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UK: Homeowners win right to use lethal force on burglars
Daily Mail ^ | 9th October 2012 | James Slack And James Chapman

Posted on 10/08/2012 7:16:59 PM PDT by the scotsman

'The long campaign to give householders the right to use maximum force against burglars will end in victory today.

Chris Grayling will announce he is changing the law to allow people to use ‘disproportionate’ levels of violence to protect themselves and their families.

The Justice Secretary said it would ‘dispel doubts once and for all’ over the right to fight back against intruders.

The new rules could, in some cases, allow for lethal force.

The move is designed to remove the threat of a burglary victim being arrested – let alone charged – if they use violence to drive the intruder away or stop them from advancing through their home.

Currently, householders are entitled to use only ‘reasonable’ force.

The change satisfies the demands of MPs and campaigners since Norfolk farmer Tony Martin was jailed for shooting dead a burglar in 1999.

The call for action gathered momentum after the murder of financier John Monckton, who died from stab wounds in his Chelsea home in 2004.

Last month a judge warned that burglars who break into country homes can expect to be shot at by their victims if they are licensed gun holders.

There have been a string of changes to the law in recent years – including one made by Kenneth Clarke last year.

But ministers have always stopped short of delivering on the right to use ‘disproportionate force’.'

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: banglist

1 posted on 10/08/2012 7:17:03 PM PDT by the scotsman
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To: the scotsman

Does this mean that Brits can use “excessive” force to save their country from the ongoing Islamic burglary?


2 posted on 10/08/2012 7:19:56 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: the scotsman

The idea that they had to win the right to protect themselves using “disproportionate force” is a disgrace.


3 posted on 10/08/2012 7:20:13 PM PDT by Personal Responsibility (The Left blaming Jim Lehrer for the debate is like blaming Lincoln's assassination on the play.)
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To: the scotsman

Congrats!! and keep it up. It’s great to see your country turning the corner from its experiment with coddling criminals. We’re pretty far along there, but still have pockets where you just don’t to go if you’re the wrong color (or even the right color, for that matter).


4 posted on 10/08/2012 7:20:53 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: the scotsman

Finally, the people in the UK are granted the Castle doctrine of sorts, it’s about darn time. More power to them!


5 posted on 10/08/2012 7:30:07 PM PDT by eagles_rest ("The time is near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves." -G.W)
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To: Paladin2

nice!


6 posted on 10/08/2012 7:32:02 PM PDT by jjw
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To: Personal Responsibility

“The idea that they had to win the right to protect themselves using “disproportionate force” is a disgrace.”

No, it’s a HUGE VICTORY. The clowns who were running things, for decades, from all political parties, just got their heads handed to them. People are FINALLY fed up to the point that they’re through having sympathy for criminals. I knew one in the 1970s that was on a jury (in the states...had been naturalized). She just had to give the poor many another chance. Sure he did it...but putting him in jail just wasn’t fair...to her.

It has been a long time, a very long time, but people in Europe are starting to wake up to some very, very, real threats. Expect to see things pick up quickly, even by reading the article, you can tell this is just the beginning of lots of good things to come.


7 posted on 10/08/2012 7:33:44 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: the scotsman

If this is the case, then everyone convicted for using force to defend their homes should immediately be pardoned. Also any information acquired from home invaders to prosecute home owners should be used to prosecute the home invaders to the full extent of the law.


8 posted on 10/08/2012 7:34:46 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: the scotsman

Glad the legislators had a common sense ephiphany. Now, perhaps they will move along toward their own version of our 2A.

They will need it when it’s time to uninvite the tribe of mohammed, pee(ce) be upon him.


9 posted on 10/08/2012 7:41:28 PM PDT by Molon Labbie (Prep. Now. Live Healthy, take your Shooting Iron daily.)
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To: the scotsman

Does this grant a right to self protection, or only a gray area where self defense may be allowed?


10 posted on 10/08/2012 7:42:29 PM PDT by tbw2
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To: BobL

You’re right, of course. The point is they never should have had to fight to win that “right” in the first place.


11 posted on 10/08/2012 7:43:20 PM PDT by Personal Responsibility (The Left blaming Jim Lehrer for the debate is like blaming Lincoln's assassination on the play.)
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To: Personal Responsibility

Freedom is seldom free.


12 posted on 10/08/2012 7:52:36 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: the scotsman

“Reasonable” can mean anything, it is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact.


13 posted on 10/08/2012 8:02:31 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: the scotsman

Some people don’t understand what rights are.


14 posted on 10/08/2012 8:11:18 PM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: the scotsman

A step in the right direction.

I wonder, will it all be repealed as soon as a teenaged thug who happens to be the kid of “someone important” takes a bullet when out for a little bit of B&E.


15 posted on 10/08/2012 8:19:27 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (With (R)epublicans like these, who needs (D)emocrats?)
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To: the scotsman

The only reason this happened was because an important financier was stabbed. Once the upper class is threatened then self defense will be important. Same thing will happen here when a Kennedy or Clinton or any well connected liberal democrat is killed by a jihadist via open border policies. The illegals, the muzzies and the “Amish” will feel the law enforcement boot on their necks.


16 posted on 10/08/2012 8:39:23 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: the scotsman

Can you get a permit to buy/own anything but a double barreled or single shot shotgun?

Can you get a permit living outside of a rural area?

What are the criteria for getting a permit?


17 posted on 10/08/2012 8:58:34 PM PDT by expat1000
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To: the scotsman
LOL. In the UK, the subjects have to wait with bated breath to see if the almighty state will grant them the privilege of defending themselves with deadly force.

Hey, it's better than nothing.

Sorry, I don't mean to antagonize citizens of the UK: just their government.

But it continues to astound me how incomplete non-Americans' concept of Freedom can be. Not that we have it perfect here, there's plenty of Tyranny floating around.

But at least Americans can point to it on paper and try to maximize it in practice.

18 posted on 10/08/2012 9:27:09 PM PDT by sargon
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To: Personal Responsibility

The RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE is granted by GOD, not government!


19 posted on 10/08/2012 11:27:54 PM PDT by 5th MEB (Progressives in the open; --- FIRE FOR EFFECT!!)
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To: sargon
In the UK, the subjects have to wait with bated breath to see if the almighty state will grant them the privilege of defending themselves with deadly force.

Not quite. The right has always existed in common law, and has been exercised by many over the centuries without prosecution, including recent times. What is being proposed clarifies what are believed by many to be unhelpful ambiguities in the statute law, which have led to some well-publicised hard cases in recent years. Had the facts of some of those cases (such as the notorious Tony Martin case) been replicated, I'm told that the householder would have been in serious trouble in more than one US state jurisdiction.

20 posted on 10/09/2012 1:29:04 AM PDT by Winniesboy
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To: the scotsman
Only force which is ‘grossly’ disproportionate will not be permitted.
Well there's a nice loophole in the new law. All they have to start doing is calling any act of self-defense "grossly disproportionate"... and they get to go back to locking up the home-owners.
21 posted on 10/09/2012 1:33:16 AM PDT by samtheman (Obama. Mugabe. Chavez. (Obamugavez))
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To: expat1000

You can get a permit to own a rifle, but it is much harder. In the case of a shotgun license, the police have to give a good reason why they shouldn’t grant one, in the case of a rifle, the would-be owner has to demonstrate why they should have one, so the burden of justification is shifted from the police to the owner...


22 posted on 10/09/2012 2:44:33 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: the scotsman
UK: Homeowners win right to use lethal force on burglars

Incorrect.

The British ALWAYS HAD the right to use lethal force on burglars.

This article merely reports that the authorities will no longer violate that right.

23 posted on 10/09/2012 2:47:23 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
You can get a permit to own a rifle, but it is much harder. In the case of a shotgun license, the police have to give a good reason why they shouldn’t grant one, in the case of a rifle, the would-be owner has to demonstrate why they should have one, so the burden of justification is shifted from the police to the owner...

Maybe it's a bit better than I thought if that goes for urban areas as well. Can you buy a pump shotgun? Can you keep the shotgun loaded? (In Canada they will charge you with improper storage - at least it used be that way). Do you know if you can you buy 00 shotshells and shotgun slugs and also can you buy ammo without a permit?

24 posted on 10/09/2012 3:12:11 AM PDT by expat1000
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To: Personal Responsibility

As Winnie has pointed out, we have always had that right, all this is doing is strengthening and clarifying the law, which has been interpreted differently by different judges and police forces and the CPS.


25 posted on 10/09/2012 3:27:41 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: Personal Responsibility

The headline(s) are misleading.

We have always had the right to defend ourselves and even to kill an intruder if there’s been no alternative, what this law will do is strengthen and clarify the law. The laws have been wrongly played about with and have been subject to the interpretation of different judges and police forces.

So this dosent GIVE us any rights we didnt already have, it just strengthens and clarifies them.


26 posted on 10/09/2012 3:43:59 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: tbw2

The former.

The headlines are actually somewhat misleading.

We have always had the right to kill an intruder if there’s been no alternative, what this law will do is strengthen and clarify the law. The laws have been wrongly played about with and have been subject to the interpretation of different judges and police forces.

So this dosent GIVE us any rights we didnt already have, it just strengthens and clarifies them.


27 posted on 10/09/2012 3:45:23 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

True.

There was a case where a family chased a burglar for a mile, held him down and ran over him. That wasnt deemed reasonable force. And I suppose if I had a burglar under control, then preceded to pick up a lamp and bash his brains in and almost kill him, then that wouldnt be reasonable either.

The cases where UK householders have been prosecuted has actually been tiny. Tiny. Despite the belief on here.


28 posted on 10/09/2012 3:48:23 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: sargon

Yes, we are citizens, not subjects.


29 posted on 10/09/2012 3:49:01 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman
I'm 70, not very healthy, on oxygen supplement 24/7. Most of the day I'm alone, far beyond the normal patrol areas of the sheriff's department.

No viable self defense option exists for me but ready access to a gun. In the U.K. I would have no options at all.

As for having a burglar "under control", no way, he will go back out of my door feet first and belly up.

30 posted on 10/09/2012 3:59:16 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
Time for the UK to call on the NRA to get guns back into the hands of the Brits. I suppose those in peril could use a bedpan or a coffee maker to hit a burglar with but IMO, a gun would be much more effective and a permanent determent.
31 posted on 10/09/2012 4:14:21 AM PDT by DaveA37
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To: 5th MEB

This case was in the UK, not here. I do not think they recognize the same God given rights we do.


32 posted on 10/09/2012 4:58:14 AM PDT by Personal Responsibility (The Left blaming Jim Lehrer for the debate is like blaming Lincoln's assassination on the play.)
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To: the scotsman
Let's give credit where credit is due. This happened because there were still more than enough British with backbone to stand up to the monstrous national socialist @$%#'s and tell them to PO, and they weren't going to stand around idly while savages ransacked their homes and ravaged their loved ones.

Great job, Brits, and we know there's more to come!

33 posted on 10/09/2012 5:36:59 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: expat1000

There is nothing to stop you buying a gun in an urban area. You must have a gun safe though and they may refuse you a permit if they think that there is high chance it might be stolen, so ironically, its more difficult to own a gun if you live in a high crime area. If you want to own a gun, especially a rifle, you’d better first secure your house before applying for a license, especially if you live in a rough area.

Pump shotguns require a firearms certificate, which has a higher standard than a shotgun certificate, and unlike a shotgun certificate, you have to justify why you should have it rather than the police justifying why you should not have it. certain types of shogun ammo, including slugs, also require a firearms certificate.

You need a relevant license to purchase ammo and you are not allowed to store the gun loaded.

Basically, you are not allowed to keep the gun loaded and ready beside your bed, so if a burglar robbed your house, you would have to grab some shells, make your way to the gun cabinet, unlock it, remove the shotgun, load it, and then hunt down the intruder. Thanks to a recent judges ruling, it is clear you can shoot burglars without fear of prosecution. It wasn’t very clear before.


34 posted on 10/09/2012 6:07:08 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

Thanks, So basically the firearms laws suck.


35 posted on 10/09/2012 6:10:28 AM PDT by expat1000
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To: expat1000

Yeah, pretty much. Although at least we now now we can shoot intruders without fear of prosecution... If we manage to actually get hold of a gun that is...


36 posted on 10/09/2012 6:17:34 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

When I lived in Canada quite a long time ago, laws came into effect that required handguns to be kept unloaded and in a safe, and long guns unloaded but not necessarily in a safe.

Probably now long guns have to be kept in a safe also, but leaving that aside, I always had my Colt 1911 .45 loaded, cocked, locked, and close to hand.

Let the prosecutor prove to a jury (we could choose judge or jury) in Alberta (very pro gun) that I could not have opened the safe, retrieved and loaded the weapon in the timeline of the shooting, should there be one. Good luck with that - that never worried me. Not when there was a case there of a pharmacist shooting a fleeing junkie in the back and the jury called it self defense.

Anyway, having a weapon loaded and not stored legally was then, and I expect in the UK also, a fairly minor infraction. Might be a tradeoff worth considering!


37 posted on 10/09/2012 6:30:50 AM PDT by expat1000
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To: Winniesboy
Had the facts of some of those cases (such as the notorious Tony Martin case) been replicated, I'm told that the householder would have been in serious trouble in more than one US state jurisdiction.

Maybe that would be true in a couple of the most compromised US States, like, say, Massachusetts or New York, where, in addition to other considerations, your gun's "papers" must be in order. In general, no.

38 posted on 10/09/2012 7:55:33 AM PDT by sargon
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To: expat1000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom


39 posted on 10/09/2012 8:14:54 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman
Geez!

I thought all of this was already settled with the Magna Carta!

40 posted on 10/09/2012 8:29:33 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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