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Tungsten-Filled 10 Oz Gold Bar Found In The Middle Of Manhattan's Jewelry District
zero hedge ^

Posted on 09/18/2012 7:08:59 PM PDT by Perdogg

It is one thing for tungsten-filled gold bars to appear in the UK, or in Germany: after all out of sight, and across the Atlantic, certainly must mean out of mind, and out of the safe. However, when a 10 ounce 999.9 gold bar bearing the stamp of the reputable Swiss Produits Artistiques Métaux Précieux (PAMP, with owner MTP) and a serial number (serial #038892, likely rehypothecated in at least 10 gold ETFs across the world but that's a different story), mysteriously emerges in the heart of the world's jewerly district located on 47th street in Manhattan, things get real quick. Moments ago, Myfoxny reported that a 10-ounce gold bar costing nearly $18,000 turned out to be a counterfeit. The discovery was made by the dealer Ibrahim Fadl, who bought the PAMP bar in question from a merchant who has sold him real gold before. "But he heard counterfeit gold bars were going around, so he drilled into several of his gold bars worth $100,000 and saw gray tungsten -- not gold. The bar was filled with tungsten, which weighs nearly the same as gold but costs just over a dollar an ounce."

(Excerpt) Read more at zerohedge.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; US: New York
KEYWORDS: bar; district; filled; gold; goldbar; jewelry; manhattan; manhattans; middle; tungsten
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1 posted on 09/18/2012 7:09:06 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: blam; SeekAndFind; TigerLikesRooster

ping


2 posted on 09/18/2012 7:10:28 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Perdogg

The guy should watch Pawn Stars!


3 posted on 09/18/2012 7:11:39 PM PDT by mojo114 (Pray for our military)
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To: Perdogg

When you heard of ‘ghost steel’ in China, you knew a gold fraud was close behind.


4 posted on 09/18/2012 7:12:04 PM PDT by griswold3 (Big Government does not tolerate rivals.)
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To: Perdogg

Pat Buchanan just said

Barack Obama drug dealer of welfare

Tomorrows headline!


5 posted on 09/18/2012 7:12:50 PM PDT by Freddd (No PA Engineers)
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To: Perdogg

Civilization is founded on trust. No trust, no civilization.


6 posted on 09/18/2012 7:14:04 PM PDT by DManA
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To: Perdogg

I heard some speculation about a month ago that it may be a lot worse than this. They were talking Fort Knox. Can’t remember where I heard it.


7 posted on 09/18/2012 7:14:43 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (The United States of America apologizing to knuckledragging, cavedwelling Neandethals. Whodda thunk!)
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To: Perdogg

Just buy tungsten bars. If you buy a gold bar and someone fills it with tungsten, then you lose, but if you buy a tungsten barm, and someone fills it with gold, then whoopie!


8 posted on 09/18/2012 7:14:55 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: Perdogg

Meanwhile the fed is “rehypothecating” money all over the place.


9 posted on 09/18/2012 7:15:10 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Perdogg
MTB, the Swiss manufacturer of the gold bars, said customers should only buy from a reputable merchant. The problem, he admits, is Ibrahim Fadl is a very reputable merchant.

Major fail revealed in that sentence. If you are not a reputable merchant, how are you going to sell your gold? What good is $10,000,000 worth of gold if no one will buy, or trade with you because they can't trust it's gold?

10 posted on 09/18/2012 7:18:23 PM PDT by DManA
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To: Vince Ferrer

And it only costs a buck. (That’s $10,000 in 2014 dollars)


11 posted on 09/18/2012 7:19:52 PM PDT by DManA
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To: Perdogg

People should start buying gold in the half bar. Only accept it after it’s been sheared in half leaving the center exposed.


12 posted on 09/18/2012 7:20:38 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (With (R)epublicans like these, who needs (D)emocrats?)
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To: Perdogg
I wonder if the "bars" came from Jon Corzine, around the time that MF Global, Inc. was in trouble?

Perhaps the serial numbers could be traced back? As in the gold they were holding in the alleged customer accounts?

13 posted on 09/18/2012 7:21:03 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Perdogg

No Au? Ibrahim Fadl should fill the merchant with Pb.


14 posted on 09/18/2012 7:22:59 PM PDT by PGalt
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To: Perdogg

Since it looks like a word that will be coming into common usage pretty quickly.

Definition of ‘Rehypothecation’

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rehypothecation.asp#axzz26sWE3T8T

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothecation


15 posted on 09/18/2012 7:25:23 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
People should start buying gold in the half bar. Only accept it after it’s been sheared in half leaving the center exposed.

There is a test that dearlers can use. Dealers seem to use an acid test, which of course tests the surface. But the surface of these is gold, so it passes. but there are tests that are acoustic or magnetic/electrical which can test for tungsten inside gold. Dealers just need to use them.

16 posted on 09/18/2012 7:25:39 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: cripplecreek

thank you


17 posted on 09/18/2012 7:26:44 PM PDT by Perdogg
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To: Vince Ferrer

I thought Archimedes solved this problem 2500 years ago.


18 posted on 09/18/2012 7:28:51 PM PDT by DManA
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
"People should start buying gold in the half bar. Only accept it after it’s been sheared in half leaving the center exposed."

No need. Portable X-ray Fluorescence instruments are easily available and can readily distinguish between tungsten and gold. Non-destructive, no cutting/shearing needed.

19 posted on 09/18/2012 7:30:00 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Perdogg; cripplecreek; Kenny Bunk; Smokin' Joe; Tax-chick; Calusa; LucyT; SunkenCiv; ...
Like, *PING*, dudes and dude-ettes.

(Considering the article I posted from ZeroHedge on Rehypothecation...?)

(Thanks, Perdogg.)

Cheers!

20 posted on 09/18/2012 7:30:32 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

Portable XRF Instrument:

http://www.niton.com/en/


21 posted on 09/18/2012 7:32:00 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Perdogg

Frankly it sounds like manipulation of collateral to me.

I’m just learning the term so my understanding is petty rough.

If you borrowed from me and used your house as collateral and I borrowed from someone else and also used your house as collateral.


22 posted on 09/18/2012 7:32:28 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Wonder Warthog
No need. Portable X-ray Fluorescence instruments are easily available and can readily distinguish between tungsten and gold. Non-destructive, no cutting/shearing needed.

Thanks, Wonder.

Better living through (analytical) chemistry / chemical physics! (sound of grey_whiskers purring).

Cheers!

23 posted on 09/18/2012 7:32:56 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: DManA

The reason why tungsten is being used is because it has nearly the same density as gold.

They are going to have to resort to electromagnetic scanners or something.


24 posted on 09/18/2012 7:33:11 PM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: Perdogg
Turns out ultrasound is useful for more than looking at fetuses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FvM_4B7Pkc

Gold's density is 19.30 g/cc, whereas tungsten's is 19.25 g/cc. Assuming its outer dimensions were not changed, the 10 oz bar should be about 0.7 grams lighter.

25 posted on 09/18/2012 7:34:18 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: DManA

I thought Archimedes solved this problem 2500 years ago.

A properly weighted gold/tungsten/lead bar would pass the Archimedes test...


26 posted on 09/18/2012 7:34:20 PM PDT by GraceG
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To: GraceG

It would not pass hydrostatic specific gravity measurement


27 posted on 09/18/2012 7:36:27 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that TAKE the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 Gun grabbers beware.)
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To: GraceG

Also people have wondered if Archimedes was capable of measuring the differences in water volumes precisely enough.


28 posted on 09/18/2012 7:37:46 PM PDT by DManA
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To: FlingWingFlyer

The Republicans just added a plank to the platform about auditing Fort Knox, throwing a bone to Ron Paul. Why do I have a feeling that even if Romney is reelecting and we take both houses of Congress that nothing will ever come of that?


29 posted on 09/18/2012 7:38:01 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Dr.Zoidberg

Or circulation golden eagles.


30 posted on 09/18/2012 7:40:15 PM PDT by DManA
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To: GraceG

An object denser than water will only displace its volume, so it would not matter if this was lead, copper, quartz, or gold. They all would displace the same amount of liquid given it has the same dimensions.


31 posted on 09/18/2012 7:43:27 PM PDT by LukeL (Barack Obama: Jimmy Carter 2 Electric Boogaloo)
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To: DManA
Civilization is founded on trust. No trust, no civilization.

True statement and fundamental as well.

Who can we trust today? Not our governments. Not our institutions such as universities, religious or even charitable institutions. The Hard Left has thoroughly infiltrated all of them and corrupted all of them.

When it reaches the point where we can not even trust one another, we become the 3rd world and all hell breaks lose.

32 posted on 09/18/2012 7:43:32 PM PDT by Ditto (Nov 2, 2010 -- Partial cleaning accomplished. More trash to remove in 2012)
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To: Wonder Warthog
"Portable X-ray Fluorescence instruments are easily available and can readily distinguish between tungsten and gold. Non-destructive, no cutting/shearing needed."

XRF machines are about $15K and really only detect the surface of the metal under test. They are also a tad tricky to use. If a bogus bar was tungsten and merely gold-plated, it would probably fail such a test. But if it started out as a genuine PAMP gold bar and was then drilled, like the bars pictured below (which are silver, not gold, and with lead inserts, not tungsten, but I show them for the fakery technique) with tungsten rods inserted, I have some doubt an XRF assay would reveal the fake core(s).

Photobucket

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyQSSmVcb6c

33 posted on 09/18/2012 7:48:23 PM PDT by Attention Surplus Disorder (This stuff we're going through now, this is nothing compared to the middle ages.)
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To: DManA

His problem involved silver melted into the gold.
This is more insidious, in that tungsten and gold weigh nearly the same, so the volume is also nearly the same.......


34 posted on 09/18/2012 7:49:05 PM PDT by Red Badger (Anyone who thinks wisdom comes with age is either too young or too stupid to know the difference....)
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To: Vince Ferrer
Just buy tungsten bars. If you buy a gold bar and someone fills it with tungsten, then you lose, but if you buy a tungsten bar, and someone fills it with gold, then whoopie!

LOL, excellent out-of-the-box thinking. If I should ever become President, I'm appointing you Secretary of the Treasury.

And I will require each cabinet member to use the word "woopie" at least once in every report.

35 posted on 09/18/2012 7:54:01 PM PDT by Leaning Right
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To: Perdogg

When my team finishes perfecting our molecular fabricator, which will make 4oz per hour of 24kt gold, the market will crash and burn.


36 posted on 09/18/2012 7:54:37 PM PDT by montag813
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To: DManA
Or circulation golden eagles.

Coins can be faked just as easily.

Gold Plated Tungsten Coin

Tungsten Heavy Alloy Fake Gold

Tungsten Heavy Alloy Fake Gold Application

37 posted on 09/18/2012 7:59:49 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: Perdogg

A government job. Only question is, which government?


38 posted on 09/18/2012 8:01:58 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: Perdogg

those Chinese are so wild and crazy with their fake economy


39 posted on 09/18/2012 8:02:22 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Ditto; DManA
When it reaches the point where we can not even trust one another, we become the 3rd world and all hell breaks lose.

Seems like all is going as planned.

40 posted on 09/18/2012 8:04:59 PM PDT by stevio (God, guns, guts.)
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To: DManA

lol.

Now THAT is inflation


41 posted on 09/18/2012 8:06:09 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Vince Ferrer

on that Pawn Stars show someone came in with a gold brick and they drilled several holes and did the acid test to the shavings from inside.

It was real.


42 posted on 09/18/2012 8:07:49 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: montag813

Goldfinger would pay you a visit.


43 posted on 09/18/2012 8:07:49 PM PDT by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, Democrats believe every day is April 15th.)
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To: LukeL
An object denser than water will only displace its volume, so it would not matter if this was lead, copper, quartz, or gold. They all would displace the same amount of liquid given it has the same dimensions.

The purpose of displacing the water is merely to obtain an accurate measurement of the irregularly shaped supposed gold bar's volume. The density of the object being measured doesn't matter, as long as it's fully immersed.

E.g., if the gold bar displaces 14.6888 cc of water, then it should weigh 283.49384 grams, or 10 oz. On, the other hand if it's 95% tungsten, it will only weigh about 282.796 grams. Gold is 19.30 g/cc, whereas tungsten is only 19.25 g/cc.

I suppose you could make it more interesting by mixing in some osmium, which is 22.59 g/cc, but, unlike tungsten, osmium is expensive. Back in high school, a kid I knew had got his hands on the coin sorting mechanism of a coke machine. He found that it worked based on the magnetic properties of the coins, as well as their size and weight. For instance, a quarter-sized slug punched out of a lead sheet went straight down the reject path. However, he found that if he glued on a small fleck of iron foil, the hybrid slug would work just fine.

44 posted on 09/18/2012 8:07:54 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Perdogg

45 posted on 09/18/2012 8:10:49 PM PDT by diverteach (If I find liberals in heaven after my death.....I WILL BE PISSED!!!)
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To: Mr. Jeeves; Perdogg

It’s after the Great Fall...

The Provisional United States of South-East America?

Cuz, I’m getting a plumb job in the Provision Free Republic of Texas!


46 posted on 09/18/2012 8:12:39 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Perdogg
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

47 posted on 09/18/2012 8:13:12 PM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Perdogg

Loved the art work
Too bad it’s hollow ....


48 posted on 09/18/2012 8:15:43 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder
"XRF machines are about $15K

Correct, but I doubt that any facility that is worried about this problem would be unable to afford the $15K.

...and really only detect the surface of the metal under test."

Incorrect. X-rays penetrate quite nicely, in both directions. This isn't photoelectron spectroscopy, which "is" very depth limited. Yes, there "are" shielding effects based on atomic number of substrate, so penetration depth "is" better for lighter elements, but I would certainly expect mm's of penetration if not cm's. I suspect one can get charts from the mfg. with the requisite info.

"They are also a tad tricky to use."

Hardly. Correct interpretation of data requires some knowledge, but "use" is about a simple as it gets....hold it against the "target" and "pull/hold the trigger".

And yes, I've looked at the ubiquitous stories that all contain the statement "it passed a hand-held XRF test". One even claimed that XRF "..only penetrates the first 0.001 inch", which is complete BS. I suspect this was a completely untrained operator that was using it as a "magic box".

49 posted on 09/18/2012 8:16:41 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: DManA

Pretty much. A scale and a graduated cylinder is all I need...


50 posted on 09/18/2012 8:16:48 PM PDT by stormer
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