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Massive Engine Failure (Russian/Indian Carrier)
Strategy Page ^ | Sept 21, 2012

Posted on 09/21/2012 3:15:50 AM PDT by ryan71

On September 18th Russia told India that delivery of the refurbished Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov (since renamed the INS Vikramaditya) would be delayed ten months. The problem is that seven of eight steam boilers in the carrier power plant failed during recent high-speed trials. The Russians blame India for this, as the Indians refused to allow the Russians to use asbestos to insulate the steam boilers. Instead the Russians had to use firebrick which, as some engineers suspected, was not adequate. Now extensive work has to be done on the engines to rectify the problem. India is not happy with yet another delay. The Gorshkov served in the Russian Navy from 1987 to 1995, but was then withdrawn from service because the navy could not afford to keep the carrier operational. Gorshkov was put up for sale and in 2005 India agreed to buy a refurbished Gorshkov.

(Excerpt) Read more at strategypage.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: navair

1 posted on 09/21/2012 3:15:56 AM PDT by ryan71
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To: ryan71

Might as well tow it around with a few tugs. ;-)


2 posted on 09/21/2012 3:25:40 AM PDT by Average Al (The Democrat party is a free range zoo.)
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To: ryan71

I have to assume this was a cost-cutting measure, since I can’t imagine any other reason to use firebrick, when there are other non-asbestos insulators available now.


3 posted on 09/21/2012 3:42:41 AM PDT by Little Pig (Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.)
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To: ryan71

Nice to know that the “Great Un-Natural Acts”, America’s ‘environmental laws’ are just as destructive when applied by and among socialists as they have been in America.

Oh, yeah - those “Great Un-Natural Acts” are called that not as a Clinton joke but because they mandate what physics and biology have proven has never been and can never be.


4 posted on 09/21/2012 3:44:46 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: ryan71

5 posted on 09/21/2012 3:47:31 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!)
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To: ryan71

You can’t run from Sea Wolf or Virginia class submarines any way.


6 posted on 09/21/2012 3:48:03 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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To: Little Pig

The chances of this working out well were vanishingly small. A carrier is an immensely complicated thing. If this had not gone wrong (if this is what actually went wrong) it would have been something else.


7 posted on 09/21/2012 3:50:19 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!)
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To: ryan71

If I remember right the Indians got screwed on a plane deal too. Buy some tanks and make it a trifecta. When you shop at Crazy Ivan’s Discount Army & Navy Store, you’d better get a written warranty.


8 posted on 09/21/2012 3:53:26 AM PDT by 762X51
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To: Haiku Guy

Yeah, but this delay was eminently preventable by the simplest of steps. Heck, it took me all of 15 seconds to find “stone wool” using google. The Indians’ objections were to asbestos specifically, not to boiler insulation mats in general. Using brick was just pigheadedness on the part of the Russians.


9 posted on 09/21/2012 3:59:51 AM PDT by Little Pig (Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.)
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To: ryan71

India has to decide whether they are SERIOUS about beefing up their military, or would rather ‘save the world’.


10 posted on 09/21/2012 4:00:08 AM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: ryan71

I seriously doubt that the U.S. used asbestos on the larger boiler-fired amphibious ships or on our carriers, and none of them seem to suffer from boiler melt-down. Why didn’t India tell the Russians to use what we use? I can’t imagine it’s any sort of deep, dark military secret.


11 posted on 09/21/2012 4:06:49 AM PDT by Delhi Rebels (There was a row in Silver Street - the regiments was out.)
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To: 762X51

The problem with dealing with the Russians, aside from quality and schedule, is that they are always renegotiating terms, and try to bleed the customer for more and more. You always wind up paying a lot more than you originally agreed to. They are shifty, in other words.


12 posted on 09/21/2012 4:14:55 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (AGWT is neo-lysenkoism.)
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To: Delhi Rebels
"Why didn’t India tell the Russians to use what we use?"

Probably did. Third World govt. contracting requires one to navigate through an arcane labyrinthine system of meaningless rules, regulations, corrupt kleptocrats, and contractors who simply don't understand that a bill of materials, and deliverables schedule means exactly what it says. Dealt with it all over the world myself. The stories would make a terrific comedy movie.
13 posted on 09/21/2012 4:22:57 AM PDT by PowderMonkey (WILL WORK FOR AMMO)
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To: ryan71

At least the screws didn’t fall of.


14 posted on 09/21/2012 4:25:16 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

LOL! “Joo ‘vanted screws? Cost extra.”


15 posted on 09/21/2012 4:30:51 AM PDT by PowderMonkey (WILL WORK FOR AMMO)
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To: Delhi Rebels

I’ll bet dollars to donuts that the early Nimitz class all used asbestos. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asbestos, properly handled. In the ship building crash during World War II, when standards were looser, a lot of asbestos was blown in without proper safeguards for workers and handlers.

Once asbestos is installed, it’s harmless. The danger from asbestos is inhalation of airborne fibers. It’s only as an aerosol that asbestos poses any danger. The entire “asbestos remediation” project was a farce, the best thing you can do with installed asbestos is leave it alone. They used to put tiny jars of asbestos in Gilbert chemistry sets.

It’s another example of the triumph of hysteria over facts.


16 posted on 09/21/2012 4:45:13 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (AGWT is neo-lysenkoism.)
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To: ryan71

What does India need with an aircraft carrier?


17 posted on 09/21/2012 4:48:12 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: Haiku Guy

“Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!”

I just educated myself on “Indigo Montoya”. What a fantastic story!!!!!


18 posted on 09/21/2012 4:49:23 AM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: fortheDeclaration

They expect to mix it up with the ChiComs.


19 posted on 09/21/2012 4:50:50 AM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

Well-— hysterics and law suits.

Remember when many house were covered with asbestos shingles? Many of them still are, and the shingles covered over with plastic siding now because it costs a fortune to get rid of the shingles.


20 posted on 09/21/2012 4:55:40 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: 762X51
When you shop at Crazy Ivan’s Discount Army & Navy Store, you’d better get a written warranty

LOL!

21 posted on 09/21/2012 4:56:41 AM PDT by Lou L (Health "insurance" is NOT the same as health "care")
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To: PowderMonkey
LOL! “Joo ‘vanted screws? Cost extra.”

"The lack of screws makes this fine ship much more streamlined through the water, don't you think comrade?"

22 posted on 09/21/2012 4:58:45 AM PDT by Lou L (Health "insurance" is NOT the same as health "care")
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To: Venturer

Claims made by the plaintiff bar often bear little resemblance to facts.


23 posted on 09/21/2012 4:58:51 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (AGWT is neo-lysenkoism.)
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To: Lou L; 762X51

You better have a written warranty and mechanism for enforcement. What, you gonna send Crazy Squaw Liz Warren to sue ‘em?


24 posted on 09/21/2012 5:02:38 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (AGWT is neo-lysenkoism.)
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To: Haiku Guy

having served on board the Kennedy and one other carrier, I couldn’t agree more.


25 posted on 09/21/2012 5:04:35 AM PDT by brivette
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

Not that I’m a naval systems mechanic but the Nimitz is a nuke boat why would she need Asbestos to protect the interior of her reactors?They operate on a totally different principle.


26 posted on 09/21/2012 5:05:15 AM PDT by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: ryan71

Can you imagine the disaster that will befall a nation when WWIII begins and they have to abide by environmental and green regulations in building a war machine?


27 posted on 09/21/2012 5:05:28 AM PDT by Rebelbase (The most transparent administration ever is clear as mud.)
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To: ryan71

Indians refused to allow the Russians to use asbestos to insulate the steam boilers. Instead the Russians had to use vodka in their workers.


28 posted on 09/21/2012 5:08:19 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

You can argue the safety of asbestos till the cows come home and that doesn’t change the fact that not only did the Navy drop its use but it obviously replaced it with something suitable that isn’t causing any problems with overheating the boilers. I’m just surprised that India and Russia didn’t use whatever the U.S. is using. Unless, of course, the Russian excuse is all BS and the engineering failure is due to sloppy workmanship or poor design. And I’m not willing to discard that possibility either.


29 posted on 09/21/2012 5:08:53 AM PDT by Delhi Rebels (There was a row in Silver Street - the regiments was out.)
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To: puppypusher
Not that I’m a naval systems mechanic but the Nimitz is a nuke boat why would she need Asbestos to protect the interior of her reactors?They operate on a totally different principle.

They still use boilers. The difference between nuclear carriers and conventionally powered carriers is that nukes use the reactor to create the heat to generate steam in the boilers and conventional carriers use oil.

30 posted on 09/21/2012 5:11:19 AM PDT by Delhi Rebels (There was a row in Silver Street - the regiments was out.)
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To: Delhi Rebels

I agree, but the decision to abandon asbestos it was *not* based on engineering or safety concerns. It’s an old story by now, but the World Trade Center used asbestos up to the 66th story, at which time “safety” (read fear of the plaintiff bar) made them switch to a less effective alternative. This at least contributed to and hastened the structural failure of the upper stories.


31 posted on 09/21/2012 5:13:07 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (AGWT is neo-lysenkoism.)
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To: Delhi Rebels
Unless, of course, the Russian excuse is all BS and the engineering failure is due to sloppy workmanship or poor design. And I’m not willing to discard that possibility either.

Back in the day when the Soviet Union had a couple of submarine incidents, some comic strip ran a cartoon titled "Soviet Submarine Race" with all of the contestants diving straight down to the bottom.
32 posted on 09/21/2012 5:15:14 AM PDT by DaveInDallas
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To: puppypusher
Not that I’m a naval systems mechanic but the Nimitz is a nuke boat why would she need Asbestos to protect the interior of her reactors?They operate on a totally different principle.

The reactors are used to make superheated steam just like the oil powered ships.

How did you think the reactors turned the propellers?

33 posted on 09/21/2012 5:19:41 AM PDT by CPOSharky (zero slogan: Expect less, pay more. (apologies to Target))
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To: CPOSharky

I know that the reactors are used to boil water to create steam to turn the screws and power the catapult system.But that’s still different than a regular oil fired boiler system that requires insulation on the inside to keep it from melting.

The steam is created indirectly by the reactors so the temperature of the water is not great enough to melt the steam system even when it is pressurized.


34 posted on 09/21/2012 5:31:05 AM PDT by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

What does India need with an aircraft carrier?


I guess India will feed its starving people with it....


35 posted on 09/21/2012 5:39:21 AM PDT by SeminoleCounty (Blaming Terry Jones for the recent Muslim riots is like blaming the St Louis Rams for football)
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To: fso301
At least the screws didn’t fall of.

It appears, however, that your second "f" did.

36 posted on 09/21/2012 6:09:05 AM PDT by ASA Vet (Natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. De Vattel)
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To: ASA Vet
It appears, however, that your second "f" did.

LOL!

37 posted on 09/21/2012 6:11:42 AM PDT by fso301
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To: ryan71
I received a postcard in the mail from some unknown company offering me extended warranty coverage on my 2006 Ford for a low price.

Maybe I should forward the post card to the Indian Navy. Maybe they cover engine boiler repairs on a cobbled up ex Russian ship?

38 posted on 09/21/2012 6:16:42 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (Encourage all of your Democrat friends to get out and vote on November 7th, the stakes are high.)
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To: puppypusher

A nuclear reactor is just another kind of boiler, with admittedly a few extra quirks of its own. It generates steam for turbines too, although there is no place in a nuke that gets as hot as an open flame (except for Chernobyl, that is).

So it’s still important to insulate a reactor and its steam lines, especially one used in a confined space like a ship or a sub.


39 posted on 09/21/2012 6:55:22 AM PDT by Erasmus (Zwischen des Teufels und des tiefen, blauen Meers)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

I’m not sure if that’s totally correct. I don’t know whether or not they stopped sing asbestos above the 66th floor, as you say, but the engineering studies done about the collapse of the Towers suggest it wouldn’t have made a difference. The insulation, of whatever material, is sprayed on the beams. The violence of the explosions when the planes hit literally blew the insulation off the steel..they were bare, and that’s what caused the building to collapse.


40 posted on 09/21/2012 7:03:09 AM PDT by ken5050
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To: puppypusher
On the Russian boat it was used to insulate the boilers, to keep the steam hot and the ship a bit cooler. Nuclear reactors have boilers, too. I have no idea how they insulated, though I did spend waste two weeks in the Newport News ship building facility. (Representing the sensors IPT. Long story.)
41 posted on 09/21/2012 7:09:15 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (AGWT is neo-lysenkoism.)
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To: BobL
Global Firepower

India is currently 4th, below USA, Russia, China. What are your proposals how India can improve that positioning?

42 posted on 09/21/2012 9:52:52 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

I agree asbestos is great stuff.
When we had to take it out of gaskets and brake linings it was a bad deal both cost and performance wise.

I heard from an old brake engineer that it was only smokers who died from asbestosis, that the combination of smoking and asbestos fibers was a huge negative synergy.


43 posted on 09/21/2012 9:59:48 AM PDT by nascarnation (Defeat Baraq 2012. Deport Baraq 2013)
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To: Oztrich Boy

“What are your proposals how India can improve that positioning?”

For starters, TRUST THE PEOPLE THAT BUILT THE BOAT. We may not like Putin because he puts his country first and throws gays in jail, but their engineers are among the best in the world, and if they say to keep asbestos in certain applications, then BELIEVE THEM.

How’s that?


44 posted on 09/21/2012 8:35:50 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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