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China Launches Carrier, but Experts Doubt Its Worth
NEW YORK TIMES ^ | September 25, 2012 | By JANE PERLEZ

Posted on 09/25/2012 10:25:51 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee

BEIJING — In a ceremony attended by the country’s top leaders, China put its first aircraft carrier into service on Tuesday, a move intended to signal its growing military might as tensions escalate between Beijing and its neighbors over islands in nearby seas.

--------------------------------snip-----------------------

The mark “16” on the carrier’s side indicates that it is limited to training, Chinese and other military experts said. China does not have planes capable of landing on the carrier and so far training for such landings has been carried out on land, they said. . .

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: armsbuildup; china; chinesemilitary; redchina
One expert if the carrier is used against weaker neighbors it will be a "sign of bullying." If the ship is deployed against a modern navy it won't survive.
1 posted on 09/25/2012 10:25:55 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee
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To: Brad from Tennessee

This thing isn’t even a match for Japan’s “Hyuga”. That said, that isn’t it’s purpose.

China is 80-yrs behind the US in Carrier Ops, and if they are going to try it, they have to start somewhere. Even the U.S. had the Langley. Russian carrier experience probably isn’t the best of examples to learn from, so they have to start from scratch.

They have a lot to learn.


2 posted on 09/25/2012 10:34:26 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Election 2012: THE RAPTURE OF THE DEMOCRATS)
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To: tcrlaf; Brad from Tennessee
If the Chinese have proved anything in the last 30 years it is that they have an extraordinary ability to accelerate the learning curve.

As the age of the carrier draws to a close, its utility will be more more limited to applications of power against second-rate military powers. The real aircraft carrier will be a satellite in space. Hopefully, by the time the Chinese catch up with ocean going carriers we will have a new administration in place who extends the arms race into space.


3 posted on 09/25/2012 11:03:18 PM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: tcrlaf
I read that when the U.S. Navy began replacing their propeller carrier planes with jets there was a horrendous loss of pilots and planes over a four or five year period.

The ChiComs are starting from scratch. I guess there are some advantages of government controlled news media.

4 posted on 09/25/2012 11:04:24 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: Brad from Tennessee

When the Chinese are not using this new carrier to train their
pilots to crash into it’s fantail, big U.S. retailers can rent
it out for use as a huge container ship to bring in more
junky ChiCom crap.

The ChiCom’s should have named it the “Bentonville”. That’s where the money came from to build it.


5 posted on 09/25/2012 11:14:49 PM PDT by NeverForgetBataan (I am become Barry... destroyer of wealth)
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To: NeverForgetBataan

“The ChiCom’s should have named it the “Bentonville”. That’s where the money came from to build it.”

Or the “Dayton-Hudson”. Or the “Fry’s”. Or the “Dollar General”.

It’s a whole lot more than just Wally responsible for this.


6 posted on 09/25/2012 11:19:29 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Election 2012: THE RAPTURE OF THE DEMOCRATS)
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To: nathanbedford

China finds itself in the exact opposite position from the Russians. The Russians only had to interdict, not control our sea lanes, to win the war at sea.

To feed the Economy, China has to CONTROL the sea lanes to their resources. We only have to interdict that.

The Chinese have to make the leap from Interdiction, to control.

That is a VERY big chasm for them to get over.


7 posted on 09/25/2012 11:23:10 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Election 2012: THE RAPTURE OF THE DEMOCRATS)
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To: tcrlaf
Admiral Mahan redux.

Good point but are these old equations as applicable to the atomic age?

Besides, it is not clear that the best way to control chokepoints and sea lanes will be with carriers rather than satellites.


8 posted on 09/25/2012 11:31:15 PM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Brad from Tennessee
The mark “16” on the carrier’s side indicates that it is limited to training, Chinese and other military experts said.

I wouldn't bet on that being more than idle speculation.

Equally likely being named after Liaoning province suggests it's considered a major warship. (Destroyers and below only get city names)

9 posted on 09/26/2012 12:11:33 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: nathanbedford
[As the age of the carrier draws to a close, its utility will be more and more limited to applications of power against second-rate military powers.]

Though flying close air support and bombing Third World bridges wasn't the grand vision for these “floating cities” it was those missions that have kept these ships relevant. The WWII gun cruisers were so effective in Vietnam they burned out their barrels firing round the clock.

10 posted on 09/26/2012 12:15:50 AM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: nathanbedford

One word: “Skynet”.


11 posted on 09/26/2012 12:18:33 AM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: Born to Conserve

They can use it to launch drones, helicopters, Vistol planes, as well as launch an attack—they can’t land on the thing yet, but they could do an attack on someone—like Taiwan, or those Japanese islands, or the navy of the Philippines. They would have to land back in China or make it a one way trip—like we did off the Hornet in the Tokyo Raid in 1942. It has value—even if its only propaganda.


12 posted on 09/26/2012 12:27:42 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: nathanbedford
Hopefully, by the time the Chinese catch up with ocean going carriers we will have a new administration in place who extends the arms race into space.

I thought we had one, from 1980-1988. Whatever happened to Star Wars?

13 posted on 09/26/2012 12:57:41 AM PDT by Lexinom
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To: nathanbedford
Whoa there Cowboy! The purpose of NASA is to make mohammadens feel good about their accomplishments to modern science ( Ha, Ha, I'm killin' me here).

Isn't it much better to ride to the space station in the back of a Russian vehicle? Much cheaper.

14 posted on 09/26/2012 1:00:27 AM PDT by Eagles6 (DNC 2012 Convention: Celebrating infanticide and sodomy. Denying God.What could possibly go wrong?)
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To: Eagles6

lol


15 posted on 09/26/2012 1:25:55 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Brad from Tennessee
OMG

Gay Ass Look


16 posted on 09/26/2012 1:42:08 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: nathanbedford
If the Chinese have proved anything in the last 30 years it is that they have an extraordinary ability to accelerate the learning curve.

I have to agree. Working both in competition against them, and also with them (vendors), in an industry decimated by Chinese competition, I have learned that the Chinese are NOT to be underestimated. They are not superhumans, but they are smart, hard workers, and very motivated. They can even do remarkably good quality control under the right direction / circumstances, though this is not presently the norm, of course. The most likely things that might keep them from surpassing us are: Social issues / economic mismanagement (too big an elephant to ride?), corruption, resource starvation, and too much mercury and other pollution in their environment. (Medical and clean-up cost issues.)

As the age of the carrier draws to a close, its utility will be more more limited to applications of power against second-rate military powers. The real aircraft carrier will be a satellite in space. Hopefully, by the time the Chinese catch up with ocean going carriers we will have a new administration in place who extends the arms race into space.

We actually have most of the technology needed for this:

For perspective, non-B5 fans, that baby is a mile long... It's not practical yet, but as a fellow engineer once told me "Anything can be done for enough money." (Sell California, maybe?) [/sarc]

17 posted on 09/26/2012 2:07:14 AM PDT by Paul R. (We are in a break in an Ice Age. A brief break at that...)
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To: Paul R.
This is not quite so ambitious (just sell Illinois?):

Check out the specs...

http://roleplaying.diraven.net/babylon5/equipment/god_satellite.html

18 posted on 09/26/2012 2:27:52 AM PDT by Paul R. (We are in a break in an Ice Age. A brief break at that...)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade
They can use it to launch drones, helicopters, Vistol planes, as well as launch an attack—they can’t land on the thing yet

It's got arrestor wires now.


19 posted on 09/26/2012 2:50:22 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: Oztrich Boy

20 posted on 09/26/2012 2:54:04 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: nathanbedford

There will still be a need for carriers - lift into space is still too expensive. But they will be carrying UAVs.

http://lexleader.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/DSCF7288.jpg

Huge pic warning.


21 posted on 09/26/2012 2:54:11 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Jeff Head

PLAN (((((PING)))))


22 posted on 09/26/2012 3:12:27 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Brad from Tennessee
“The fact is the aircraft carrier is useless for the Chinese Navy,” You Ji, a visiting senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, said in an interview.

Underestimate the Chinese at our own peril. This re-furbished carrier, which was purchased under false pretenses by a front company, now gives the Red Chinese a couple of acres of sovereign territory anywhere on the world's oceans.

Moreover, it's not designed to go head-to-head with the U.S. 7th Fleet...the Chinese have nice quiet diesel subs to take out our ships....

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

23 posted on 09/26/2012 3:21:03 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Timber Rattler

Anyone ever wonder why the price of scrap metal has been soooooo high recently? Wanna guess where that scrap metal is going? Sure isn’t into making bridges here in the U.S.


24 posted on 09/26/2012 4:08:19 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: Timber Rattler

Anyone ever wonder why the price of scrap metal has been soooooo high recently? Wanna guess where that scrap metal is going? Sure isn’t into making bridges here in the U.S.


25 posted on 09/26/2012 4:13:01 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: nathanbedford
Besides, it is not clear that the best way to control chokepoints and sea lanes will be with carriers rather than satellites.

Somebody with the ability (and, more importantly, the WILLINGNESS) to engage in unrestricted warfare against any commercial shipping bringing supplies (particularly oil) to China, or bringing export products out, would bring China to their knees within months.

26 posted on 09/26/2012 4:13:11 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Charlie Daniels - Payback Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWwTJj_nosI)
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To: Brad from Tennessee

The ship is labeled 16, for training. The learning curve for carrier operations is pretty steep. The ship in question was bought and put in service to learn hands on about carrier design and operations.

Merely by reading it can be learned that the Japanese who launched several highly successful strikes were done in by poor carrier design and operational procedures at Midway. That happened even though they had the most experienced carrier operations officers and pilots and best planes in the world.

The battle was lost to inexperienced American pilots largely because of poor operational procedures and vessel design.

Prudence dictates hands on practice to learn the trade


27 posted on 09/26/2012 4:23:04 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Present failure and impending death yield irrational action))
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To: nathanbedford
If the Chinese have proved anything in the last 30 years it is that they have an extraordinary ability to accelerate the learning curve. plagiarize.

There, all fixed.p> Agreed on your second point, though.

Cheers!

28 posted on 09/26/2012 4:23:04 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: nathanbedford
If the Chinese have proved anything in the last 30 years it is that they have an extraordinary ability to accelerate the learning curve. plagiarize.

There, all fixed.

Agreed on your second point, though.

Cheers!

29 posted on 09/26/2012 4:23:18 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

I actually think we may want to create a number of ‘drone’ carriers that are small, destroyer sized flat decked with missle compartments and small landing decks for large drones that can carry missle payloads - increase delivery vectors, spread out the risk, overload the defenses. Maybe even some disposable sub versions with vtol capability. Still keep the manned carriers but only 8 - 4 pac/3 lant-med/1 io-me on slower roation with 1 pac/1 lant in dock...in the meantime 6 destroyer sized drone carriers/ocean moving - always moving....


30 posted on 09/26/2012 5:18:36 AM PDT by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: Paul R.

Personally, I think we need to start building Star Destroyers (Death Stars can wait a little longer.)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081117221725/starwars/images/d/de/VSD_egvv.jpg


31 posted on 09/26/2012 6:01:35 AM PDT by JRios1968 (I'm guttery and trashy, with a hint of lemon. - Laz)
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To: NeverForgetBataan

>>The ChiCom’s should have named it the “Bentonville”.

Or the “Crinton” — named after the best president the ChiComs ever had.

Surprised they didn’t build the thing in Long Beach.


32 posted on 09/26/2012 7:37:17 AM PDT by TArcher
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To: reed13k

We should take some old Destroyers we have and convert them into Drone Carriers. Maybe use wooden decks? The conversions shouldn’t be too hard or expensive—It would use this new weapon well and add to our naval power.


33 posted on 09/26/2012 8:26:35 AM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: bert
The ship is labeled 16, for training.

No evidence that that is the case. While it will obviously be engaged in training, it's got too extensive a radar and weapons fit to be just a training carrier.

34 posted on 09/26/2012 8:55:19 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: Oztrich Boy

-——The mark “16” on the carrier’s side indicates that it is limited to training, Chinese -——

That’s what the article said. I merely reported what I read.

All the stuff you noted is worthless if the crew is not able to make it work within the battle group. Before becoming a threat, they must first learn what they can and cannot do


35 posted on 09/26/2012 10:46:35 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Present failure and impending death yield irrational action))
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To: bert
That’s what the article said. I merely reported what I read.

Yeah. They were wild mass guessing.

36 posted on 09/26/2012 11:26:14 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: Oztrich Boy; bert; Timber Rattler

The training numbers are in the 80s. The next training vessel would have been 83.

They used 16 and 16 is a number for a full combatant.

This carrier is fangless right now because their new J-15 strike aircraft are not availabe in enough numbers ot outfit an airwing. but in 18-24 months they will have enough aircraft, and two years after that, after they perform intinsive air ops training, they will be.

They alreayd have very strong surface combatants...new, modern, AEGIS-Like destroyers and very high quality, modern muli-mission guided missile firgates to escort this carrier.

So, outside the US, they will field the momst potent group in the Western Pacific.

It has Japan, India, and Australia all worried enough to be building carriers of their won and the high end escorts to accompany them.

The Rising Sea Dragon in Asia
http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/

The Chinese Carrier, CV-16, Liao Ning
http://www.jeffhead.com/worldwideaircraftcarriers/varyag.htm

PLAN’s Lanzhou Class AEGIS-Like DDG
http://www.jeffhead.com/aegisvesselsoftheworld/lanzhou.htm


37 posted on 09/26/2012 1:36:35 PM PDT by Jeff Head ( Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head
The training numbers are in the 80s. The next training vessel would have been 83.

Good point. The claim that all two digit numbers were training ships looked a bit suss to me.

The reason for choosing a two digit number over three for a carrier (apart from simplicity) may be as simple as two digits meant they could paint a bigger flight deck number and do it without intersecting the aircraft launch track lines.


38 posted on 09/26/2012 7:23:20 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: Oztrich Boy

Torpedo and Cruise Missile bait.


39 posted on 09/26/2012 8:19:38 PM PDT by wetgundog (" Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is no Vice")
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To: Oztrich Boy
On October 6, 2012, I will be a guest on WVOX Radio, 1460 AM, on the talk show, "And Nothing but the Truth," at 10:10 AM Eastern Time.


The New Chinese carrier, CV-16, Liao Ning

The topic will be the new Chinese Aircraft Carrier, CV-16, Liao Ning specifically, its capabilities, and what it means in the Western Pacific, and the rapid growth of the Chinese Navy in general.

The program will be live, and will also be streamed to the internet. I am not sure if this program, "And Nothing but the Truth," (http://www.andnothingbutthetruth.com/) I am not sure if the show is syndicated or not and playing on other stations around the country. I believe there will be call ins to the show, so listen for the call in number during the interview, call in, and I will be happy to talk to you and answer questions.

The Host is Frank V. Vernuccio, Jr., who is the Editor of the New York Analysis of Policy and Government (http://usagovpolicy.com/) which looks at governmental policies and their impact at the local, state, and national level. He was a candidate for the Ney York State Senate in 2010. In that campaign, which he lost, his positions were published as follows:

Anyone wanting to listen can tune in to WVOX 1460 AM in New York City, or listen live online:

http://tunein.com/radio/WVOX-1460-s23608/

Hope you get to listen, and hope you get a chance to call in!

40 posted on 09/27/2012 10:05:17 AM PDT by Jeff Head ( Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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