity.

Jesus went to "Church" even taught there, he died for me, it's the least I can do, attend church and importantly take my family with me.

[yldstrk]

This fight the bishops because they are bishops mentality is a control/power trip issue that I have observed since I was a kid with the leftist laity thinking they know better than the bishops on everything. These leftist laymen do not read the Bible, unless it is the Marxist Bible. They are a continual thorn in the side of Catholics.

[marygam]

Over the last yeajr I have really started to question my faith. Being raised
a Catholic and still technically one, these battles over social justice, gay marriage
and the rest of the issues that really go against what were my religious beliefs(soial justice meaning let’s give aour
cash to help illegal immigration and such things that divide us. I have stated to take a hard look at whether I even want
to reamain a Catholic. When Dolan came out to express his exception
to being told he must fund healthcare for all in the Church’s organizations even
if that meant contraceptions, well I was happy that he took his
stance, but excuse me, where was he when they were putting Obamacare
together and he was all for it at the time including the mandate? It only served his purpose to speak out when we were forced
to eat Obama’s crap with the Contraceptives. The hypocrisy made me sick.
I have started to search out those with beliefs as mine, follow the 10 commandments and live them. Satan and politics be damned.
I just had to get that off my chest... I am re-born as a Christian now and fully awake to Jesus Christ’s true words.

[yldstrk]

Mary don’t be misled. Stay Catholic and fight against the enemy within. The Catholic church has been infiltrated by homosexual priests bent on destroying the church. There are also sincere and good priests. There are depraved and homosexual bishops and cardinals There are also good cardinals. But the Catholic church needs its true Catholics not to fall victim to the disinformation of satan that the Catholic church itself is depraved. Stay and fight satan who would love to see you quit.

[Antoninus]

Marriage fights divides Catholics — yeah, into Catholics and non-Catholics.

[mlizzy]

Let them go to hell!

Carefully examining many of the traps, I saw that each bore an inscription: Pride, Disobedience, Envy, Sixth Commandment, Theft, Gluttony, Sloth, Anger and so on. Stepping back a bit to see which ones trapped the greater number of boys, I discovered that the most dangerous were those of impurity, disobedience, and pride. In fact, these three were linked to together.

“Bad companions, bad books, and bad habits,” my guide exclaimed, “are mainly responsible for so many eternally lost.”

What a torture to think that they could have been saved so easily, yet now are irredeemably lost, and to remember the many good resolutions made and never kept. Hell is indeed paved with good intentions!

In this lower cavern I again saw those Oratory boys who had fallen into the fiery furnace...I drew closer to them and noticed that they were all covered with worms and vermin which gnawed at their vitals, hearts, eyes, hands, legs, and entire bodies so ferociously as to defy description. Helpless and motionless, they were a prey to every kind of torment...I drew even closer but no one spoke or even looked at me. I then asked my guide why, and he explained that the damned are totally deprived of freedom...

I took a few steps forward and saw that many of those poor wretches were savagely striking at each other like mad dogs. Others were clawing their own faces and hands, tearing their own flesh and spitefully throwing it about. Just then the entire ceiling of the cave became as transparent as crystal and revealed a patch of Heaven and their radiant companions safe for all eternity.

The poor wretches, fuming and panting with envy, burned with rage because they had once ridiculed the just. “The wicked shall see, and be angry, he shall gnash with his teeth, and pine away. . . ” (Psalms 111: 10) “Why do I hear no sound?” I asked my guide,

“Go closer!” he advised.

Pressing my ear to the crystal window, I heard screams and sobs, blasphemies and imprecations against the Saints. It was a tumult of voices and cries, shrill and confused. --Excerpts from "Prophetic Vision of Hell of St. John Bosco"

[mlizzy]

I have really started to question my faith.

Mary, if you deny yourself the Real Presence in the Eucharist, you will be "falling" right into the devil's plan. As Mother Teresa of Calcutta said, the Church will always have its problems, but the faith itself is without flaw.

[Gay State Conservative]

No it doesn't.What it *does* do is divides *real* Catholics and the Unitarian/Universalists who *masquerade* as Catholics.

[Morgana]

My feelings exactly. Go join the Episcopagan church then they may have all the homo marriages they want.

[Donald Rumsfeld Fan]

TEST OF FIRE

[Arrowhead1952]

Not just the Catholic church. We had a discussion about the ELCA in our LCMS Bible study group today.

---

Promoting Sin in the ELCA
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2919205/posts

[SuziQ]

This is one of those opportune 'teaching moments', of which I hope Bishops of every state in which this issue arises will take advantage. Marriage has become not much more than the dress and the reception to many young couples, and they don't give much thought, it seems, to the covenant they're making with each other, and, together, with God. The contraceptive mentality has taken hold, even in Catholics, that considers children an inconvenience. And with unwed motherhood so prevalent these days, the idea of marriage between and man and a woman as safe haven for the rearing of children is considered a quaint notion.

It will take boldness in the Spirit for priests and Bishops to speak out on this subject, rejecting the 'fairness' or 'civil rights' notions. They need to speak more about the argument that one man-one woman marriage is best for building and retaining stable civilizations, since many listeners will reject any religious ideas.