Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

San Antonio Man Tells TTAG How He (Probably) Stopped a Murder(TX)
The Truth About Guns ^ | 30 August, 2012 | Dan Zimmerman

Posted on 08/31/2012 5:59:31 AM PDT by marktwain

Nick posted a DGU story yesterday of a man who was stabbing his wife in the neck outside their child’s San Antonio elementary school when a Texas CHL holder pulled his gun and stopped the attack. The good samaritan has contacted TTAG and here’s his account of what happened:

I am the guy that pulled my KelTec P3AT on the guy yesterday morning. Just to clear up the confusion, I was walking down S. St. Mary’s street IN FRONT OF Bonham Academy. I first thought that the guy was beating someone, and I ran toward him ordering him to stop. He looked at me and ignored me . . .

When I saw the blood and the knife I was about 10 or 15 ft. away from him. I pulled my gun, aimed it at him, and yelled at him again. Again he looked at me and ignored me. When he began stabbing her again I yelled to him as loud as I could. He again turned and looked at me. I told him, “dude do you see what I have aimed at your head?” He immediately dropped the knife and asked me to call 911. All of this happened in the middle of S. St. Mary’s street, not in the school parking lot. I was not charged with anything.

If you look at the :51 point on the attached KSAT 12 video, that’s me in the Bass Pro Shops t-shirt, and my wife standing next to me. I’d like to remain as anonymous as possible for obvious reasons. I’ve told all of the news sources that I do not want to be interviewed, and I don’t want my name released.

My concern is that I want the public to see that an average guy with a CHL can stop a crime as it is being committed, and in this case, no shots were fired. I’m praying that I was able to stop this guy before he did irreparable damage to his ex-wife.

I will tell you that my name is Fred. I am 62 years old, and I’ve had my CHL for about 18 months. This was the first time that I have had to aim the gun at another human being. I was never sure if I could; I now know that I can. I offered last night via email to speak at a CHL class, (for free of course), but the instructor has not answered my email. When this guy goes to trial, my name will probably be public. After the incident I was taken to the SAPD Homicide Unit where I gave a sworn statement and made a positive identification of the suspect.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: armedcitizen; banglist; defense; domestic; tx
We need to repeal the Gun Free School Zone act. If the original act had been in place, this would have been illegal.

Even now, some people claim that if this may had a permit recognized by Texas, from another state, this would be illegal.

1 posted on 08/31/2012 5:59:33 AM PDT by marktwain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: marktwain
Keep it simple, repeal all firearms laws, the second amendment is enough.
2 posted on 08/31/2012 6:12:32 AM PDT by exnavy (The time is upon us, fish or cut bait, may God guide your heart.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain; Joe Brower

Outstanding!


3 posted on 08/31/2012 6:14:05 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

Tha sad part is he can be charged with aggravated assault. You cannot pull your weapon as a method of stopping a crime. You are only allowed to pull it when you use it to stop the crime with its bullets. This is chl 101. Chls are not law enforcement. I hope that nothing comes of this man who did a great thing but I am afraid he will be taken to court multiple times.


4 posted on 08/31/2012 6:14:13 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

“Even now, some people claim that if this may had a permit recognized by Texas, from another state, this would be illegal.”

There is no variance in the application of law, regardless of where your license was issued as long as the license is recognized by the State Of Texas and you can check that on the DPS website.

As long as a legal out of state carrier remembers that his own state laws have no validity in Texas and as long as they adhere to Texas law, they are subject to the same laws as a Texas CHL holder.


5 posted on 08/31/2012 6:15:15 AM PDT by ReconViper 1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

Mr Clemens,

“You cannot pull your weapon as a method of stopping a crime.”

You may legally use a gun to end the aggression, whether you fire it or not.

I don’t think you are from Texas.


6 posted on 08/31/2012 6:17:24 AM PDT by ReconViper 1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

Incorrect. If you are being approached and ask someone to stop, you may pull your weapon to reenforce the point of asking them to stop, and then proceed to fill them full of holes to make them stop.


7 posted on 08/31/2012 6:23:08 AM PDT by TheZMan (Obama is without a doubt the worst President ever elected to these United States)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: ReconViper 1

I am from Texas and licensed. You may not brandish in the state of Texas.


8 posted on 08/31/2012 6:26:00 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: TheZMan

PENAL CODE

TITLE 9. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND DECENCY

CHAPTER 42. DISORDERLY CONDUCT AND RELATED OFFENSES

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;


9 posted on 08/31/2012 6:27:20 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: marktwain; harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
This guy did good. Very good.

As for the 'brandishing' bit, well, if you display your firearm with the obvious next intent of firing it if pressed, where is 'brandishing' superceded by 'legal use of lethal force to prevent bodily harm to oneself or another'?

In other words, is open display of a concealed weapon 'brandishing' until you pull the trigger? Are you expected to keep your sidearms in your pocket until you actually fire? I think not.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

10 posted on 08/31/2012 6:35:07 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain; waterhill; ixtl
Wow! This guy showed a tremendous amount of self-control. I can only hope I could exhibit such restraint.

He would have been perfectly justified in blowing the guy away per Texas law.

CHL (((ping)))!

11 posted on 08/31/2012 6:35:19 AM PDT by Envisioning (Call me a racist........, one more time..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: phalynx
Nope, not brandishing. It's not "in a manner calculated to alarm". It's in a manner calculated to stop the commission of a violent felony.

Not up on the details of TX law, but there's a common law (and in most states a statutory) "justification" rule - actions taken in self-defense or in defense of others constitute an exception to most crimes such as simple or aggravated assault, battery, and of course manslaughter/murder.

12 posted on 08/31/2012 6:44:21 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

I would say that in Florida where the law says you can use your weapon to prevent bodily harm to yourself or another, this would not fall under “brandishing”.

If it would then if you did pull your gun and the bad guy dropped his knife you’d have to say, “Sorry dude. I pulled my gun on you but even though you dropped the knife I gotta cap you otherwise I’ll be charged with brandishing.”


13 posted on 08/31/2012 6:46:29 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: marktwain
"I will tell you that my name is Fred. I am 62 years old, and I’ve had my CHL for about 18 months. "

Bad move Fred, if this is real information. You've just given enough information that someone's got you ID'd even as I type this.

14 posted on 08/31/2012 6:57:57 AM PDT by OKSooner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

That’s not brandishing. I’m also a CHL holder in Texas. You may most certainly show a weapon to back somebody off or stop a crime in progress.


15 posted on 08/31/2012 7:06:07 AM PDT by jagusafr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: VeniVidiVici
“Sorry dude. I pulled my gun on you but even though you dropped the knife I gotta cap you otherwise I’ll be charged with brandishing.”

LOL!

16 posted on 08/31/2012 7:09:41 AM PDT by Envisioning (Call me a racist........, one more time..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: phalynx
displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

Good grief!

He wasn't 'brandishing' to scare the public, he was preparing for the lawful use of a firearm.

17 posted on 08/31/2012 7:18:49 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: VeniVidiVici
I am only saying what the law is. I don't agree with it. It is what it is.

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

I would say pulling your gun to stop the crime is "calculated to alarm". In class you are taught, pull it when you use it only. The good law in Texas is, if you believe you were in the right when you used it, it was legal. (when used within all other laws)
18 posted on 08/31/2012 7:19:57 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

“You cannot pull your weapon as a method of stopping a crime. You are only allowed to pull it when you use it to stop the crime with its bullets. This is chl 101.”

Where did you get that nonsense? You can aim a weapon at someone anytime the need to shoot arises but in doing so the you not obligated to actually shoot, and you cannot shoot if the bad guy no longer is a threat.


19 posted on 08/31/2012 7:32:56 AM PDT by CodeToad (Be Prepared...They Are.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

“(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;”

Now post the law that says a person may use a weapon in defense of life of another person.

To try to claim aiming a weapon at someone trying to kill another person is “to alarm” is not understanding the law. Of course it gets the other person’s attention, that’s what guns do, but that law you posted is not about defense of life it is about menacing.

You are trying to claim a person MUST shoot if they draw a weapon or else face penalties under the law you posted, and no they do not.


20 posted on 08/31/2012 7:37:21 AM PDT by CodeToad (Be Prepared...They Are.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad
Hey guys, don't shoot the messenger.. The law is written, well, like a law is.. Please feel free to read it as you wish. I am not a lawyer. I don't give legal advice. I merely stated that the guy could wind up in trouble.

Texas CHL Law
21 posted on 08/31/2012 7:42:53 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

The threatened use of lethal force is justified when the use of lethal force is justified for self defense or defense of a third person. He could have shot the guy— he was justified to stopmthis deadly assault. Instead he threatened the use of (lethal) force.

See sections 9.02 and 9.32.

I would hope the good citizen would shoot not shout, if coming to my aid in a similar circumstance.


22 posted on 08/31/2012 7:48:38 AM PDT by nonsporting
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

We’re just giving you a hard time. :)

I think it’s a bit different than if you were driving down the road and, say, in response to somebody cutting you off you show them your weapon. That would be brandishing.

Some places are even so anal as to charge one with brandishing if you accidentally expose your weapon. Like if you are carrying on your hip with a windbreaker and the coat rides up your back to expose your gun. I don’t agree with the brandishing charge in this case but there are some here who will say you should be tossed in klink for it.


23 posted on 08/31/2012 7:53:41 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: nonsporting
I stand corrected:

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
24 posted on 08/31/2012 7:56:02 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: phalynx
Tha sad part is he can be charged with aggravated assault. You cannot pull your weapon as a method of stopping a crime. You are only allowed to pull it when you use it to stop the crime with its bullets. This is chl 101. Chls are not law enforcement.

Are you in law enforcement?

I hope that nothing comes of this man who did a great thing but I am afraid he will be taken to court multiple times.

Your concern is touching.

25 posted on 08/31/2012 7:58:37 AM PDT by Ken H
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

See, ya gotta read ALL the words. Thanks for posting that.


26 posted on 08/31/2012 7:58:50 AM PDT by CodeToad (Be Prepared...They Are.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: VeniVidiVici

Yeah, I believe that most peace officers wouldn’t go that far if you were doing everything else right.... CHL’s are good, legal people. They are certified so.. God bless Texas....


27 posted on 08/31/2012 8:00:52 AM PDT by phalynx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: ReconViper 1; All
There is no variance in the application of law, regardless of where your license was issued as long as the license is recognized by the State Of Texas and you can check that on the DPS website.

That is likely correct, as far as Texas law is concerned. It is the federal gun free school zone act that is in question. It grants an exception for those holding a permit issued by the jurisdiction that the school is in, which some interpret to mean that out of state permits are not included in that exception.

28 posted on 08/31/2012 8:02:25 AM PDT by marktwain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

Ye gawds....the man HAD A GUN IN A SCHOOL ZONE. I’m sure they’ll let the guy who was stabbing his wife go scott free and throw the gun owner/hero in jail (sarcasm...I know that would never happen in Texas.....up North, OTOH.........).


29 posted on 08/31/2012 8:06:51 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: phalynx
"Chls are not law enforcement. "

Yes they are, as is any other citizen. The term "citizen's arrest" is a very old common-law concept.

30 posted on 08/31/2012 8:09:37 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Joe Brower
As for the 'brandishing' bit, well, if you display your firearm with the obvious next intent of firing it if pressed, where is 'brandishing' superceded by 'legal use of lethal force to prevent bodily harm to oneself or another'?

What the hell are you supposed to do, convince the bad guy you have a gun in your pocket and will take it out and shoot him unless he stands down? What's the point of having a gun in the first place, you could do that (or give it just a good a try) completely unarmed.

31 posted on 08/31/2012 8:19:18 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: OKSooner
Bad move Fred, if this is real information. You've just given enough information that someone's got you ID'd even as I type this.

When I read it I assumed at least the name was false. IOW, true enough to make his point about CHL's and no more true than that.

32 posted on 08/31/2012 8:23:35 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

But..but..but… Gun Free Zones [aka self-defense free zones] protect people, don’t they??


33 posted on 08/31/2012 8:37:48 AM PDT by HammerT (The Obama Recession, you bone it you own it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Still Thinking

My point exactly.


34 posted on 08/31/2012 9:17:43 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Joe Brower

People are morons sometimes (you and me excepted, of course!)


35 posted on 08/31/2012 9:27:33 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

The messenger’s not paying attention.


36 posted on 08/31/2012 10:01:04 AM PDT by green iguana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

Nevermind... sometimes you need to read the whole thread before posting.


37 posted on 08/31/2012 10:02:53 AM PDT by green iguana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

Why isn’t the “father” charged with attempted murder, as well?


38 posted on 08/31/2012 12:39:26 PM PDT by ro_dreaming (G.K. Chesterton, “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It’s been found hard and lef)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: phalynx
In class you are taught, pull it when you use it only.

No, you can pull it when you would be justified in using it.

Get another instructor the next time you renew your CHL.

39 posted on 08/31/2012 4:27:01 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: phalynx
In class you are taught, pull it when you use it only.

No, you can pull it when you would be justified in using it.

Get another instructor the next time you renew your CHL.

40 posted on 08/31/2012 4:27:14 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: El Gato

My last CHL instructor is a woman, and she most likely would have just shot the guy after the first warning, it not before. And she’s have been justified based on the facts presented. She’s also a hell of a good shot, and could easily have shot the perp without endangering the victim, or bystanders.. unlike the New York City PD.


41 posted on 08/31/2012 4:35:16 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

A CHL is not “displaying a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm”.

Are you a carrier? Because you’re sounding a lot like you’re not.


42 posted on 08/31/2012 5:41:21 PM PDT by TheZMan (Obama is without a doubt the worst President ever elected to these United States)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

I replied to you before reading through the rest of the thread. Good find.


43 posted on 08/31/2012 5:44:26 PM PDT by TheZMan (Obama is without a doubt the worst President ever elected to these United States)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: marktwain
I pulled my gun, aimed it at him, and yelled at him again. Again he looked at me and ignored me. When he began stabbing her again I yelled to him as loud as I could.

I'd have shot him right then, not yelled again. He or his heirs, could sue me, but she'd not have been stabbed again.

44 posted on 08/31/2012 7:28:19 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: phalynx

“Hey guys, don’t shoot the messenger.”

If the messenger can’t understand the law, then yes, he deserves to be shot (although I wouldn’t do that). If this guy could be arrested for trying to stop a violent crime without shooting, then many, many, other Texans, along with him, would have been arrested by now.

So please point us to those articles, so we don’t think you’re trolling.


45 posted on 08/31/2012 8:43:50 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: exnavy

It’s certainly enough for us, but for the hoplophobes, it’s doomsday.


46 posted on 09/01/2012 12:16:23 AM PDT by wastedyears (The First Law of Heavy Metal: Not all metal is satanic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: wastedyears
but for the hoplophobes, it’s doomsday.

So then you agree, it's just right! ;)

47 posted on 09/01/2012 8:31:43 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson