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CAN POLICE USE PHONY 911 CALL AS BASIS TO ENTER YOUR HOUSE?
vanity | 8/19/12 | jobim (vanity)

Posted on 08/19/2012 2:19:55 PM PDT by jobim

Here are the facts regarding friends (we'll call them the Parkers) of mine: Police came to the house at 3am, saying that someone reported they had heard a scream coming from their house. Police left upon being told that the Parkers had no knowledge of this.

Then sometime not long later, the police came to the Parker home again, saying that a 911 call had been made from the Parker house, with the voice of a woman yelling, and the phone was hung up. The parents were not at home, just the teenage boy and the 20-something girl. They showed no identification, although they wore the uniforms of the local police. The boy wished to accompany them as they searched the house, but they told him to stay where he was. One of the officers went down the hall to a bedroom where the husband's gun collection was, and lingered there long enough so that the other officer called out: "Are you all right?" The guns are all properly registered. The officers then left.

My questions: Is an incorrectly-attributed 911 call a frequent occurence? Could such be used to gain access to anyone's house? Is a warrant required?



TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: emergency911; leo; police; search; vanity; warrantless
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Does anyone have any experience with a similar situation?
1 posted on 08/19/2012 2:20:06 PM PDT by jobim
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To: jobim

They have to check the situation out. How many times have 911 operators and police dismissed a call and come to find out some psycho has had people tied up or chopped up in his garage?


2 posted on 08/19/2012 2:23:44 PM PDT by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: jobim

It’s called SWATing.


3 posted on 08/19/2012 2:24:51 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1308 of our ObamaVacation from reality - Obama, a queer and present danger)
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To: jobim
"Got a warrant?"
4 posted on 08/19/2012 2:27:04 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: jobim

I am going to play police advocate here. How do they know it is a false call until they investigate?

I would guess a vast majority of 911 calls aren’t false.

If someone calls 911 hearing a scream from the neighbors house, it could be a false call to harass a neighbor, but, it could be that a neighbor fell, there was a home invasion or something else.

It seems as someone in a public safety position, the first and fast priority would be to check on where the report came from, not do who knows how many hours of investigation required to try to determine if it is a fake call.


5 posted on 08/19/2012 2:27:56 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: jobim

Holy heck, where do these Parker’s live that they have to register their firearms? Basically, the cops can do whatever they want, and recourse comes after the fact. Unless, possibly, you know your rights, have a camera and a witness, and you don’t open the door. They would have to have probable cause that a felony has been committed. Others more knowledgeable than i , and that’s a lot, will feel free to correct me.


6 posted on 08/19/2012 2:29:49 PM PDT by andyk (Go Juan Pablo!)
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To: Dallas59

Seems to me that one of Dahmer’s victims was taken back to Dahmer’s apartment by police who determined that it was just a lover’s quarrel.


7 posted on 08/19/2012 2:29:56 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: jobim

We’ve had three experiences with the police coming for 911 calls made in error - a cordless phone transmitting 411 wrong, a child who learned about 911 in preschool, trying to dial a 921 number and getting it wrong. Nobody yelling in the background, though.

The police never asked to come in, just talk to us at the door, particularly me, the woman of the house.


8 posted on 08/19/2012 2:31:28 PM PDT by heartwood
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To: cripplecreek

If they come in with guns blaring and shooting dogs...it’s wrong. Searching a house that has had two 911 hangups is ok.


9 posted on 08/19/2012 2:32:38 PM PDT by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: heartwood

We had a case like that. My wife was with several friends in our house rehearsing for an Opera they were about to be in. Apparently, someone walking by heard what they thought were screams (it was screams but part of the script) and called 911. They came by, checked everything out, talked to everyone in the house and left. They were very nice about it and nothing came from it. I appreciate that they did that. What if it were a home invasion situation instead and the scream was my wife being attacked? (in reality, knowing my wife, the perp would be the one screaming in pain but that is another story.)


10 posted on 08/19/2012 2:36:02 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: Dallas59
Searching a house that has had two 911 hangups is ok.

I disagree, because it is obvious that the 911 system has been compromised. If the 911 system were a secure, infallible system, then it might justify probable cause, but since it is so easily hacked, as we see with the various "swatting" incidents, it should no longer be considered reliable. Either secure the system, or toss it.
11 posted on 08/19/2012 2:42:20 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: jobim
 
 
They need to contact whatever communications center that dispatches officers for that jurisdiction and get a print-out of the call chronology so as to determine if there was any real calls to service in the first place and try to determine the origin of these complaints as well as officer actions and comments. Use the info, if any, to make a complaint to the department concerning those false calls - obtaining the info and making a complaint NOW is important in the event these 911 calls escalate in severity. If they get any static about obtaining chronology information from the dispatch, consult an attorney - matter of fact they may want to anyway on the side of caution. Also they need to think if there is someone in their lives who would want to deliberately target them with "SWATing" stunts.
 
 

12 posted on 08/19/2012 2:44:43 PM PDT by lapsus calami (What's that stink? Code Pink ! ! And their buddy Murtha, too!)
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To: jobim

We had this problem and it turned out to be a glitch in the phone lines, the cable company we used for our phone service.

Once it was investigated and fixed, it never happened again.

It was a bit unnerving to have the police show up at our door twice.


13 posted on 08/19/2012 2:46:24 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: fr_freak

I think it is reasonably secure, as they can trace the source of the call, and prosecute those who do fake calls.

What’s the alternative? No one can call the police? Calls can be faked without 911, you know, just call the police in a normal fashion. Should the cops ignore those calls, too?


14 posted on 08/19/2012 2:48:36 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Dallas59

I agree. Its a tough situation. Leftists pull that kind of crap as a means of harassing police and creating animosity toward police.

I’ve seen them show up after a cancelled call as well. My cousin thought his truck had been stolen one night till he found it in a field across the road. He pulled in a driveway and went to the door. Nobody was home so he went to leave and his truck was gone. He called the police and when he was waiting for them he saw it in the moonlight a good 100 yards off the road. He called the police again and cancelled but they showed up anyway.


15 posted on 08/19/2012 2:52:43 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Persevero
I think it is reasonably secure, as they can trace the source of the call, and prosecute those who do fake calls.

Wrong. The swatting incidents that have made the news recently were the result of spoofed caller IDs. That is to say that though the phone call was made from a location other than the Smith's house, it appeared to be coming from the Smith's house on the operator's control screen. This way, the hackers can say "I've got a gun and I'm going to kill everyone!" then hang up, and the 911 operators tracing the call (incorrectly) to the Smith's house, where they are sleeping peacefully, and BOOM, they wake up with M-16s in their faces.

I don't say we throw out the 911 system, even as it is, but I say that the police should not be able to use a 911 call solely as the basis for entering a residence, because the system is unreliable now. They should go investigate, but if they cannot find any evidence of a crime being committed and the occupants claim no knowledge, the police should have no legal basis for entering.
16 posted on 08/19/2012 2:57:40 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: fr_freak
but since it is so easily hacked, as we see with the various "swatting" incidents, it should no longer be considered reliable. Either secure the system, or toss it.
Swatting is not hacking ... and just what would you replace the current system with that is so much better?
17 posted on 08/19/2012 3:01:12 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: jobim

Appear at the window with hands visible and state “I do not consent to a search - if you have a warrant, kick the door down and enter.”


18 posted on 08/19/2012 3:06:40 PM PDT by struggle (http://killthegovernment.wordpress.com/)
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To: jobim

About 20 years ago I had police at my door. They stated someone made a foul and vulgar 911 call from my address.

My spouse was napping upstairs, and it was me and the dog. I left them on the porch, woke up my husband and we both denied any part of the prolem. They really didnt believe us. We told them it was their glitch. they left.


19 posted on 08/19/2012 3:08:08 PM PDT by Chickensoup (STOP The Great O-ppression)
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To: jobim

About 20 years ago I had police at my door. They stated someone made a foul and vulgar 911 call from my address.

My spouse was napping upstairs, and it was me and the dog. I left them on the porch, woke up my husband and we both denied any part of the prolem. They really didnt believe us. We told them it was their glitch. they left.

These days cant you program phones to give different call back numbers?


20 posted on 08/19/2012 3:08:57 PM PDT by Chickensoup (STOP The Great O-ppression)
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To: jobim

Police don’t have a choice, but they could prosecute prank 911 calls.


21 posted on 08/19/2012 3:10:53 PM PDT by stinkerpot65 (Global warming is a Marxist lie.)
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To: cripplecreek

He called the police again and cancelled but they showed up anyway.

_____________________

They were hoping to catch a DUI!


22 posted on 08/19/2012 3:12:22 PM PDT by Chickensoup (STOP The Great O-ppression)
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To: jobim

Somebody once mis-read a Facebook post of mine, thinking I was going to commit suicide and called the cops. I met them at the door and they told me that they could come inside to ensure my well-being.

I figured that I probably had to let them in, but then they wanted to check my Facebook posting. I told them that they were no overreaching what we had agreed what their original intent was, which was to ascertain my well-being. I told them that I would unquestionably decline their curiousity beyond the original premise, even if they had to take me into custody.


23 posted on 08/19/2012 3:20:52 PM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
"Got a warrant?"

Don't need one. The Constitution forbids "unreasonable" searchs and seizures. There are what is known as exigent circumstances. If for instance, the police hear a woman screaming in a house, they can come in without getting a warrant. They can also search if they have probable cause. Generally, a search warrant is sought prior to a planned search, when there is little risk that evidence will be destroyed or an innocent person harmed if a search is delayed.

24 posted on 08/19/2012 3:23:01 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (The Democratic Party strongly supports full civil rights for necro-Americans!)
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To: jobim

My son who is a cop responded to a 911 call from a 13 year old girl who said her older brother was hitting her in the face. When he got there he discovered they were the only two at home and the 15 year old brother had thrown a french fry (one french fry) at her, hitting her on the cheek.


25 posted on 08/19/2012 3:25:27 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (If you fear Obama, you'll vote for Romney. If you fear God, you won't.)
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To: jobim
The can do anything they want.

The use "drug-sniffing" dogs to manufacture probable cause all the time.

26 posted on 08/19/2012 3:25:44 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: oh8eleven
Swatting is not hacking

See post #16.
27 posted on 08/19/2012 3:28:00 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Don't need one.

You're absolutely right. Cops can do anything they want.

All they have to do is bring in a "drug-sniffing" dog to manufacture probable cause.

28 posted on 08/19/2012 3:28:22 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: jobim

Somewhat depends on the system your 911 answering point (PSAP)uses. Does it get actual gps location from the phone? I ask because some systems only get a triagulated location based on cell tower location calculations. These triangulated locations can be off by a considerable distance.


29 posted on 08/19/2012 3:29:55 PM PDT by UB355 (Slower traffic keep right)
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To: andyk

I don’t think an anonymous call from a neighbor would support probable cause for a warrant, so why should it support probable cause to believe that a crime is being committed and that exigent circumstances exist? Police can go to the door and inquire of whoever answers, and listen and look for signs of distress, but in my opinion, they cannot barge in without a warrant. But that was the old America; nowadays, they have the TSA stopping people at rail stations and on city streets, drones in the sky and cameras recording license plates at every corner. Those old rules and rights are becoming quaint.


30 posted on 08/19/2012 3:31:36 PM PDT by Defiant (If there are infinite parallel universes, why Lord, am I living in the one with Obama as President?)
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To: cripplecreek

Problem with the parking brake?


31 posted on 08/19/2012 3:34:54 PM PDT by Defiant (If there are infinite parallel universes, why Lord, am I living in the one with Obama as President?)
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To: jobim

A teenage boy, 20-year-old “girl”, and screaming? Buy that man a cigar!


32 posted on 08/19/2012 3:36:32 PM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: jobim; Dallas59; null and void; E. Pluribus Unum; mnehring; andyk; cripplecreek; heartwood; ...
1)It’s called SWATing.
Is this legal?

2)"Got a warrant?"
The kids were home alone and didn't ask. Can the parents hold the police responsible after the fact for not having warrants?

3)I would guess a vast majority of 911 calls aren’t false.
Granted. Do we think it a pattern that a system not completely reliable can be used an excuse to enter at will?

4)Holy heck, where do these Parker’s live that they have to register their firearms? Basically, the cops can do whatever they want, and recourse comes after the fact. Unless, possibly, you know your rights, have a camera and a witness, and you don’t open the door. They would have to have probable cause that a felony has been committed.
Yes, this was of concern to me. He styed in that room a long time where the guns were on the wall. Additionally, the father had in the distant past been a gun dealer. Abnd recently the son had written a pro-gun letter to the local newspaper, which they never printed, but could they have sent it along to the police, perhaps under blanket direction of DHS's "See something do something" command, especially to local law enforcement?

5)We’ve had three experiences with the police coming for 911 calls made in error
But in this case, they stand by the address being correct, even that the girl's voice matches that of the innocent Parker girl.

6)If they come in with guns blaring and shooting dogs...it’s wrong. Searching a house that has had two 911 hangups is ok.
No, just one hangup - the other call came to report a scream heard at the residence. Strangely enough, the Parker girl had been recently stopped by the police for not wearing a seatbelt, which when she was pulled over was clearly not the case.

7)Apparently, someone walking by heard what they thought were screams (it was screams but part of the script) and called 911. They came by, checked everything out, talked to everyone in the house and left.
But no search. Here they just came in and wouldn't let the boy accompany one of them as he went through the house.

8)Either secure the system, or toss it
That is my question: How secure/accurate is it? Are others harrassed due to its inaccuracy?

9)They need to contact whatever communications center that dispatches officers for that jurisdiction and get a print-out of the call chronology so as to determine if there was any real calls to service in the first place and try to determine the origin of these complaints as well as officer actions and comments. Use the info, if any, to make a complaint to the department concerning those false calls - obtaining the info and making a complaint NOW is important in the event these 911 calls escalate in severity. If they get any static about obtaining chronology information from the dispatch, consult an attorney - matter of fact they may want to anyway on the side of caution. Also they need to think if there is someone in their lives who would want to deliberately target them with "SWATing" stunts.
Thanks for the advice. If someone is targeting them, how did they make a call from the Parker phone? Either a glitch in the system, or the police have their eyes on them and search them using trumped-up charges.

10)I’ve seen them show up after a cancelled call as well.
I understand this, but there was no search done in your case.

11)Wrong. The swatting incidents that have made the news recently were the result of spoofed caller IDs.
That might explain this - how possible is it to hack the system?

12)We told them it was their glitch. they left.
These guys didn't leave.

13)Appear at the window with hands visible and state “I do not consent to a search - if you have a warrant, kick the door down and enter.”
Good advice. We need to coach our children it seems.

14)Swatting is not hacking ... and just what would you replace the current system with that is so much better?
The system may be OK, but we need to guard against the abuse of it with vigilance.
33 posted on 08/19/2012 3:43:35 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: Defiant
Problem with the parking brake?

Smoke inhalation.
34 posted on 08/19/2012 3:44:35 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: cripplecreek

I’m very confused. How did smoke inhalation cause his truck to be 100 yards off the road from the driveway where he parked it? Just curious, not relevant to the story.


35 posted on 08/19/2012 3:47:22 PM PDT by Defiant (If there are infinite parallel universes, why Lord, am I living in the one with Obama as President?)
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To: jobim; andyk
The guns are all properly registered.

WTF ??

36 posted on 08/19/2012 3:50:52 PM PDT by Delta 21 (Oh Crap !! Did I say that out loud ??!??)
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To: UB355

Thanks. I’ll check into this. Quite likely in that section of the Big Island.


37 posted on 08/19/2012 3:51:20 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: Delta 21

Did I say this is Hawaii? One-party rule? Blue as the mighty Pacific that surrounds us?


38 posted on 08/19/2012 3:53:41 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: Defiant

He was high and put it in neutral rather than park. There was a eal slight incline at the top of the drive that got steeper toward the road.


39 posted on 08/19/2012 3:55:33 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: fr_freak

but since it is so easily hacked, as we see with the various “swatting” incidents, it should no longer be considered reliable. Either secure the system, or toss it.
**********************************************************
Absolutely ,, caller-id info can be very easily spoofed ... I would require that centers receiving 911 calls have PBX equipment that can actually determine the originating number rather than rely on the transmitted data. This failure is an open invitation to barge into any residence or building ... you can bet some agency is going to use this opening to get into areas they can’t get a warrant for.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5128156_spoof-caller-id.html


40 posted on 08/19/2012 3:59:05 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: cripplecreek

Guess I’m a little dense. He’s lucky the cops didn’t arrest him for DUI when they did come.


41 posted on 08/19/2012 4:01:08 PM PDT by Defiant (If there are infinite parallel universes, why Lord, am I living in the one with Obama as President?)
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To: Dallas59

>> “How many times have 911 operators and police dismissed a call and come to find out some psycho has had people tied up or chopped up in his garage?” <<

.
None, as far as I can determine by google search.

911 calls are notoriously unreliable for anything.


42 posted on 08/19/2012 4:04:31 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: jobim

when my daughter went to preschool, some genius decided that they all needed to know how to dial 911.

When the police showed up for the third time, I invited them in and made my 4 year old apologize to them for wasting their time. Seemed to satisfy the cops nothing bad was going on and no more 911 calls were made.


43 posted on 08/19/2012 4:11:57 PM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: oh8eleven

>> “and just what would you replace the current system with that is so much better?” <<

.
A madatorily well armed citizenry that doesn’t need police for anything but incarcerating the perps that are apprehended by the citizens, as it was when the country was founded, and until 1833.


44 posted on 08/19/2012 4:13:56 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: dangerdoc

>> “when my daughter went to preschool, some genius decided that they all needed to know how to dial 911.” <<

.
Preschool can be hazardous to your child’s mental health.


45 posted on 08/19/2012 4:15:56 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: jobim

Well, at first reading I would say absolutely not, because the wording makes it sounds like all the calls came from somewhere else.

But IF the 911 call came from the house (and we have the electronics to pinpoint absolutely where the call originated), then I am not surprised the police came to check it out.

Can they enter?

Not without a warrant.

There are judges in every jurisdiction that would give them a warrant in five minutes time IF THEY HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE.

A warrant is one of those “line in the sand” thingies. The courts, the lawyers, the police are CONSTANTLY trying to find ways to diminish, obfuscate, and worm their way around it.

But we can’t let that happen. True Americans can’t let that be.

Just sayin...


46 posted on 08/19/2012 4:17:03 PM PDT by djf (The barbarian hordes will ALWAYS outnumber the clean-shaven. And they vote.)
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To: mnehring

One night about 20 years ago my wife and I went out to a function and left two of our daughters home alone for about two hours. One was in her early teens and the other was around 9. One of them called 911 while we were gone but then hung up. Because it was snowing we were able to confirm their story that the cops showed up was true due to footprints in the snow around the house.

They said the cops showed up and the girls hid and acted like nobody was home, so the cops left. We probably dodged a DSHS bullet on that one.


47 posted on 08/19/2012 4:19:30 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Wrong-o, but thanks for playing.


48 posted on 08/19/2012 4:22:29 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

The Constitution protects against unreasonable searchs. The courts need to enforce the Constitution and view “expert” witnesses, “drug sniffing” dogs and other contrivances with deep skepticism. BTW, the exclusionary rule is *not* in the Constitution and often leads to perverse outcomes. And the WoD has done more harm to Americans liberties then anything since prohibition.


49 posted on 08/19/2012 4:26:43 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (The Democratic Party strongly supports full civil rights for necro-Americans!)
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To: jobim; Dallas59; null and void; E. Pluribus Unum; mnehring; andyk; cripplecreek; heartwood; ...

Thank you, all, for your thoughts. You are what make FR such a valuable resource. A Crown Royal Manhattan is coming in express chilled mail for each of you within the hour. I’ll let you know what we find out on this case.


50 posted on 08/19/2012 4:38:02 PM PDT by jobim (.)
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