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Clinton killed the Higgs boson search (19 years ago today)
NY Times ^ | Oct. 31, 1993 | NY Times

Posted on 10/31/2012 7:49:42 AM PDT by fishtank

Article at link.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: boson; higgs; texas
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/31/us/stating-regret-clinton-signs-bill-that-kills-supercollider.html?src=pm
1 posted on 10/31/2012 7:49:43 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/31/us/stating-regret-clinton-signs-bill-that-kills-supercollider.html?src=pm


2 posted on 10/31/2012 7:53:54 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider


3 posted on 10/31/2012 7:54:19 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank
Texas Scientists Regret Loss of Higgs Boson Quest (July 4, 2012
4 posted on 10/31/2012 7:56:14 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

Killing spending that isn’t in the Constitution is a good thing. 90% of our spending needs killing.

Bill Clinton is a self-serving.....fill in the blank, but we should be grateful any time something is cut.


5 posted on 10/31/2012 7:57:36 AM PDT by lurk
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To: fishtank
Well thank you Bill Clinton.

Thank you for killing an $11 Billion welfare project for engineers and cement and construction contractors. No doubt the final tab would have been $40 Billion.

President Clinton did the right thing in this case.

6 posted on 10/31/2012 8:00:54 AM PDT by The Free Engineer
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To: fishtank
Should have outsourced the Collider eith these folks:


7 posted on 10/31/2012 8:04:37 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: fishtank

And no one in the media called Clintoon a Anti-science creationist knuckle dragging Neaderthal...


8 posted on 10/31/2012 8:06:46 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: fishtank

I always thought he killed it because it was in Texas. What a waste of time and resources but maybe the new research of the same sort was better? Where did they finally do that research?


9 posted on 10/31/2012 8:11:39 AM PDT by outinyellowdogcountry
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To: fishtank

Peter Higgs already did it 48 years ago with pencil and paper. Let the EU blow treasure creating obscenely expensive bubble tracks through liquid hydrogen.


10 posted on 10/31/2012 8:40:51 AM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: outinyellowdogcountry
CERN. I forget how much the US taxpayers still ending up paying, but the Europeans got a lot of construction and manufacturing jobs out of it.

And France got a new N-plant, rather than building new power plants in Texas.

11 posted on 10/31/2012 8:50:19 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: outinyellowdogcountry

You could be right about that — New Mexico made a bid for the project as well. It went to CERN in Switzerland.


12 posted on 10/31/2012 8:59:56 AM PDT by TiaS
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To: fishtank

One of the few good things that he did.


13 posted on 10/31/2012 9:42:44 AM PDT by eclecticEel (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 7/4/1776 - 3/21/2010)
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To: outinyellowdogcountry

I was there as a Senior Engineer in Magnet Testing. It was a typical smeer job by the press. Congress was turning it’s eye to cutting funds; SSCL went down, and then NASA as well, but nothing happened to NASA.

What happened to the SSCL was a travesty. From that point forward, the big science no longer occurred in this country. In this case, we “outsourced” it to CERN. We send money and tech to CERN. It was NOT rampant overspending at the SSCL. It was a failure to communicate to the public the benefits of such science.


14 posted on 10/31/2012 9:59:54 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: SgtHooper

That is my assessment and it didn’t make sense to end the progress that already had been made. The fact that CERN completed the project shows the interest and value. I know of a couple of people that worked on the project as well, one is my pastor’s wife.


15 posted on 10/31/2012 10:20:30 AM PDT by outinyellowdogcountry
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To: SgtHooper

Thanks for your post.

The small amount of money (comparatively) for the SCSC would have been called a “good investment” if the Higgs boson discovery had a big Lone Star on its portrait ‘photograph’.


16 posted on 10/31/2012 11:22:23 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: outinyellowdogcountry

Wow, send me a private with her name. We (my wife) still keep in touch with some of the ppl who worked there, and still live in the area of Waxahachie, etc., south of Dallas.

The SSCL machine was designed to be far more powerful than the CERN machine, and any collider machine on earth, but who knows if that would have made any difference-one would think so, though.


17 posted on 10/31/2012 6:02:56 PM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: fishtank

The SSCL was a black hole for techies coming in from all over the world, including other US labs such as Fermi and Brookhaven, which, of course, were not too happy about that! So it was very political in that respect. The technology to operate the cryogenic plants spotted around the 52 mile ring had not “matured” yet, but they figured that by the time they needed to make it all work in about 5 years hence (sync the control systems of the plants), the fiber optic tech would have been invented and ready for use. There were physicists, engineers, etc., coming to the Lab even after funding was pulled and most others had already left. This is because they had sold homes, quit jobs, bought homes in Texas, etc., and were then already committed to coming to Texas. Many came anyway, and found other jobs, started their own businesses, etc. But some had to move to Texas with no prospects at all.


18 posted on 10/31/2012 6:16:04 PM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: The Free Engineer

$40 billion eh? Cripes, Obama spends more than this in one year alone on food stamps. At least the people at the SSC showed up for work.


19 posted on 10/31/2012 6:24:06 PM PDT by chimera
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To: fishtank

Ah, the anti-science types just love this stuff. It’s a national shame that some conservatives are too uncaring to spend a pitance on keeping the USA as a scientific leader.


20 posted on 10/31/2012 6:39:53 PM PDT by Monty22002
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To: SgtHooper
As I recall we spent almost as much money (maybe more?) rebuilding Fermi and “investing” in CERN than we would have if we had built the SSC.

Folks have tried to turn the tunnels into mushroom farms, and a few other schemes, but none have worked. At least they used their money. Now the plastics company is making use of the buildings.

It sounds like I live just west of you in Midlo.

21 posted on 11/01/2012 6:42:41 AM PDT by texas booster (Join FreeRepublic's Folding@Home team (Team # 36120) Cure Alzheimer's!)
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To: texas booster

We lived in DeSoto, but I went into IP law and now live in OH. You recall correctly. Funds went directly over to CERN and funding increased to FermiLab and other US labs.

60 Minutes came to the SSCL with an agenda to destroy it by exposing all sorts of “misspending”, which even back then was totally blown out of proportion. We were supposedly wasting millions on “artwork, plants” and alcohol-fueled parties. Yes, money was spent on pictures for walls and plants to make the office environment more suitable. These types of expenditures were normal in any government-funded operation. We DID surprise me, coming from a major company who did contract work for nuclear weapons labs, was that when major milestones were reached, the Lab did spend some money on wine, beer and finger food to celebrate, but this usually was nominal, say $1,000 or less. BUT, where I came from, we NEVER did this. So that served as a major point to publicize.


22 posted on 11/01/2012 8:30:53 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: chimera

The 40 Bln number is BS. When it crashed, the funding to build was projected at about 10 Bln, which was much more than 4 Bln in a previous estimate, which was more than 1 Bln from an even more previous estimate. The physickers are not good money ppl, so the steady increase in projected funding caught the eye of many. But it was stablizing around the 10-11 Bln mark to build. I forget the projected annual maintenance costs, but it had to be much less.

It was a great bunch of ppl from all walks of life, local and from far away, all sorts of nationalities, etc. Locals who had lived for years and generations on farms and homes on the ground surface above where the collider ring was to be constructed were bought out (forcefully), uprooted, and moved. Many homes were picked up and moved to large “parking lots”. Others were simply leveled. 52 miles of this, which was largely open area, but still, ppl were packed up and moved out, for nothing. How’s that for getting a good taste of government BS.


23 posted on 11/01/2012 8:45:55 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: SgtHooper
I know it is BS. It was just the number mentioned in the previous post. My guess was about $15 billion to bring it online. I did a subcontract with the radiation testing for the cryogenic sensors that were to be used to keep an eye on the superconducting magnets.

The US government is probably the worst "business partner" you can have. They pull the plug on things when they are almost done, not just partially completed like the SSC. A number of people I know were canned when Clinton (Hillary) killed the IFR at Idaho Lab. Others I knew at LANL got the ax when Clinton killed the nuclear weapons program.

24 posted on 11/01/2012 10:16:45 AM PDT by chimera
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To: fishtank
Clinton only killed the program in anger upon discovering that he had mistakenly assumed the search was for Higgs' Bosom.
25 posted on 11/01/2012 10:26:40 AM PDT by andy58-in-nh (Cogito, ergo armatum sum.)
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To: Monty22002
It’s a national shame that some conservatives are too uncaring

"Uncaring"?! Spare me your bleeding-heart blubbering.

to spend a pitance on keeping the USA as a scientific leader.

Real conservatives are unwilling to spend a penny of SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY on anything other than the defense of individual liberties. You want to keep the USA as a scientific leader, make a voluntary contribution.

26 posted on 11/01/2012 11:22:39 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: SgtHooper; fishtank
It was a failure to communicate to the public the benefits of such science.

What benefits?

27 posted on 11/01/2012 11:26:13 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

All along the way from construction (big bore) to system designs for cryogenics on never-before built large rings, superconducting materials and testing, build of specialty SC magnets, super large detectors for never-before ring energies, the computing systems that were being developed to anaylze the sensor data, SC cable winding machines, presses, cable testing machines, engineering for massive 10k and 15k amp dc power supplies, radiation detection and anlysis, and on and on. All designed first-time machines. And this is only for construction and setup.

When operating on daily basis, who knows. What is learned/benefits of FermiLab, CERN, etc. The main benefit is to find the Higgs boson, and then to begin put the pieces back together in desired ways for the desired purposes - drugs, materials, etc. This is/was the centrol goal in this big science. Spinoff tech is a big part of it as well. It is the unknown part, but invariably happens in such projects.


28 posted on 11/01/2012 7:36:26 PM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: GraceG

Heh! I just bought my Son a shirt with the Black Mesa symbol on it..


29 posted on 11/01/2012 7:46:28 PM PDT by RandallFlagg ("Liberalism is about as progressive as CANCER" -Alfonzo Rachel)
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To: SgtHooper
It was a failure to communicate to the public the benefits of such science.

What benefits?

All along the way from construction (big bore) to system designs for cryogenics on never-before built large rings, superconducting materials and testing, build of specialty SC magnets, super large detectors for never-before ring energies, the computing systems that were being developed to anaylze the sensor data, SC cable winding machines, presses, cable testing machines, engineering for massive 10k and 15k amp dc power supplies, radiation detection and anlysis, and on and on. All designed first-time machines. And this is only for construction and setup.

Sounds like fun - but I fail to see the "benefits" (that the public should care about, anyway) in construction (big bore), never-before built large rings, specialty SC magnets, super large detectors for never-before ring energies, or radiation detection and analysis.

There are probably a few genuine public benefits in your list - but none that couldn't be accomplished less expensively (and none that are within the feds' Constitutional mandate, not that you claimed they were).

When operating on daily basis, who knows. What is learned/benefits of FermiLab, CERN, etc. The main benefit is to find the Higgs boson,

No direct public benefit there.

and then to begin put the pieces back together in desired ways for the desired purposes - drugs, materials, etc.

Are you claiming that finding the Higgs boson will advance drugs, materials, etc? I find that extremely hard to believe since the Higgs boson is a mechanism to resolve theoretical contradictions between already-known facts (nonzero fermion and weak boson masses on the one hand, and electroweak gauge symmetry on the other).

30 posted on 11/02/2012 7:42:21 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

Were/are there any benefits from NASA? With your line of reasoning, that should never have been funded.


31 posted on 11/02/2012 8:20:34 AM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: SgtHooper
Quite possibly not. Do you consider it a self-evident truth that funding NASA was a conservative policy?
32 posted on 11/02/2012 9:55:22 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: Monty22002

bttt


33 posted on 11/02/2012 9:57:03 AM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

Hmmm, not sure how you made the leap to that notion. My point was that if you apply your reasoning to NASA and its moon landing, satellites throughout solar system and beyond, Hubble, etc., you fail to appreciate the value of such big science. Yes, yes, take the 20-30 bln funding each year and just give it to the poor, but that solves nothing.

The benefits include not only jobs (which I abhor such projects merely for jobs), but also to retain scientific leadership in the world. Such leadership is a draw to technical expertise from all over the world. Universities gain funding/grants to participate in the build/on-going operation, solving technical solutions, etc., scientists and engineers relocate to participate, businesses start to support, these are all things that blossom for build and ongoing operations.

To the results, what is the benefits of the results gained from NASA? Of the goals, what benefits have been produced? I’d need to do more research. We landed on the moon? Is that beneficial to the populace in any way?

Is proving the Higgs boson any benefit? There was a time when human flight and electricity were theoretical—dreams. Such endeavors required funding that can only be provided at the government level. Who knows what this will spawn. The scientists involved have some idea. Immediate benefits? More likely longterm benefits.


34 posted on 11/02/2012 1:22:02 PM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: SgtHooper
Quite possibly not. Do you consider it a self-evident truth that funding NASA was a conservative policy?

Hmmm, not sure how you made the leap to that notion.

I didn't leap to anything - I asked a question.

My point was that if you apply your reasoning to NASA and its moon landing, satellites throughout solar system and beyond, Hubble, etc., you fail to appreciate the value of such big science. Yes, yes, take the 20-30 bln funding each year and just give it to the poor,

I've got a better idea: leave it in the pockets of those to whom it rightfully belongs.

but that solves nothing.

The benefits include not only jobs (which I abhor such projects merely for jobs), but also to retain scientific leadership in the world. Such leadership is a draw to technical expertise from all over the world. Universities gain funding/grants to participate in the build/on-going operation, solving technical solutions, etc., scientists and engineers relocate to participate, businesses start to support, these are all things that blossom for build and ongoing operations.

This overlooks the benefits that would have come from that money had it remained in the private sector.

To the results, what is the benefits of the results gained from NASA? Of the goals, what benefits have been produced? I’d need to do more research. We landed on the moon? Is that beneficial to the populace in any way?

Not that I can see.

Is proving the Higgs boson any benefit?

Not that I can see.

There was a time when human flight and electricity were theoretical—dreams. Such endeavors required funding that can only be provided at the government level.

That it WAS provided by government doesn't prove it could ONLY be provided by government.

Who knows what this will spawn. The scientists involved have some idea.

I'd love to hear them.

Immediate benefits? More likely longterm benefits.

In my view, most likely no practical benefits.

35 posted on 11/02/2012 2:17:24 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

Okay, now I know here you are coming from.

The conservative comment is irrelevant to anything.

I don’t believe that most everything can be solved by private enterprise. Restated, I do not believe that private enterprise will endeavor on such large projects with little chance of an immediate and forseeable profitable return. Yes, that can be a good constraint and should perhaps be applied to many government projects. National defence? Nuclear defence? Private? No way. Security, materials, etc., are all major issues. Uncle Sugar needs to take the lead on some major stuff. (BTW, all information/data derived from the Collider funding was free to the public. I don’t agree with that, but it was.)

The money left in the private sector? It’s in the noise band.

Government provided? True, but no private investors would sink enormous amounts of money into such a thing (collider, NASA). Even now. Where the govey opens the door to such tech, privates usually follow for spinoff profits.

Look, you and I have divergent thoughts on this. While I agree that government should stay out of most endeavors, there is a benefit to doing such big projects, provided the costs/contractors are controlled within reason. Yeh, I know, subjective as hell. Examples of projects gone bad, General Dynamics or Martin Marietta on ANY project-continual cost overruns and delays. GD was a prime on the SSCL, and we all cringed, when GE was the better choice for magnet production.

The pros and cons are all out there for you to find and review. I am not going to serve this up to you.

I believe there is a benefit to moon landings, Mars landings, flybys of planets, etc., looking at the stars, etc., particle colliders, which can only be handled by huge non-private funding sources. Not everything can be solved in the private sector.


36 posted on 11/02/2012 3:02:41 PM PDT by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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