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Here's Why The Afghanistan War Is One Big Heaping Hot Mess
Business Insider ^ | 29 Aug 2012 | Geoffrey Ingersoll

Posted on 08/30/2012 7:08:32 AM PDT by shove_it

There's a rising stench. It's coming from Afghanistan. It smells like defeat. After eleven years and an "exit strategy" that resembles that of Iraq, it seems as if Americans are trapped in Afghanistan. It's become the most cramped elevator ride in U.S. history. Essentially we're at a stand still. A quagmire. Suddenly it's a nightmare scenario. Yes, folks, I believe we're stuck. And to make matters worse, somebody gunned a fart.

[...]

(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS:
Sure sounds familiar, groan. When will we learn to quit fighting and dying for these hell holes?
1 posted on 08/30/2012 7:08:34 AM PDT by shove_it
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To: shove_it

“East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.”


2 posted on 08/30/2012 7:10:07 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: massgopguy

The Brits and the Rooskies learned the lesson.


3 posted on 08/30/2012 7:11:26 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (I didn't post this. Someone else did.)
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To: shove_it
I thought that Afghanistan was the "Smart War"?
4 posted on 08/30/2012 7:12:15 AM PDT by Falcon4.0
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To: shove_it

I can tell you why in 3 words.

“We’re still there”


5 posted on 08/30/2012 7:12:37 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: shove_it

President Romney...

...please bring our guys and gals home. This war is a tremendous waste of America’s most valuable assets. (And, I ain’t talking about $$$!)


6 posted on 08/30/2012 7:13:16 AM PDT by moovova (Hope-ium...Time to kick the habit.)
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To: shove_it

Can anyone give a cogent rational for an American military presence in a country devoted to the values and customs of the eighth century? Osama is dead. Just what real strategic value or threat does Afghanistan have? Not worth a single American life or dollar.


7 posted on 08/30/2012 7:14:48 AM PDT by allendale
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To: massgopguy

Ah, but the poppies. The poppies, they grow. More every year since we’ve been there. The spice must flow.


8 posted on 08/30/2012 7:14:57 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: cripplecreek

I believe that’s 4 words.


9 posted on 08/30/2012 7:15:04 AM PDT by brivette
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To: shove_it

It is because of opium. If we were serious we could destroy the Taleban in a month. But we aren’t serious. And our people are dying because of that fact.


10 posted on 08/30/2012 7:15:17 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: shove_it

Who are we fighting, and what is the objective?

I do not believe either question has been answered.


11 posted on 08/30/2012 7:15:59 AM PDT by wrench
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To: shove_it

And wasting future taxpayers money.

But when we went in and the flags were waving it felt good.

We could just see VE day again with the French hugging our troops and the Germans shining our shoes. Man those were dreams.


12 posted on 08/30/2012 7:16:07 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Romney is still a liberal. Just watch him. (Obama-ney Care ))
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To: wrench

“We have always been at war with Oceania.”


13 posted on 08/30/2012 7:16:51 AM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: MestaMachine

For some reason, increased drug trade has followed U.S. military intervention dating back to Vietnam. Go figure.

But to the cut and runners, we gotta fight ‘em over there so we don’t have to fight ‘em over here, you betcha.


14 posted on 08/30/2012 7:16:53 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: brivette

Is a contraction considered two words?


15 posted on 08/30/2012 7:17:50 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: shove_it

I think it’s time to leave. But I’m not in favor of just leaving. We leave, but leave them NOTHING. All of the public facilities and infrastructure, whatever we cannot take with us we render unusable. Electric generating plants, substations, oil & gas storage and pipelines, water & wastewater treatment, public buidings, bridges, dams, everything. Blow it all up. They want to be barbarians, let them live like barbarians.


16 posted on 08/30/2012 7:18:59 AM PDT by henkster (We're the slaves of the phony leaders...)
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To: cripplecreek

I’m not sure.


17 posted on 08/30/2012 7:19:18 AM PDT by brivette
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To: shove_it
There is only one way to improve living conditions in Afghanistan..

Photobucket

18 posted on 08/30/2012 7:19:32 AM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
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To: Wolfie

You are exactly right. I was a prosecutor, now do crimnal defense. About six years ago, heroin abuse and addiction started showing up. And not just with inner city blacks, it’s out in the white suburbs. It’s reached epidemic proportions. It’s all because we are in Afghanistan. Not every soldier who goes over there is a choir boy. Lots of gang bangers enter the military, with the intent to continue their trade.


19 posted on 08/30/2012 7:22:47 AM PDT by henkster (We're the slaves of the phony leaders...)
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To: Wolfie

“For some reason, increased drug trade has followed U.S. military intervention dating back to Vietnam.”

Oh, yes. That was when we had our FIRST mafia president. He wasn’t just a pretty face. Duh.


20 posted on 08/30/2012 7:24:07 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: shove_it

The Afghan people will be exposed to great savagery if we leave. It pains us to leave them to this.

But China, Russia and Cambodia brought immense savagery upon their people, and we didn’t intervene there.

Time to bring our people & equipment home, and let the Afghan tribes sort things out.


21 posted on 08/30/2012 7:24:56 AM PDT by lurk
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To: EGPWS
I've been saying since 2001 that this war should have been over in about 30 minutes.

They hijacked airliners and used them as weapons of mass destruction... We respond in kind with our own WMD’s namely Trident D5’s targeting Kandahar, Tora Bora, and the other known taliban/ al qaida strongholds in afghanistan. Followed by strikes on every muslim religious site such as mecca, qom, medina, etc.

22 posted on 08/30/2012 7:29:55 AM PDT by 2CAVTrooper ( For those who have had to fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected shall never know.)
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To: shove_it
The only way that the Afghan government becomes stable enough for an exit is if the economy of the country in question becomes stable. The Obama administration has provided ample evidence they know nothing about stabilizing an economy much less one as difficult as Afghanistan's.

The only true economic activity in Afghanistan is based on opium production. The Bush administration at least made attempts to find alternative agricultural products to support the economy. they failed, but they tried. The Obama administration doesn't even realize they need to try.

23 posted on 08/30/2012 7:32:08 AM PDT by CMAC51
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To: wrench

re: “what is the objective?”

That is the question that I don’t see an answer to anymore.

When we orginially went into Afghanistan it appeared to me that it was to

a) destroy the Taliban or at least greatly reduce it’s capability to carry out attacks against the United States, b) if possible, attempt to stabilize Afghanistan’s government to be able to take on the Taliban on their own, c) demonstrate to other nations who harbor/support terrorist groups whose goal is to kill Americans that they will get their butts kicked, and
d) get Osama bin Laden if practical.

I felt like, at least initially, that we were making some progress on all fronts - that is until Obama came into office. He did get bin Laden (maybe), but other than that, what has our mission in Afghanistan become? I can’t tell - can you? We still make attacks on the Taliban, but it just seems like Obama is content to have our troops just try to keep the status quo rather than finish the job and get out.

It seems that our relationship with their government and with the locals has deterioated back to what it was prior to our going in - I just do not see a clear mission anymore.


24 posted on 08/30/2012 7:32:32 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: shove_it
He is right.

We HAD to invade Pakistan to take out the government which aided the 9-11 attacks.

Taking out an unstable dictator like Saddam Hussein was necessary.

But why we remained there in both places is beyond me.

I think the naivety of Bush and his successor is partly to blame.

Both of them are laboring under the illusions that you can change people's thinking when they don;t WANT to change that thinking, by relatively peaceful means.

It can't be done. Especially when dealing with Muslims.

What it takes to change their thinking is by enforcing an alternative thought process on them and that is mutually painful, especially to THEM. But as a culture and society we appear unwilling to do that.

In Afghanistan we have no clear cut military goals and we have no clear cut occupational objectives. We should have pulled out long ago and should do so now.

We need only look at the return to the lunacy that exists now in Iraq - a lunacy endemic to any Muslim state. We need to pick our targets carefully, identify our obejctive carefully and be prepared to pursue them ruthlessly. All of which Bush and Obama for different views, have neglected to do.

25 posted on 08/30/2012 7:33:27 AM PDT by ZULU (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=D9vQt6IXXaM&hd)
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To: lurk

Exposing the Afghan people to savagery? Uhhhh...I think they are, and have always been, savages. We should simply leave them to be what they are and want to be.


26 posted on 08/30/2012 7:35:05 AM PDT by henkster (We're the slaves of the phony leaders...)
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To: shove_it; Travis McGee; Kartographer
When will we learn to quit fighting and dying for these hell holes?

Sigh. It's hard to let go of the old paradigms, such as political parties representing real differences, or the USA engaging in warfare in order to win.

The name of the game for the last 65 years, ever since the end of WWII, has been to inflate asset values. This has not accomplished through real production, but increased leverage (debt).

Increasing nominal asset prices (bubbles) via leverage reduces the real carrying cost of previously incurred debt. Of course, you have to deal with the newly incurred debt, but that's a problem to be resolved during the next bubble phase. Rinse, wash, repeat - yes, a Ponzi scheme.

War is just one mechanism for debt financed state & public spending; there are many, many others. The young kids dying overseas are merely victims being fed to the banking/finance monster behind the state.

How long this can continue is anyone's guess. It really seems that this time they are running out of options. For those who have awaken (the reason I pinged Travis), they are busy plotting how the end-game is going to play out.

The future actions of the USA as it attempts to keep power/control is a lot more critical than these 'small' diversions thrown up to confuse.

27 posted on 08/30/2012 7:37:15 AM PDT by semantic
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To: henkster

I am SO with you on that!

My son spent 5 months there as a Marine, until he hit an IED. Once spent 3 days in a Forward Operating Base with no ammo. I asked him why we are there....to kill the poppies.

Leave it and level it.


28 posted on 08/30/2012 7:43:48 AM PDT by kevslisababy
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To: ZULU

“But why we remained there in both places is beyond me.”

Surely you meant Astan rather than Pstan. I agree entirely.


29 posted on 08/30/2012 7:53:32 AM PDT by shove_it (purge pandering progressive parasites)
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To: allendale

Apparently there are trillions of dollars’ worth of gems and precious metals in Afghanistan, some of which have industrial or military uses. We were aware of this even before 9-11. Consequently, one of our motivations for being there is economic: making sure those are not in the possession of the Chinese or other bad actors.


30 posted on 08/30/2012 7:56:16 AM PDT by ottbmare (The OTTB Mare)
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To: shove_it

Juan McCain says throw more Americans into the mess.


31 posted on 08/30/2012 7:56:44 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Lurker

That’s only part of it. The biggest reason is that our “ally” whom we give billions of dollars in aid to, Pakistan, is providing a safe haven for the Taliban to train and recruit. America’s State Department under both Bush and Obama, somehow pretend that Pakistan is helping us and that lie is wasting lives and money in the third world sh1t hole that is Afghanistan.


32 posted on 08/30/2012 7:57:59 AM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: shove_it

We’re helping those generals and admirals sell their books.


33 posted on 08/30/2012 8:07:58 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: CMAC51

And you believe that? da bushes have been part of the drug trade since daddy was a young man his own self. Remember mena? That’s how daddy met his adopted son, billy jeff. Two sons who were both governors of states that just happen to be major drug hubs into the USA? Florida and Texas. Both at the same time. Lawsy me. Do the names barry seal, manuel noriega, johnny sutton ring a bell?


34 posted on 08/30/2012 8:08:05 AM PDT by MestaMachine (obama kills)
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To: shove_it

this has turned into a status quo war. We should put the troops and equipment in to win, decisively - get out - then leave it to NATO to knock out any hot spots that pop up.

We must not turn it over to the Taliban - they must be crushed.


35 posted on 08/30/2012 8:18:00 AM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-hereQaeda" and its allies.)
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To: shove_it

Like, uh, maybe they don’t want democracy and hate America. Not necessarily in that order.


36 posted on 08/30/2012 8:24:29 AM PDT by bgill
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To: EGPWS

nice image,

God doesn’t need our weapons, but every time I see a pic like this I’m reminded of the following:

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:10

“All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree.” Isaiah 34:4

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.” Revelation 6:14


37 posted on 08/30/2012 8:27:18 AM PDT by captmar-vell
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To: shove_it

Wasn’t there a report a while back regarding some precious minerals or some such thing, in Afganny?

Get them the he** out of that corrupt disgusting country!


38 posted on 08/30/2012 8:41:10 AM PDT by AllAmericanGirl44 (Fluck this adminstration of misfits.)
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To: shove_it

No Blood for Poppies!


39 posted on 08/30/2012 8:41:54 AM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: AllAmericanGirl44
rare earth Afghanistan

Google it.

40 posted on 08/30/2012 8:48:37 AM PDT by shove_it (purge pandering progressive parasites)
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To: shove_it

Right. I made a mistake. THanks for catching that.

And I am glad we agree.

I just started to listen to a book on tape on The Prince by Machiavelli. I just got to the part where he gives his advice when one ruler takes over another territory where the population is hostile. I have to compare what he says with what we are dling there.

Everytime I see a maimed wounded veteran or body bag coming out of Afghanistan, I get furious at the dolts in Washington who are keeping our boys there.


41 posted on 08/30/2012 8:57:16 AM PDT by ZULU (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=D9vQt6IXXaM&hd)
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To: shove_it

I have been saying for four years

we need to leave because our goals are goals respected only by a minority in their society, and our values are only respected by an even smaller minority in their society.

We cannot protect those minorities who are with us, without somehow drawing them into our safety and in WWII fashion flattening everything outside of it.

There is neither the public or political will for such a feat.

It’s not to say the Taliban cannot be defeated. They can, if you admit the only moral conduct of war is total war, as we did in WWII, not war with politically correct handcuffs on, which is what ever aspect of the military theater of operations in Afghanistan has involved.

We need to leave, but we need to leave with a warning.

Should we be attacked from their soil again, by some Bin Laden type person or outfit, we will return. They’ll see us in the sky, for days, until their land is dust.


42 posted on 08/30/2012 9:53:11 AM PDT by Wuli
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To: shove_it
Oh what a target rich environment.

IMHO, about a third of the blame falls on the American Military. Not the grunts that are doing the actual fighting but, to borrow a phrase from ’Nam, the REMFs that make the rules that get the grunts killed. Irregular Warfare (IW) is a totally different animal from the types of warfare taught at various military schools. Unlike traditional warfare it is totally personality driven. Trust is built up over years and decades not weeks. Yet, we insist on rotating troops and leaders on a regular basis. Trust me when I say Vietnam wasn’t a war that lasted 19 years (first death to last death) but 38 6-month rotations of leadership into and out of the field. The conflict in Afghanistan, now approaching its eleventh birthday, has a similar rotation cycle and will fail for the same reasons.

IMHO, another third of the blame falls on the politicians. This was a known fact as early as the 2002 mid-term elections. If the Republic is committing its future, our young soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines, into a war political posturing for individual and party gain is nothing short of treason and must be punished as such. Read the internal memos from North Vietnam’s Politburo circa 1968-1970. They openly stated that their only hope for success was creating and maintaining political divisions within the US. Even Usama bin Laden said this. Either everyone involved is in it to win or don’t go at all.

The final third are minor bits and pieces when compared to the other two discussed above.

43 posted on 08/30/2012 9:53:52 AM PDT by Nip (TANSTAAFL and BOHICA)
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To: lurk

If we leave it will become a haven for radical muslims and they will is it to launch attacks against us. Period.

In 2001 Osama bin Laden said something to the extent of:

“Don’t worry about the Americans. They think in terms of years and decades. We think in terms of centuries. They will leave and we will win.”


44 posted on 08/30/2012 12:33:06 PM PDT by oldleft
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To: shove_it

Back at the start of the war, Pentagon lawyers kept drone operators from attacking a convoy containing bin Laden’s wives and offspring. Never mind that the Al Qaeda bodyguards, and the vehicles were legal targets with a lovely “collateral damage” filling, they were not allowed to attack the convoy.

From that moment on, I knew we were going to lose. I have occasionally had hope, but, based of the current attitudes and ROEs, we don’t have a chance.

I mean, we BEAT Al Qaeda and the Taliban. We don’t have to respect their “culture.” They should have to respect OUR culture (not to mention orders) on pain of protracted and humiliating death.

But nope. We play stupid games while uniformed Afghanis whom we have trained murder our soldiers.


45 posted on 08/30/2012 1:05:57 PM PDT by Little Ray (AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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