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Men jailed after sniper rifle found in back of minicab in South Croydon
Croydon Toda ^ | 9 Oct 2012 | GarethD2011

Posted on 10/09/2012 9:28:15 PM PDT by smokingfrog

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To: Smokin' Joe
What makes a weapon a terrorist weapon is the way it is employed, not the weapon itself.

Precisely!

That they DID get THIS kind of punishment for this kind of WEAPON is unconscionable. And I'd be saying the same thing if their names had been Achmed, Mohammed, and Abdulla.

101 posted on 10/10/2012 7:38:54 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
Anyone laughing at the idea of a .22 sniper rifle....

Nobody is laughing at the .22, itself. But this is the equivalent of a million dollar judgement for spilling hot coffee. (nobody said the lady didn't get a nasty burn)

As for calling it a "sniper rifle," only if you don't know what a "sniper" is...

That silenced, scoped, .22s have been deployed as "special purpose" weapons by military, assassination, and police units, backed by heavier weapons is similarly not disputed. That's not what happened here.

A legitimate "sniper" would no more carry this weapon in the field than a soldier would carry a tricked out 10/22 for an assault rifle.

102 posted on 10/10/2012 7:55:22 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: TangoLimaSierra
You know, without the /s tag some folks on this board just won’t get it.

Meekly raising my hand.....

103 posted on 10/10/2012 7:57:20 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: Longtooth
At least we don’t have to lose any sleep about the Brits invading us.

No, all we have to worry about are jackasses on our side of the ocean saying "see, this is reasonable."

104 posted on 10/10/2012 8:00:53 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: Trailerpark Badass
There's a reason the IDF used to use suppressed 10-22's control for crowd/mob control, until human rights groups complained too loudly.

There's also a reason for all those other soldiers backing up the marksman in your picture, as well as the slinged assault rifle on the guy with the 10/22.

As far as I'm concerned, throwing these guys in jail *for these weapons* would be the same as convicting them of terrorism because they bought a copy of "Unintended Consequences."

105 posted on 10/10/2012 8:11:35 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: the scotsman
The article is convicting the guns themselves as the criminal element. You claim the perps have prior convictions for violent crimes.

Which did the prosecution focus more upon? The dinky .22 rimfire, or the perps criminal background?

It sounds to me like they focused on the gun, so as to continue to justify their own draconian gun laws, while publicizing "guns are bad". Well I guess MEAT CLEAVERS are bad too! Do you have one in your kitchen? It's there to do maximum damage to flesh, I'd bet. You might even have a sausage grinder. You are a potential mass murderer!

More soberly;
In the U.S. a convicted felon can go straight to jail for gun possession. A convicted felon out on parole will go straight to jail for gun possession.

But let's not have everyone disarmed, or else we'll all be left as prey to those whom would rob and harm us, armed with meat cleavers... which was one of the perps previous weapons of choice, was it not?

If you are in Scotland, perhaps you could use this incident to talk some sense into the heads of your United Kingdom countrymen.

It's not the blasted .22 that is the problem, any more than a meat cleaver itself was the problem.

it is THE CRIMINAL that IS THE PROBLEM. Could there be any better example? If you cannot see that, go to your kitchen right now, and remove all knives, even the butter knives. Replace them and all the other flatware with the flimsiest plastic eating utensils made. And get rid of all razor blades too, least you or someone else be tempted to use them for a weapon.

Might as well throw out all the iron frying pans, too. Check your closet, there may be a dangerous cricket bat hiding in there. Who knows when it's going to leap out of there and bash some poor slob!

106 posted on 10/10/2012 8:12:52 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: Peet

Wow, who knew I owned so many AK-47s and Glocks ;^)


107 posted on 10/10/2012 8:16:42 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: the scotsman

One more thing. No more golfing. For you, or anyone else in Scotland. I know, the sport pretty much originated there...but those clubs they use... TOO DANGEROUS! Get rid of them immediately. People can get their emotions wound up on the golf course, you know? It’s only a matter of time before Scotland experiences a grievous national tragedy. The game is just too dangerous. It’s the clubs themselves... they can KILL!


108 posted on 10/10/2012 8:17:39 AM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: ctdonath2
I see you have your "sniper rifle" camouflaged for your upcoming rampage at the "Build-A-Bear!" /s

Better lose the hat and get a "Hello Kitty" purse if you really want to fit in....

109 posted on 10/10/2012 8:21:54 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger

A ‘sniper’ according to Websters is “a marksman who shoots at people from a concealed place”

A scoped, silenced .22 calibre rifle is precisely the kind of weapon that would be used by a sniper according to this dictionary definition.


110 posted on 10/10/2012 8:42:33 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

Dictionaries are not known for their martial acumen.


111 posted on 10/10/2012 8:59:34 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
Maybe they have reason to suspect that the rifles (and ammo) were intended for malicious use (such as communications intercepts or other contacts, including possibly informants).

Without that context to show intent, the possession of the rifles and ammo shows only the means to carry out such plans, not actually having a plan to conduct any terrorist act more nefarious than the removal of varmints (the 4-legged variety).

I seriously there is more to this than we are being told.

112 posted on 10/10/2012 9:06:56 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Smokin' Joe
I seriously there is more to this than we are being told.

Joe, I don't doubt that for a minute. But what we ARE being told is nothing short of Orwellian.

113 posted on 10/10/2012 9:15:50 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: buffaloguy

Well, that will teach you to burn Toronto.


114 posted on 10/10/2012 10:21:42 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: papertyger

Indeed, dear friend.

Let’s have some fun together with a story that deserves the ridicule.


115 posted on 10/10/2012 10:26:47 AM PDT by lurk
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To: BlueDragon

I think the long sentences pretty much reflect the fact that the men jailed were career criminals and gang members, one was already out on licence yet went and committed this serious crime. Focusing on the .22 weapon/ammunition misses that these men are serious gang members and multiple offenders/career criminals. And as been pointed out by others, .22 weapons and ammo are not quite as weak as posters are making out.

I have no problem with the sentences. BECAUSE they are for the men’s continued criminal acts, not this single crime. Had the men not been career criminals with criminal records, they I can assure you would never have got anywhere near 16 yrs. Jailed yes, but probably a sentence of a third of what was handed out. Probably 6 rather than 16.


116 posted on 10/10/2012 10:29:30 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: papertyger

They are career criminals and gang members who bought this rifle, as well as hollowpoint ammo. What do you think they bought it for?.

They didnt get 16 yrs for having a .22. They got 16 yrs because they are violent criminals who bought the weapon and ammo clearly to shoot at other gangs, not cute squirrels. They got 16 yrs because this charge was the umpteenth for most of them.

Had they been non-career criminals, the UK sentence would have been much less. Probably a third to a half of what they got.


117 posted on 10/10/2012 10:36:24 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: elcid1970

No, being gang members and career criminals with multiple convictions and serious histories of violence, who buy a rifle, hollowpoint ammo, a silencer and scope gets you 16 yrs. Esp when at least one of them is out on licence for another serious violent crime conviction.

And your EDL point is just stupid beyond belief.


118 posted on 10/10/2012 10:40:50 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: elcid1970

Oh, and 96% of the UK is NOT Muslim.
And 93% is white.
And Mohammed is not the no 1 boys name in the UK.
Nor has the UK been conquered by Islam.

What IS this American obsession with the UK being a dhimmi state?.


119 posted on 10/10/2012 10:45:16 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

You can quibble and cavil to your heart’s content, but that’s NOT what the story says, nor the focus of the government official’s hyperbole.

All indications from both the writer’s posture, and the spokesman’s statements, lead any non-apologist to believe the convicts’ history and character are not an issue.


120 posted on 10/10/2012 11:06:58 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: the scotsman
What IS this American obsession with the UK being a dhimmi state?.

It's not like Europeans have a history of denying problems until they're swallowed by them or anything like that......

Throwing people in jail for what we consider little more than a children's toy is perfectly reasonable. /s

121 posted on 10/10/2012 11:11:50 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: smokingfrog

Bolt action rifle + scope + .22 LR hollow points = sniper rifle? WTF? OK, it is the UK after all. UK reporters know about guns as much as they do about fornicating.


122 posted on 10/10/2012 11:21:57 AM PDT by MasterGunner01
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To: Lazamataz

Read your own post from the other day and practice weapons safety. People are shot and killed every year by people treating the lowly 22 with contempt.


123 posted on 10/10/2012 11:50:45 AM PDT by Domangart
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To: lurk
Let’s have some fun together with a story that deserves the ridicule.

Truly, I wish I could. But what I find more repugnant than this travesty is the fact some are actually trying to *defend* this horrendous injustice.

124 posted on 10/10/2012 11:57:29 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: Domangart
People are shot and killed every year by people treating the lowly 22 with contempt.

People are killed every year by car accidents, but you don't see anyone claiming the victims were run over by a tank.

125 posted on 10/10/2012 12:05:14 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: 1066AD
Don’t think I’ve ever seen HP 22LR.

Really? You must not own a .22 then. Hollow point .22 long rifles are quite common and probably more of them are sold than solids. I am talking about the USA of course and if this is in Britain, where I believe it is, then I think silencers are legal, at least they are in Europe.

126 posted on 10/10/2012 12:06:12 PM PDT by calex59
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To: papertyger

Of course they are.

As first time British offenders, they’d never have come close to 16 years. Probably a third of that at most.

The 15/16 yr sentences are because this is the nth time these men have had criminal (and serious violent ones at that) records. Because they are noted violent and serious criminals, and also gang members.

Like any criminal and criminal system, the more you do it, the heavier the punishment.


127 posted on 10/10/2012 12:23:11 PM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman
Of course they are.

As first time British offenders, they’d never have come close to 16 years. Probably a third of that at most.

The 15/16 yr sentences are because this is the nth time these men have had criminal (and serious violent ones at that) records. Because they are noted violent and serious criminals, and also gang members.

Then why is none of that included in the article? I see nothing but "guns" in the way of relevant details.

128 posted on 10/10/2012 12:34:41 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: the scotsman

Thanks for posting that. I knew there had to be more to the story than the original article told.

Turns out the bobbie’s description of the criminals was good, tho’ the description of the rifle was... not so.


129 posted on 10/10/2012 12:56:47 PM PDT by green iguana
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To: papertyger

“Then why is none of that included in the article?”

Because the article sucks.

See his links in post 80.


130 posted on 10/10/2012 1:03:06 PM PDT by green iguana
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To: the scotsman
committed this serious crime

What "serious crime"?

You think buying a rifle is a serious crime?

Seriously?

You think 6 years in prison is an appropriate penalty for the "serious crime" of buying a rifle?

Seriously?

Underneath all the blather about whether these guys were or were not dirtbags lies the complete disconnect with reality.

A .22LR rifle is NOT a 'sniper rifle'.

A .22LR rifle is the least powerful rifle commonly available anywhere.

The idea that buying a .22LR rifle (or any other rifle) without the government's permission constitutes some sort of heinous crime is insane. Nuts. Whacko. Bonkers. Mad.

You can come on this forum and make apologies for, and try to explain away, the UK's insane and idiotic firearms laws if you like. It's a Free Republic.

But it's increasingly discrediting both you and your country.

131 posted on 10/10/2012 1:07:22 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ctdonath2

Maybe if those criminals had bought a pink and purple rifle,it would not have seemed so evil.


132 posted on 10/10/2012 2:26:33 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: ArrogantBustard

1—Convicted criminals (one on licence) with gang affliations and violent track records buying a rifle, hollowpoint ammo, silencer and a scope is serious.

As you know, its legal to own a rifle in the UK, as long as the rifle and ‘accessories’ arent banned.

The rifle however was an ‘illegally held’ weapon (ie it hadnt been registered and had been smuggled into the UK), hollowpoint ammo is illegal in the UK. Silencers and scopes are of course legal.

The men were convicted on possession of firearms with intent to endanger life and illegal possession of a firearm. They werent up in court for the crime of buying a rifle, as its perfectly legal to own one as long as you adhere to the gun laws.

2—The British gun laws are what they are. You think they are stupid. Many British would say that the easy availabilty of guns in America with little or no checks is equally insane.

3—Nope, try again. I have agreed with many here that many of the 20thC UK gun laws have been ill-advised and some downright wrong. All I do here is to explain the laws (as a Brit and gunowner) and try and correct myths and errors in posts.


133 posted on 10/10/2012 2:42:57 PM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

Anjem Choudary ROCKS! He goes where he pleases & strikes where he pleases.

And disarmed-by-choice Britons have precious little to say in response. On the other hand, Muslims in USA are mostly quiet & keep to themselves. All those bloody infidel Yanks with their guns & their Bibles, you know.

Do Anjem & Rowan meet weekly for tea & crumpets?

;^)


134 posted on 10/10/2012 2:54:55 PM PDT by elcid1970 ("Free speech is more important than Islam.")
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To: the scotsman
1—Convicted criminals (one on licence) with gang affliations and violent track records buying a rifle, hollowpoint ammo, silencer and a scope is serious.

That's as it may be ... but you're on record here as supporting a SIX YEAR prison term for honest folk committing the "serious crime" (your words) of buying a rifle without bothering to ask Her Majesty's permission.

That's beyond insane.

(ie it hadnt been registered

There's part of your problem ... to think that 'registering' a rifle does anybody a shred of good.

hollowpoint ammo is illegal

There's more of your problem ... whatever good does anyone (other than an idiot) think will come of banning the most effective form of self-defense or hunting ammunition? Banning hollow point ammunition is madness and stupidity.

Silencers and scopes are of course legal.

As they bloody well should be. Neither, however, turns a .22LR rifle into a "sniper weapon".

its perfectly legal to own one as long as you adhere to the gun laws.

The same was true in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ...

The British gun laws are what they are.

Yes. They are stupid and insane.

Guess what, sparky? Ours are stupid and insane, too. Just not quite as much so.

All I do here is to explain the laws (as a Brit and gunowner) and

And support punishing gun-owners with six year prison terms for buying a rifle in a private sale.

135 posted on 10/10/2012 2:54:55 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: elcid1970

Yes, he does. Only almost no UK Muslim or anyone else listens to his insane ramblings.


136 posted on 10/10/2012 3:09:03 PM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Thank you


137 posted on 10/10/2012 4:19:20 PM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: papertyger
so you can forgive me my mistake, won’t you?

No problem.

138 posted on 10/10/2012 5:34:47 PM PDT by tpmintx (Problem: The people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who VOTE for a living.)
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To: the scotsman

Perhaps so. I’ve seen vids of willowy Englishwomen in clingy sundresses standing up to him & his burka-clad Muslimahs and there was no violence (British police were off camera & close by).

But when Lord Achmed, MP, speaks, people listen. Like when a female MP proposed airing to her fellow MPs a vid showing the ugly truth about Islam, Lord A. threatened to surround Parliament with 10,000 angry Muslim males. The entire assembly folded like an accordion & cancelled the showing.

Too bad Sir Winston or Dame Margaret weren’t in the drivers seat to call Lord Achmed out & dare him to stage his show of Islamic force. Mr. Choudary must have been laughing his bearded face off.

Just returned from holiday in Ottawa ON. Great time, lovely people, but it’s as close to Europe as I care to get to these days.


139 posted on 10/10/2012 6:22:14 PM PDT by elcid1970 ("Free speech is more important than Islam.")
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To: green iguana
Because the article sucks.

That does nothing to negate the statement of the cop being quoted.

140 posted on 10/10/2012 6:33:58 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: papertyger
Such items are owned solely by those intent on causing serious harm to their planned target or targets...

Yup, I myself been doing serious harm to pieces of paper for years.

141 posted on 10/10/2012 8:19:32 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: Last Dakotan
Yup, I myself been doing serious harm to pieces of paper for years.

Maybe that's why little old men from Florida are taking out armed robbers two at a time, while cops like this Detective Sergeant LacyThong and New York's finest are pissing themselves over squirrel rifles, and shooting up busy pedestrians when squaring off against fashion designers....

142 posted on 10/10/2012 9:35:57 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: PastorBooks

Don’t laugh about getting shot with a 22 round. A friend of mine; I should say ex-friend, did it to me at the kitchen table. We were about 14 years old and had been out hunting rabbits, got back to the house and were cleaning our rifles at the table when he pointed his at me. I told him not to do that; he said it’s not loaded and proceeded to pull the trigger. Trust me, it was loaded and knocked me right out of the chair. Bullet penetrated a tee shirt, a long sleeve canvas shirt, a wool sweater and a heavy field coat, went in 2 inches above and to the left of my belly button. That was 46 years ago and I still remember how much it hurt.


143 posted on 10/10/2012 11:41:54 PM PDT by 5th MEB (Progressives in the open; --- FIRE FOR EFFECT!!)
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To: Domangart
I didn't say the .22 wasn't lethal. I did say calling it a sniper weapon is a stretch. A .22 is good out to a limited distance.

This, from a website reviewing a .22 sniper rifle:

Because of the use of the factory sporter barrel and with the suppressor attached, and because its a .22, accuracy is not up to sniper rifle standard, but that is not the intended design of the rifle either. The purpose of this rifle is to take out porch or street lights and also the occasional guard dog when required. For this purpose, the accuracy and capability of the rifle is good indeed. Also, Tac-Ops related a story to us where a Green Hornet was used to shoot and kill a suspect who drew to fire at officers. As we all know, the .22 LR is deadly with a well placed shot. For this rifle, at 50y, the rifle will shot right about 1" groups. Beyond 50y, the .22 LR starts to suffer on any rifle, and as such struggles with this rifle also, but we were able to easily hit light bulb sized targets at 25 yards shooting from the offhand position.

50 yards. Not my definition of a sniper round.

144 posted on 10/11/2012 12:28:56 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

See my above message.


145 posted on 10/11/2012 12:31:28 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: papertyger

Because the article sucks, and the cop’s a hysterical idiot.

Better?


146 posted on 10/11/2012 5:45:52 AM PDT by green iguana
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