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How I Misjudged the Debate in Real Time
Vanity ^ | October 12, 2012 | Nathan Bedford

Posted on 10/12/2012 12:35:48 AM PDT by nathanbedford

I think I misjudged the debate in real-time.

As the debate commenced Paul Ryan appeared to be nervous and he appeared nervous to a diminishing degree throughout the entire debate until the end when he recovered well, as witnessed by his frequent reaching for the water glass. As a result of his nervousness I thought he was tentative. Ironically, Biden might have sensed this nervousness or tentativeness in Ryan and overstepped.

When Biden made his first "buffoonish" intrusion I said to myself, "thank God!" I felt that Biden had made a signal error but I misjudged its impact by regarding it as a distraction. Evidently, it has become the very essence of the debate in the public mind.

Why I saw the debate so differently from how the world saw the debate is an object lesson in how far we political junkies can be isolated from the bulk of the electorate who do not live and breathe politics but who live normal lives. Perhaps it explains why the rest of the world does not vote as I would have them do. As a junkie, I felt increasingly frustrated over Ryan's performance for his failure to counterpunch effectively and, ultimately, because he could not shape the debate and so was predominantly on the defensive.

For example, Biden made the indefensible claim that the administration did not know about the requests for additional security in Benghazi. Ryan should have pointed out that that very day under oath the security people had stated that they begged for security. Worse, security was not furnished but was stripped away. Ryan should have pointed out that both State Department and the intelligence branches have disputed the administration's story. But most important, Ryan should have said "maybe that was because Obama went back to bed when he got his 3 AM phone call and only got up to go to Las Vegas. Maybe he the president would had known what was going on in Benghazi if he had attended his national security briefings. He did not take one briefing in the previous six days." Told in the correct tone of voice so as not to offend, I believe that would have destroyed the Obama administration for foreign affairs. As it was, Biden fought it to a draw or nearly so, a remarkable achievement considering the appalling facts.

But these are only illustrations of the general pattern which struck me at the time, which is to say in real time, in which Ryan permitted Biden to dominate and to kick up enough dust to obscure the grotesque failures of the Obama administration in foreign affairs and in domestic economic affairs. And that leads me to my larger point.

I believe that Benghazi should have been used as a metaphor for the failure of the Obama administration in foreign policy and even in domestic policy. Ryan said, but did not set as the predicate of the debate, that the Obama foreign policy is in flames, literally, as the Arab world breaches our embassies and murders our ambassadors and security chiefs throughout Islam. The important principle is that Ryan should have established at the very beginning the principle that Obama's policy of apology and appeasement has failed. It has not just failed with the Arab world, it has failed with China and Russia. To support that portion of the argument he should have cited Obama's on microphone remarks to Russian President Medvedev. Let Biden defend that episode for the rest of the debate. How many people even know or recall that episode? Oh, what an opportunity lost!

This would, I believe, have thrown Biden on the defense and caused the moderator to open the question of the competency of Obama's foreign policy. It would have changed the entire course of the debate.

Just as Hurricane Katrina became a metaphor for the failure of the Bush administration, representing the perceived incompetence of the Bush administration in Iraq, so should the Republicans make Benghazi a metaphor for the failures of the Obama administration. That metaphor applies to the failure to recover from the great recession. It is worse than a metaphor of incompetence, it is a metaphor for epic fail.

It is essential in these debates to set the predicate. The predicate for the tragic failure of the economic recovery is that Obama has squandered trillions of dollars without effecting a recovery and he is driving us us toward a fiscal cliff which will destroy those very programs like Medicare and Social Security that Biden kept insisting Romney/Ryan would themselves destroy if elected. If the country goes over the cliff there will be no Social Security, no Medicare, no jobs. The context is, how do we save the country; the proper context is not whether Ryan's reforms are palatable. Because we did not set the predicate we lost control.

Again, the idea is to put Biden on the defensive. If we do not accept the imperative of fiscal crisis compelling reform of Medicare and taxes etc., then we are put to defending our reforms and Biden gets to point out that his ostrich policy of lack of reform is less painful than our reforms. Because the predicate was not set, Ryan was on the defensive in the course of much of the debate until the very end when he began to make these larger points. But for most of the debate, it seemed to the uninformed that Ryan somehow failed in a duty which he somehow owed to the listeners to provide specifics for his plan. Think about it, the Democrats govern without a budget for three years and the debate is about whether or not the Romney/Ryan plan has adequate specifics.

So I was as relieved as I was surprised when I saw the results of the CNN poll favoring Ryan 48% to Biden's 44%. In my opinion, as a technical matter only, Biden delivered the better performance apart from the smirking. He was more self-assured. His voice was brilliantly modulated. He expressed himself far more clearly than did Ryan. He had more passion. He was credible even though he was saying incredible things and defending the indefensible. If it were not for the buffoonery, I believe the poll results might have been reversed.

I underestimated the visual impact of Biden's buffoonery. I thought it was a 60-40 victory for Biden before one adjusted for the buffoonery. That should show how dangerous it is to rely on one's own perceptions in these affairs. As a white male who loves the thrust and parry of politics, I was not personally disturbed by Biden's smirking, although I of course acknowledged that his conduct would have an impact on the rest of the public. I simply misjudged the power of that impact, especially among women. I put it down to nervousness for which Biden was overcompensating. When he heard a phrase from Ryan which triggered a Pavlovian response in which he had been trained over the last six days of debate preparation, Biden was happy and relieved because his internal computer told him to relax, it had the canned reply readily available in random access memory.

Obviously, the rest of the public saw Biden's behavior as offensive and inappropriate. I simply saw it as a unaccountable breach of good debating tactics in an old campaigner which was generated by insecurity. Biden has not disappointed his reputation as the gaffe that keeps on gaffing. Biden even as an old pro must carry somewhere within him the uneasy knowledge that he is defending the indefensible, that he is covering for a record of failure, that every single issue that comes up might potentially expose him as an exponent of failure before millions of people. When his inner computer told him that he had the proper canned response to Ryan ready to go, he was relieved and so it came out involuntarily as a smirk or a derisive laugh.

On the other hand, it might just be that Biden an insufferable Lib who goes through life smug in his conviction that he is superior to conservatives and that he actually has the better side of the argument.

All of this is mildly interesting I guess, but the real question is, does this debate alter the trajectory of the campaign? I tend to agree with the conventional wisdom that it does not. We shall see in the coming days if the Romney surge dissipates or not. The big question is whether Romney's momentum generated in the first debate will gain critical mass and sweep the election before it like an avalanche or whether it will dissipate as, in Churchill's metaphor, a bucket full of water splashed onto the floor which begins as a powerful flood and slowly loses speed and power as spreads. I am inclined to believe that the Obama slide will lose speed but not its direction and will not bottom out until it finds its demographic base level of dependency and race.

If the Romney surge continues at its current pace, I do not think Obama will have enough opportunity in the next debate to derail Romney trajectory short of 270. Biden's buffoonery will not have affected Obama's base but this election has now focused on the undecideds and Republican intensity. Having seen the reaction in the polls, the focus groups, the television pundits, and the reports from Tweeter world, I now believe Biden's buffoonery aborted any possible movement of the undecideds towards Obama while it only intensified Romney's base. Biden might, at best, have slowed the pace of disintegration in the Obama base but the Democrats need more.

I think it is important that women, a demographic key to Obama's victory but where Obama has been losing strength lately, will have found Biden's performance offputting.

So far, Republicans have produced one brilliant debate and the Democrats have produced one pathetic and one ineffectual performance.


TOPICS: FReeper Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2012debates; debate; vanity
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1 posted on 10/12/2012 12:35:55 AM PDT by nathanbedford
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To: nathanbedford

Because I enjoy your posts and it is late...to be read later.


2 posted on 10/12/2012 12:41:58 AM PDT by berdie
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To: nathanbedford

On the foreign policy side ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFf0dUH3OtU


3 posted on 10/12/2012 12:43:50 AM PDT by cynwoody
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To: nathanbedford

The only thing memorable coming out of this debate are Biden’s antics and claim that the embassy personnel on Libya did not ask for more security.

Pugnacious partisans such as ourselves wanted to see more pushback, but I’m sure Biden’s behavior was anticipated by the Romney campaign and the message to Ryan was to ignore these antics. Having a back and forth slugfest would have been more viscerally satisfying, but it would have done nothing to help the Romney campaign.


4 posted on 10/12/2012 12:44:18 AM PDT by Arthurio
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To: Arthurio
I agree with your much more concise assessment especially including your observation that,

"Having a back and forth slugfest would have been more viscerally satisfying, but it would have done nothing to help the Romney campaign."

Which is why I was careful to require:

"Told in the correct tone of voice so as not to offend,"


5 posted on 10/12/2012 12:52:41 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

Nathan, did you see my Biden Wifebeater article?


6 posted on 10/12/2012 12:55:42 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: nathanbedford

I envy those who have great writing skills. Thank you. They knew the moderator would be pro-Biden. Ryan was to stay cool and let Biden, with the help of the moderator, become overly confident. Ryan saw it happen, needled Biden, then the Biden laughter to cover his anger. Ryan spoke mainly to the Independents. Biden was appealing to the base. The shrewd one was Ryan which is why he won the debate. The less comments he made the less there is to scrutinize the next day by the obamamedia.


7 posted on 10/12/2012 1:01:17 AM PDT by bronxville (Margaret Sanger - “We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,)
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To: nathanbedford

He probably should have been armed with some more one liners. He had a pretty good one for the 47% attack - equating it to Biden’s gaffes.

Biden is a real shark though, and has been debating and arguing before Ryan was even in diapers. There would have been a real danger to attempt a toe to toe exchange, with little upside other than our visceral pleasure.

The important thing is he walked away without any gaffes, or Dan Quayle “deer in the headlights” type of moment. This allows the campaign to return to the Romney momentum story.

I also think this play it safe strategy by Ryan and Biden’s hyper aggressiveness shows that both campaigns believe that Romney truly is ahead and it isn’t just some debate bounce polling aberration.


8 posted on 10/12/2012 1:01:31 AM PDT by Arthurio
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To: Arthurio
Having a back and forth slugfest would have been more viscerally satisfying, but it would have done nothing to help the Romney campaign.

I wanted to see Ryan slug Martha, the so-called moderator. But you're right, Ryan acted more presidential and adult-like. Biden may have satisfied the far-left democrat base but his joker/jerk manerisms turned off independents and probably swung some on-the-fence democrats to the Romney/Ryan side. Many realized how buffoonish Biden looked and realized his interruptions were an attempt to drown out Ryan's far more convincing statements.

9 posted on 10/12/2012 1:02:06 AM PDT by roadcat
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To: nathanbedford

I think your analysis is good.

I don’t think Paul Ryan had the intention of going for the jugular and was intentionally playing it safe.

I was neither exceptionally happy nor disappointed with Ryan.

I actually think the safe mode was tactically correct play to make in light of Biden’s performance.

Conversely, I think Biden was advised to do the opposite.

However, the election all comes down to getting votes of white middle class women in the midwest.

This is where the Obama/Biden/Liberal Arrogance does them their biggest disservice.

Biden[’s act might play well for MSNBC, but neither campaign should try to earn the votes of the New York/Washington liberal media.

They should be trying to earn the vote of my mom.

Now who did a better job of getting the vote of a mom in the midwest, Biden or Ryan?

Ryan is obviously the clear winner from a practical non-ideological. point of view and Biden is a big loser, a bigger loser than the liberal media conventional wisdom believes right now.


10 posted on 10/12/2012 1:02:41 AM PDT by radpolis (Liberals: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy)
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To: nathanbedford

May I promote this to Freeper Editorial?


11 posted on 10/12/2012 1:03:30 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: bronxville

Bottomline: Ryan consciously let Biden interrupt and take over the debate.


12 posted on 10/12/2012 1:05:41 AM PDT by bronxville (Margaret Sanger - “We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population,)
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To: nathanbedford
I simply misjudged the power of that impact, especially among women. I put it down to nervousness for which Biden was overcompensating.

Very interesting. I simply could not look at Biden. He just made me so overwrought. I didn't think one logical thought about his behavior, LOL.

13 posted on 10/12/2012 1:06:57 AM PDT by donna (Pray for revival.)
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bfl


14 posted on 10/12/2012 1:09:17 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: nathanbedford

Well said Nathan.

The weakness of our ticket wins by default. You could have creamed the jerk, but I guess we have moved on to a repeat of the kinder, gentler conservative era.


15 posted on 10/12/2012 1:11:24 AM PDT by itsahoot (I'll write in Palin in 2012. That is 1 vote for Palin, 0 votes for Romney and Zer0 votes for Obama.)
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To: nathanbedford

I remembered from Biden’s debate with Palin 4 years ago that he has the brilliant ability to spin facts out of thin air on the fly, made to order, a perfect fit for the needs of the moment. He can then freely contradict himself a moment later as the need changes.

And in the heat of the debate, he is almost never called on it. Whether Palin or Ryan, they will be momentarily dumbfounded, not knowing how to respond, and the moment passes. He got away with it by sheer brazenness.

He did it again tonight. It will be days before the fact checkers unravel everything he said, and by that time it won’t matter. Too much of the audience is impressed with his obvious knowledge and command of facts on every subject, impressed with his bold confidence, and too few will ever figure out that he was making most of it up on the fly.

I remember in the debate with Palin he went on about how we and the French had kicked Hezbollah’s ass and Palin stared at him, mystified, and the moment was lost. Or his remarks about FDR’s televised fireside chats. Tonight almost nothing he said about Libya was true, or Afghanistan, or Syria, or the budget, the church, or anything else. But he said it with supreme confidence.

In his way, Obama did much the same thing. But Romney had enough command of the facts to sweep all that aside, and when he didn’t, he just said what he had to say and made the president answer him instead of getting into the weeds with Obama’s alternate reality. I think Ryan tried to do the same thing but he got steam rolled a bit.

I agree with your point that, unless we hammer the point about the deficit, which got short shrift (and always sounds like an accounting problem when Ryan talks about it), then the solutions to the problem will always be spun as GOP stingyness and successfully so. The more we try to explain about tax rates and budgets the more we sound like we’re just money-grubbing. We have to talk about freedom, the big stuff. As soon as we get drawn into talking about budget cuts we’re hammered as Scrooges who hate poor people. We have to keep to the high ground and talk about big subjects and stay out of the weeds.


16 posted on 10/12/2012 1:19:43 AM PDT by marron
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To: nathanbedford

The smirk, 4 minutes plus seconds to talk, and interrupting NINETY SIX times showed me Biden’s ineffectiveness.


17 posted on 10/12/2012 1:20:06 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: nathanbedford

Instead of posting a new thread... I post the mp3 podcast of Rusty Humphries show here. It really sounds like the people posting it cut up the podcast which is a shame. They could have posted all the debate which started the hour Rusty starts or they could have just started with Rusty’s comments. But instead they started with the last 30 minutes of the debate so that is first. But the point for posting it is the comments after the debate. Well anybody who cares can listen to it.
http://www.trn1.com/uploads/automp3/rusty/Rusty_10-11-2012.mp3

Also a montage of Biden which is longer than the RNC ad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwykoYWf_40

Well since the podcast of Rusty is cut up then here is the debate video from youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3roG09O6T4


18 posted on 10/12/2012 1:21:13 AM PDT by Mozilla
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To: Lazamataz

Sure, Laz


19 posted on 10/12/2012 1:23:02 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Arthurio; radpolis
 
 
Yep - I think it went down like it should have. Biden is a self-important flake and all he had to work with is policy holes to only make deeper, which he did. He may have entertained his base for the evening, but convincing the general electorate that Team Obama is credible and trustworthy - no. The debate postmortems in the next 24-48 hours are going to be brutal.
 
 

20 posted on 10/12/2012 1:23:12 AM PDT by lapsus calami (What's that stink? Code Pink ! ! And their buddy Murtha, too!)
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To: nathanbedford
I understand your complaints but Ryan was not trying to engage Biden, he was trying to engage with the moderator and the audience.

I feel asleep listening to debate on radio. Biden was clearly trying to dominate the younger Ryan and push him off message.

Yes Ryan was a little anxious, expected on this stage for the first time, but he didn't stray far in what I heard. He didn't take the bait from Biden and he handed the 47% line well by gently poking fun at Biden.

Biden wasted his time trying to talk over Ryan and instead of talking Obama policy going forward would complain about Romney and Bush.

Ryan was smart to point out Obama had a unified government when he was elected and bring up the old Obama quote about failing candidates talking now about their policies but trying to make you afraid of their opponents. That was devastating.

Too many here complain about "missed opportunities;" I saw the same said about Romney's first performance which, frankly, was a masterclass. He probably could not have done better. Forgotten in all this is the audience. This isn't about scoring in a debate class. It's about SALESMANSHIP. You don't pile on, you don't oversell, you don't appear desperate.

21 posted on 10/12/2012 1:26:47 AM PDT by newzjunkey (Osama's dead... and so is our ambassador - Coulter.)
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To: All

I should add the podcast mentions Rusty is changing time slots live so I will have to check out when he will be on. As you know jerry Doyle took over for savage. Should have been Rusty, but I like that rusty is on so late he is on during debates and convention coverage and other primetime breaking news so he is usually the first show to comment on issues of the day the other shows have to catchup with the next day.


22 posted on 10/12/2012 1:30:07 AM PDT by Mozilla
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To: nathanbedford
The good news is that, according to CNN, most people felt Ryan won the debate.

That said, I think he missed too many opportunities. He should have pointed out during Biden's rant about Iraq that Biden voted for the war. He should have pointed out that GM did go bankrupt, and all Obama did was take control of the process to pay off the UAW at the expense of the bond holders.

And he should have brought up this: How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis: Kevin Hassett

Maybe R&R are holding back, but I wish he had been more aggressive with some of this.

23 posted on 10/12/2012 1:31:11 AM PDT by TwelveOfTwenty (Ho, ho, hey, hey, I'm BUYcotting Chick-Fil-A)
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To: nathanbedford
Good Post!

This so reminds me of the Bush-Gore debate when Gore acted so much like a jerk:

Question? Who won the debate?

Gore

Question? Who are you going to vote for?

Bush

Did you notice that Biden beat up on Ryan over Part D Medicare and then turned around later and touted Part D? What an idiot.

In order for this to be a game changer, Biden needed to absolutely put Ryan away. Because of Biden’s rude and condescending attitude, that didn't happen.

24 posted on 10/12/2012 1:32:37 AM PDT by Aunt Polgara
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To: All

Rusty mentioned it at start of hour three. He is moving to 3pm eastern. But some stations have no room for him since they have a set schedule with other shows so they will still run Rusty at 9pm eastern. But this also means his podcast will be on earlier. So Rusty did not replace savage but will be on during Hannity. That should be fun. Gives conservatives a better option than Hannity.


25 posted on 10/12/2012 1:34:55 AM PDT by Mozilla
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To: Safetgiver
The smirk, 4 minutes plus seconds to talk, and interrupting NINETY SIX times showed me Biden’s ineffectiveness.

Now, now, Safetgiver, don't exaggerate. According to the RNC, Binden only interrupted Ryan 82 times! :-)

26 posted on 10/12/2012 1:36:56 AM PDT by Aunt Polgara
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To: Aunt Polgara

Bohannon had a woman from a Television fact check organization who stated it was 96 interruptions (probably counted all the asides he smirked off to his right hand side and the ‘Oh, Gods’ under his breath) to Ryan’s 6 interuptions.


27 posted on 10/12/2012 1:50:41 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: nathanbedford
Why I saw the debate so differently from how the world saw the debate is an object lesson in how far we political junkies can be isolated from the bulk of the electorate who do not live and breathe politics but who live normal lives.

Yes. I tried to look at this debate as a truly undecided voter...there are so few of them this time around. If I were an undecided voter, I would have been a bit irritated at the rudeness of Biden. On the other side, I would say Ryan was at times a wee bit too "technical" with his explanations. But if I was judging them as men, I think Ryan came across as more grown up.

28 posted on 10/12/2012 2:25:03 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: nathanbedford
I think Ryan's biggest problem tonight was that he is an honest, narrowly-focused, detail-oriented person. He was acting as though he needed to refute, in minute factual detail, each of Biden's statements. When he would begin to refute one, Biden would interrupt his train of thought with another, and Ryan would stop to begin to address the latest; constantly having to restart, never finishing what he started. In essence, he ended up not really refuting any of them effectively.

That was the point of the Democrat strategy, and I believe that had Biden not been cheesing so much acting as though everything Ryan said was ludicrous, he would have been viewed as having soundly beaten the Republican VP nominee.

Fortunately for us, it appears that Biden went too far and came across as the a-hole he really is. It also helps that while the casual observer's eyes glaze over when Ryan gets into the details, Biden jarred their attention with his buffoonery.

29 posted on 10/12/2012 2:39:07 AM PDT by Squeako (The radicals are the wolves. The moderates are the wolves in sheep's clothing.)
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To: radpolis

Biden was “Eddie Haskel” to Ryan’s “Wally.”


30 posted on 10/12/2012 2:39:35 AM PDT by marsh2
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To: nathanbedford

Obama = Downers

Biden = Uppers


31 posted on 10/12/2012 2:39:49 AM PDT by Right Wing Assault (Dick Obama is more inexperienced now than he was before he was elected.)
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To: marsh2

“Biden was “Eddie Haskel” to Ryan’s “Wally.””

You nailed it.


32 posted on 10/12/2012 2:48:57 AM PDT by BelleAl (Proud to be a member of the party of NO! NO more deficit spending and government control!)
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To: nathanbedford

Ryan came prepared to carry on a serious discussion. Biden came to try to cast him as Dan Quayle. The Kennedy reference couldn’t even be delivered with precision. It flopped miserably.

Ryan refused to stoop to his level. WOMEN weren’t having any of Biden’s juvenile behavior. After debate responses reveal he even lost them.

Yes, you and I would have loved to see Ryan deliver some of the retorts you mentioned. Frankly, those would only have served to detract from Biden’s distracting behavior in the eyes of the glazed over Leftist sect.

I think Ryan played it about right. When your enemy is destroying himself, don’t interrupt. More factual information would merely have been laughed at by Biden.

Biden seriously hurt his own ticket last night. Obama didn’t care to engage. Biden now takes his debate as one big joke.

That’s some tag team there, and they’re being laughed off the national stage.

Think of all the serious issues Biden laughed through last night. Think anyone is taking him serious this morning?

No.


33 posted on 10/12/2012 2:49:40 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (The U. S. Democrat Party, Al Queda's U. S. front organization. And the rank and file has no clue.)
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To: nathanbedford

Romney was brilliant in his closing to refer to the Declaration and Constitution, quoting them, although , of course, he did have the prompt of the set wall paper. I was disappointed Ryan didn’t pick up that theme in his closing. Also, the number they need to have people remember isn’t “47%, “ or even 23,000,000 but 4,000, the decline of household income during Obama-Biden. As another poster pointed out in a discussion weeks ago, that’s a middle class family that does without a vacation this year, or indeed, has no discretionary income to do anything.


34 posted on 10/12/2012 3:14:24 AM PDT by gusopol3
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To: nathanbedford
There's an older guy I play softball with who uses the laughing antic as he tries to talk over me and shout me down when we discuss anything. Time and time again I have to tell him to shut up until I have made my point then he can have his say.....

I'm getting tired of it and one day I'm just going to knock him on his ass.......(Im surprised I haven't already)

35 posted on 10/12/2012 3:24:23 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (Jab him with a harpoon.....)
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To: newzjunkey

Exactly! You can win the debate and lose the election!


36 posted on 10/12/2012 3:31:45 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: Squeako
I agree as I watched the debate, I thought Biden won. I was irritated by the interruptions and antics, but more bothered by Ryan not staying on the points he was trying to refute. The moderator piling onto those interruptions did not help. Romney, in the first debate, did not let the moderator get away it. Ryan attempted the same tactic, to manage the moderator, he was then spoken over by Biden.

But I did have a fleeting thought as the debate started out with Biden’s lie about Libya...America DOES know differently, America is engaged with regards to what happened there. I think we under-estimate those undecided voters. Right about now they are coming online to get information. Biden telling a lie right out in the first 2 minutes of the debate and then people seeing his buffoonery...I think it was a deadly wrong tactic for the voters who just might actually save this nation by their vote.

So they saw 0bama and his epic failure in the first debate.

Now, they saw Biden lie, actually lie in the course of a debate about the death of dignitaries representing America overseas.

Biden did not win any trust because he started out telling the Libya lie, to a national audience, that is waking up to learn they were lied to all through September. BAAAAd move by Biden. I view the undecideds as people who were tuning in to here Ryan and wanted information and points about Romney/Ryan, they already had a picture in their minds about gaffe prone Biden. Biden reinforced that picture last night. That said, I think the debate left folks more frustrated. But, as any parent knows when dealing with children, the loudest one has the most to hide.

37 posted on 10/12/2012 3:36:16 AM PDT by EBH (0bama is guilty of willful neglect of duty.)
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To: Lazamataz

No,sir. Lay it on me.


38 posted on 10/12/2012 3:38:11 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford; berdie; cynwoody; Arthurio; Lazamataz; bronxville; roadcat; radpolis; donna; ...
Arthurio: Biden is a real shark though, and has been debating and arguing before Ryan was even in diapers. There would have been a real danger to attempt a toe to toe exchange, with little upside other than our visceral pleasure.

Too true, Art. In stark contrast to our common hope, expressed so many times after the first debate that "Super smart tea party Ryan will mop the floor with statist buffoon Biden."

Mastery of the finest Martial Arts helps little in mud wrestling.

This is why I'm so dour on the whole election.

We keep trying to sew silk purses out of the sow's ear reality that roughly half of the people in this country want people like Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reid, Axelrod, Rahm, Brown, SEIU etc "fighting" (people like us) "for them."

I saw a CNN comments section which was mostly "tax them till they bleed" comments, products of our gubbmint schools no doubt.

Even if we fixed the schools today, we wouldn't see those voters until after 2030.

If indeed the cause is lost (and I pray the Lord saves us in spite of ourselves), then the historical corollary might be that Reagan was our Fort Sumpter, Bush/Gore 2000 was Gettysburg, and we're now in the wilderness campaign.

39 posted on 10/12/2012 4:09:44 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: nathanbedford
Nathan, thank you for your observations and analyses.

I too noticed the waterglass and each time was concerned for the constriction of Ryan's throat. From my observations of public speakers this is the first symptom of increasing stress and several times I felt Ryan's voice was losing its projection. It would not surprise me to find that Biden also noted the frequency of Ryan's waterglass and seized on this chink in the armor. Perhaps Paul had read Sun Tzu and gave this head-fake to goad Joe into a overly-aggressive posture. If so, I believe it worked and the post-debate discussion is as much about Joe's demeanor than the content of the discussions.

My enduring concern throughout this election season is the temperament of women - most are driven by superficial issues and often go for the Slick-talker. Here is where I feel this debate may be most significant: the women I know are confrontation-averse mostly due to their fear being bullied and demeaned in the manner of Joe Biden. Surely Paul had numerous opportunities to strike at Obama/Biden's carotids but maintaining a civil discourse may well be realized as the most effective weapon brought to bare at this moment.

Paul Ryan is an honorable man and I am gratified that he did not lower himself to the tone and demeanor that Joe Biden exemplified last night.

40 posted on 10/12/2012 4:11:01 AM PDT by corkoman (Release the Palin!)
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To: nathanbedford

No one will remember what was said here....but they will remember the monkey in the left-hand TV screen. Women especially were disgusted by the antics of Biden, who looked like an ill-mannered third-grader who craved attention.


41 posted on 10/12/2012 4:25:49 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: nathanbedford

I’m surprised at the reaction to the debate. I thought this was even more lopsided than Romney vs. Obama. Ryan was clear, concise, gentlemanly, and made excellent points. Ryan showed himself to be a competent alternative and did no damage. He was more appealling to women per the dials. Romney and Ryan are very successfully gathering up the undecides and moderates with their strategy. Ryan has been debating goofs like Biden in the house for a long while. A routine win for Ryan


42 posted on 10/12/2012 4:26:04 AM PDT by Crooked Constituent
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To: nathanbedford

one ineffectual performance (and may I add) again.


43 posted on 10/12/2012 4:29:22 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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To: roadcat

I wanted to see Ryan slug Martha...and I was hoping he’d knock Joe’s implanted teeth out!!


44 posted on 10/12/2012 4:34:00 AM PDT by FES0844
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To: nathanbedford

My biggest disappointment of the night was Ryan passing up the perfect opportunity to mention Obama’s Las Vegas trip on the heels of the terrorist attack.


45 posted on 10/12/2012 4:42:07 AM PDT by jersey117
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To: nathanbedford
On the other hand, it might just be that Biden an insufferable Lib who goes through life smug in his conviction that he is superior to conservatives and that he actually has the better side of the argument.

Like all the democrats he is arrogant and has a completely delusional idea of how wise they are compared to everybody else
46 posted on 10/12/2012 5:05:07 AM PDT by uncbob
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To: nathanbedford
It was a short knock-off piece, but I feel it nailed some points.
47 posted on 10/12/2012 5:11:12 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: nathanbedford

bttt


48 posted on 10/12/2012 5:30:01 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ( ‘An Armed Man is a Citizen – A Disarmed Man is a Subject’ ~ Allen West)
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To: nathanbedford

Done. You are in Freeper Editorials now.


49 posted on 10/12/2012 5:30:50 AM PDT by Lazamataz (WAAAAAAAAAHHHhhhhh.....)
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To: nathanbedford

“, so should the Republicans make Benghazi a metaphor for the failures of the Obama administration. That metaphor applies to the failure to recover from the great recession. It is worse than a metaphor of incompetence, it is a metaphor for epic fail.”

I love reaing your posts, but the fact of the matter is that all of this administrations lies regarding the attack don’t matter to the people getting “free stuff.” They will always vote for the ones giving it away


50 posted on 10/12/2012 5:30:50 AM PDT by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like it)
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