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China Defends Its Bricks (Indian carrier delayed for year, possible counterfeit Chinese parts)
Strategy Page ^ | October 9, 2012

Posted on 10/10/2012 7:22:55 PM PDT by JerseyanExile

China and Russia are arguing over the quality of Chinese firebricks. That's because last month Russia told India that delivery of the refurbished Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov (since renamed the INS Vikramaditya) would be delayed another ten months. The problem was that seven of eight steam boilers in the carrier power plant failed during recent high-speed trials. The Russians blame India for this, as the Indians refused to allow the Russians to use asbestos to insulate nearby engine components from the intense heat generated by the steam boilers. Instead the Russians had to use firebrick which, as some engineers suspected, was not adequate. Now extensive work has to be done on the engines to rectify the problem. The firebrick was bought from China and Russians now claim that the Chinese firm supplied defective firebrick. This dispute quickly escalated to the point where senior defense officials of both countries are hurling accusations and denials at each other via the media. Naturally this dispute invoked the "Chinese counterfeits" problem. China is the world leader in the production of counterfeit stuff. Not just luxury goods and high-end electronics but also aircraft and ship parts. Russian experts originally insisted that, even with good firebrick, the carrier engines really need asbestos. But some Russian shipyard officials blame poor workmanship, not substandard firebricks, for the engine failure.

The engine problem was discovered during the sea trials that have been under way for several months off the north coast (Barents Sea) of Russia. In all other respects the ship appears to be in working order. For example, two months ago the carrier experienced its first landing by a MiG-29. However, the sea trials had been delayed over a month by bad weather. India is not happy with yet another delay.

The Gorshkov served in the Russian Navy from 1987 to 1995, but was then withdrawn from service because the navy could not afford to keep the carrier operational. Gorshkov was put up for sale in 1996 and in 2005. India agreed to buy the Gorshkov if a few changes could be made. India paid over $2 billion to refurbish the Gorshkov and turn it into the Vikramaditya.

Some of the Indian crew has been working with the Vikramaditya for over a year, learning about all the ship's systems, and now most of the other 1,250 members of the crew are present. India was supposed to take possession of the Vikramaditya by late 2012, but that was recently delayed until early 2013, and is now delayed until late 2013. This project is now five years behind schedule and $1.5 billion over the original budget. It is a major cause of ill-will between Russia and India and has now worsened relations between China and Russia.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: china; india; indiannavy; insvikramaditya

1 posted on 10/10/2012 7:23:05 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: JerseyanExile

We should sell them space shuttle tile...


2 posted on 10/10/2012 7:35:22 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1359 of our ObamaVacation from reality - Obama, a queer and present danger)
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To: JerseyanExile

Chinese supplying bricks, Russian workers making a warship operable for India. What could go wrong?


3 posted on 10/10/2012 7:36:22 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: JerseyanExile

Sometimes asbestos really is the appropriate material in an application.


4 posted on 10/10/2012 7:38:25 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: JerseyanExile

The Indians should feel fortunate its only bricks.

The Chinese are selling us computer chips for our weapons systems.


5 posted on 10/10/2012 7:39:00 PM PDT by PGR88
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To: JerseyanExile

Haha, boilers?


6 posted on 10/10/2012 7:41:20 PM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: andyk

Not that nuclear carriers don’t operate with steam, but I’m picturing someone shoveling coal. :)


7 posted on 10/10/2012 7:43:13 PM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: SeaHawkFan

“Sometimes asbestos really is the appropriate material in an application.”

You mean like the top half of the 110 floor towers in NY on 9/11 ? Late towers I mean.


8 posted on 10/10/2012 7:47:52 PM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: andyk

In the Indian Navy, the boilers serve a dual purpose. They help run the ship and cook Ramen noodles.


9 posted on 10/10/2012 7:48:49 PM PDT by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: George from New England
You mean like the top half of the 110 floor towers in NY on 9/11 ? Late towers I mean.

On carriers your talking about enough heat that can either generate 600 or 1200 PSI steam pressure depending on which system they likely somewhat copied. USN used asbestos on all conventional powered carriers and likely Enterprise and Nimitz as well. I'm not sure what could replace it.

10 posted on 10/10/2012 8:04:42 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: andyk
Not that nuclear carriers don’t operate with steam, but I’m picturing someone shoveling coal. :)

DFM aka Diesel Fuel Marine fueled most likely.

11 posted on 10/10/2012 8:12:52 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: George from New England

Yeah, that crap is nasty!! I believe it was the ‘Cafco’ and ‘Monokote’ products that were two of the ‘popular’ spray on, (sometimes troweled on in limited applications), fireproofing materials for the red iron and exposed pan decking that were used when I was building ‘Skrapers in years long past. I have no idea what is used now. I wonder how much of that garbage I breathed in daily working up there around that crap during those years. Never have smoked but some days now my lungs hurt even with living up here in the mountains with it’s damn good fresh air. Oh well...gotta go from something I guess.


12 posted on 10/10/2012 8:13:13 PM PDT by bobby.223 (Retired high up in the mountains of the American Redoubt and it's a GREAT life!)
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To: JerseyanExile; All

You know that Communist Chinese products are crapola is when the Russians are complaining about them.


13 posted on 10/10/2012 8:40:16 PM PDT by SeminoleCounty (Political maturity is realizing that the "R" next to someone's name does not mean "conservative")
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To: JerseyanExile

It’s interesting that the Russians would sell a ship named for one of their greatest naval heroes—Sergei Gorshkov, the admiral who built the Soviet navy into a formidable force during the Brezhnev-Chernenko-Andropov-Gorbachev era.


14 posted on 10/10/2012 8:48:47 PM PDT by Fiji Hill (Io Triumphe!)
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To: George from New England

I was gonna say asbestos would likely have kept the WTC twin towers standing, but you basically beat me to the punch.


15 posted on 10/10/2012 8:54:43 PM PDT by rottndog (Be Prepared.....for what's coming AFTER America.)
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To: cva66snipe

USN hasn’t used asbestos for decades...they just went to a very thick high temp lagging.

One of the toughest days I ever spent on the boat was after overhaul during the first steam plant startup. The all new lagging had to cure, and there was a rather thick atmosphere in the engine room that burned the eyes. Took a few days for that to go away. I still remember that smell though.


16 posted on 10/10/2012 9:06:38 PM PDT by rottndog (Be Prepared.....for what's coming AFTER America.)
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To: SeaHawkFan

not all asbestos is friable, i would doubt it would be casing a engine boiler.


17 posted on 10/10/2012 10:08:48 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Enterprise

i was just thinking if they had a water cooling system around the boilers circulating all round the ship, they’d always have great hot water service. as well as a means to heat the ship through a temp control system.


18 posted on 10/10/2012 10:12:56 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: rottndog
USN hasn’t used asbestos for decades...they just went to a very thick high temp lagging.

It's still onboard the ships though. That's one of the reasons no one wanted to scrap any conventional CV's that and the PCB's make it cost prohibitive.

It's still used from a source I just checked History of Asbestos Usage in the Military but no where near too the extent it was back when I was in. In some places I don't see that they would have a choice especially on a riser.

Big E likely has less than it did due to SLEP and other overhauls but the conventionals were loaded with it.

I was on my ship when we came out for a shakedown in and out after the 80 overhaul. I was a one digit midget so I didn't go to the Mains. I usually didn't anyway I was A Gang AC&R. 1 & 2 Aux and the pump rooms was usually where I went to work.

19 posted on 10/10/2012 10:50:39 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Secret Agent Man

A carrier at sea even in winter North Atlantic will run A/C units believe it or not. Lots of equipment to generate heat. In the spring & summer it can take about 1600-1800 Tons of cooling at times. No A/C means going back to port fast.


20 posted on 10/10/2012 11:54:07 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Enterprise
They help run the ship and cook Ramen noodles.

LOL! Deliciously efficient!
21 posted on 10/11/2012 4:48:59 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: cva66snipe
In the spring & summer it can take about 1600-1800 Tons of cooling at times.

Wow, and here I thought 2 five ton units for my server room was impressive.
22 posted on 10/11/2012 4:51:49 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: cva66snipe

wow. great facts to know, i didn’t realize that.


23 posted on 10/11/2012 6:28:20 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: andyk
Wow, and here I thought 2 five ton units for my server room was impressive.

Keeping the electronics cooled on ship was my headache LOL. The carriers are cooled with a chill water loop which circulates through about 7-10 chillers depending on their tonnage. The Air Conditioning is the largest power draw on carriers. Just to start one up we had to call the electrical dispatcher {guy on watch in engineering control} and get permission from him and the engineering officer on watch. Turning one on it the system wasn't ready could cause power outages.

Seriously such equipment as the Gyro, navigation electronics, radar, in our case also sonar, and the Avionics and operations spaces was critical. Those spaces and the equipment they held were very heat intolerant when I was in.

24 posted on 10/11/2012 10:58:57 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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