France and Germany moving towards closer political union

EU Observer ^ | 30.08.12 @ 10:58 (August 30) | Valentina Pop

[Olog-hai]

Last year, Germany went out on a limb by calling for political union in Europe. The idea was met with little enthusiasm elsewhere in the eurozone, but particularly in France.

After the election of French President François Hollande in May, it seemed that views of the EU's foremost political duo could not be further apart.

But the mood has since changed, and serious plans are underway to create—if not a full political union, then something close to it. …

Meanwhile, EU council president Herman Van Rompuy and others are drawing up a paper to upgrade the eurozone, which will be discussed by EU leaders at a summit on 18-19 October. It will include elements for a political union, but also for a fiscal union—surrendering more budgetary powers to Brussels—considered key for the survival of the single currency. …

[bravo whiskey]

I read a book with this plot line once.....

CAULDRON by larry bond. the goos guys are poland and hungary and us and britain, russia is borderline and the french end up trying to screw the germans.

[AZLiberty]

Sounds Vichy to me.

[Paladin2]

France needs to return all of the vowels they have stolen from the Slavs.

[Paladin2]

Ja wohl.

[Paladin2]

Compared to German, English is very problematic concerning phonetic spellings.

[ctdonath2]

Nothing like fixing a failed policy by doubling down on it.

[Red Badger]

Ten kings will give The Beast their power.........

[Red Badger]

We have always been at war with Eurasia, Winston........

[Cronos]

quite different. Note that Germany is a very Federal, decentralized country with their federal government having less power than ours. In contrast, France is a very centralized country -- everything revolves around Paris.

For the Germans to move an administrative role from Berlin to Brussels is little more than the move from Bonn to Berlin. the individual states in Germany will remain powerful and independent.

it's the same in Spain.

But France would have a problem giving up power to Brussels because it would go against 400 years of French history and admin

[Cronos]

thanks, isn’t the EU enough of a union as it is?

Yes. the commercial union was fine, but I wonder if a defensive pact will really mean that Germany would fight Russia if it invades Estonia or Latvia...

[Cronos]

In some ways it's not a bad idea -- with a caveat

Let me point out the good example: Tyrol. For centuries this has been a German-Italian mix. But post WWI it was given to Italy even though South Tyrol was heavily German. The idea to devolve powers to the local government there helped prevent tensions and the locals take control of their own lands

in the case of France and Italy it would be good for Savoy to be the same way and also for Brittany, Gascoigne and Normandy to have the same

The Germans and Spanish and Italians as I noted above have a lot of decentralization

in the rest of Europe each country is a different case -- the smaller ones like Luxemboourg, Liechtenstein or Croatia or Slovakia are already very ethnically specific

Poland had a lot of regional differences and huge minorities but that was ended with WWII and with Poland being pushed physically to the west (losing 1/3rd of it's land in the east) and becoming mono-ethnic.

For the UK, this is already happening with devolution to Scotland, Wales etc. But in England the problem is due to the large numbers of non-English there. I don't know the easy answer to that.

[mo]

I’m quite sure the French Bankers and German Bankers see this as an opportunity/solution....just as did the Vichy French and the Nazi’s........

[bert]

——Germany would fight Russia if it invades Estonia or Latvia...-—

If Turkey attacked Russia from the rear, would Greece help?

[Cronos]

to understand the battle of France, one needs to look at the sweep of history from 1870 the Battle of Sedan right through to 1940.

And before that, to remember three clear points dating from the late 1700s:

1. the French revolution started off the idea of nationalism -- prior to that, only 10% spoke Parisian French (made standard French), now French is the only official language. During the 1800s the English anglicized the Welsh, Cornish, Scots etc., the Germans forced standard German and tried to Germanize Poles and Sorbians, and the Russians, Italians etc. did the same thing. In the case of Germany this created a nation of a group of nations -- Germanic nations. The temperaments of a Prussian differed quite a bit from a Bavarians etc.
   
2. Napoleon redrew the map of Germany. Before his invasion and conquest of Germany there were 300 different states. he reduced this to 20 odd. And then after he was defeated the Prussians became very powerful and Austria was getting weaker. The French created their nemesis
   
3. France had lost Alsace and Lorraine (though these are truly in the Franco-German continuum, not truly French or German but in transition), setting up bad blood
   
4. France lost a lot of soldiers in the trenches in WWI -- they were reluctant to fight. Remember that much of the war was fought on their territory or Belgium's. Germany never fought on its own territory. When they saw the destruction of their own cities, the Germans have become anti-war

[Cronos]

Really?

you mean like the Frogs fighting during the Revolutionary war to help kick the Brits out?

Or during the Napoleonic wars when they kicked the butts of most of Europe?

Or during their wars in Algeria, Indo-China etc.? Or how they fight now in West Africa to keep their "colonies in all but name" still resolutely French?

[Olog-hai]

There are still lots of hawks among Germany’s elite politicians. And they know how to manipulate the opinion of the generally “anti-war” (no such thing, BTW) populace.

[Olog-hai]

What “commercial union” do you speak of?

I already pointed out that the European Economic Community’s chief purpose was to (as the Treaty of Rome puts it) “lay the foundations for an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe”. Therefore it was (and is) an imperialistic construct.

Putin is already building his own version of the USSR, calling it (either in tribute or mockery of the EU) the Eurasian Union.

[Olog-hai]

Germany’s federal government has less power than whom?

The Bundestag and the Constitutional Court have the power to approve every EU law. It's been doing that behind the scenes, but got that power formally back in 2009 when the Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe openly gave it to them and itself. I’d say that makes it more powerful than the USA’s federal government at this point, giving it power over 26 other EU member states and yet more states beyond that are in the European Economic Area that have to comply with EU law. Der Spiegel quotes the Süddeutsche Zeitung here:

German politicians will need to become involved with every new law, no matter how small. The excuse, “Oh, those people in Brussels did it,” just won’t fly anymore. And with this decision, European integration becomes part of Germany's domestic politics. Brussels is no longer just a side dish, but a main course; and local politicians are going to have to come to grips with what happens there. …

As long as the constitution remains valid (and it can only be superseded by a national referendum), Karlsruhe is likely to have the last word on issues of jurisprudence and the constitution—even over the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg. This could cause some tension and conflict. But anything is better than apathy. …

[SierraWasp]

"I read a book with this plot line once....."

Is this it?

http://www.questia.com/read/1G1-20351795/concert-pianist-vazsonyi-says-america-is-like-beethoven-s