Posted on 10/31/2012 7:49:42 AM PDT by fishtank
Article at link.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Folks have tried to turn the tunnels into mushroom farms, and a few other schemes, but none have worked. At least they used their money. Now the plastics company is making use of the buildings.
It sounds like I live just west of you in Midlo.
We lived in DeSoto, but I went into IP law and now live in OH. You recall correctly. Funds went directly over to CERN and funding increased to FermiLab and other US labs.
60 Minutes came to the SSCL with an agenda to destroy it by exposing all sorts of “misspending”, which even back then was totally blown out of proportion. We were supposedly wasting millions on “artwork, plants” and alcohol-fueled parties. Yes, money was spent on pictures for walls and plants to make the office environment more suitable. These types of expenditures were normal in any government-funded operation. We DID surprise me, coming from a major company who did contract work for nuclear weapons labs, was that when major milestones were reached, the Lab did spend some money on wine, beer and finger food to celebrate, but this usually was nominal, say $1,000 or less. BUT, where I came from, we NEVER did this. So that served as a major point to publicize.
The 40 Bln number is BS. When it crashed, the funding to build was projected at about 10 Bln, which was much more than 4 Bln in a previous estimate, which was more than 1 Bln from an even more previous estimate. The physickers are not good money ppl, so the steady increase in projected funding caught the eye of many. But it was stablizing around the 10-11 Bln mark to build. I forget the projected annual maintenance costs, but it had to be much less.
It was a great bunch of ppl from all walks of life, local and from far away, all sorts of nationalities, etc. Locals who had lived for years and generations on farms and homes on the ground surface above where the collider ring was to be constructed were bought out (forcefully), uprooted, and moved. Many homes were picked up and moved to large “parking lots”. Others were simply leveled. 52 miles of this, which was largely open area, but still, ppl were packed up and moved out, for nothing. How’s that for getting a good taste of government BS.
The US government is probably the worst "business partner" you can have. They pull the plug on things when they are almost done, not just partially completed like the SSC. A number of people I know were canned when Clinton (Hillary) killed the IFR at Idaho Lab. Others I knew at LANL got the ax when Clinton killed the nuclear weapons program.
"Uncaring"?! Spare me your bleeding-heart blubbering.
to spend a pitance on keeping the USA as a scientific leader.
Real conservatives are unwilling to spend a penny of SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY on anything other than the defense of individual liberties. You want to keep the USA as a scientific leader, make a voluntary contribution.
What benefits?
All along the way from construction (big bore) to system designs for cryogenics on never-before built large rings, superconducting materials and testing, build of specialty SC magnets, super large detectors for never-before ring energies, the computing systems that were being developed to anaylze the sensor data, SC cable winding machines, presses, cable testing machines, engineering for massive 10k and 15k amp dc power supplies, radiation detection and anlysis, and on and on. All designed first-time machines. And this is only for construction and setup.
When operating on daily basis, who knows. What is learned/benefits of FermiLab, CERN, etc. The main benefit is to find the Higgs boson, and then to begin put the pieces back together in desired ways for the desired purposes - drugs, materials, etc. This is/was the centrol goal in this big science. Spinoff tech is a big part of it as well. It is the unknown part, but invariably happens in such projects.
Heh! I just bought my Son a shirt with the Black Mesa symbol on it..
What benefits?
All along the way from construction (big bore) to system designs for cryogenics on never-before built large rings, superconducting materials and testing, build of specialty SC magnets, super large detectors for never-before ring energies, the computing systems that were being developed to anaylze the sensor data, SC cable winding machines, presses, cable testing machines, engineering for massive 10k and 15k amp dc power supplies, radiation detection and anlysis, and on and on. All designed first-time machines. And this is only for construction and setup.
Sounds like fun - but I fail to see the "benefits" (that the public should care about, anyway) in construction (big bore), never-before built large rings, specialty SC magnets, super large detectors for never-before ring energies, or radiation detection and analysis.
There are probably a few genuine public benefits in your list - but none that couldn't be accomplished less expensively (and none that are within the feds' Constitutional mandate, not that you claimed they were).
When operating on daily basis, who knows. What is learned/benefits of FermiLab, CERN, etc. The main benefit is to find the Higgs boson,
No direct public benefit there.
and then to begin put the pieces back together in desired ways for the desired purposes - drugs, materials, etc.
Are you claiming that finding the Higgs boson will advance drugs, materials, etc? I find that extremely hard to believe since the Higgs boson is a mechanism to resolve theoretical contradictions between already-known facts (nonzero fermion and weak boson masses on the one hand, and electroweak gauge symmetry on the other).
Were/are there any benefits from NASA? With your line of reasoning, that should never have been funded.
bttt
Hmmm, not sure how you made the leap to that notion. My point was that if you apply your reasoning to NASA and its moon landing, satellites throughout solar system and beyond, Hubble, etc., you fail to appreciate the value of such big science. Yes, yes, take the 20-30 bln funding each year and just give it to the poor, but that solves nothing.
The benefits include not only jobs (which I abhor such projects merely for jobs), but also to retain scientific leadership in the world. Such leadership is a draw to technical expertise from all over the world. Universities gain funding/grants to participate in the build/on-going operation, solving technical solutions, etc., scientists and engineers relocate to participate, businesses start to support, these are all things that blossom for build and ongoing operations.
To the results, what is the benefits of the results gained from NASA? Of the goals, what benefits have been produced? I’d need to do more research. We landed on the moon? Is that beneficial to the populace in any way?
Is proving the Higgs boson any benefit? There was a time when human flight and electricity were theoretical—dreams. Such endeavors required funding that can only be provided at the government level. Who knows what this will spawn. The scientists involved have some idea. Immediate benefits? More likely longterm benefits.
Hmmm, not sure how you made the leap to that notion.
I didn't leap to anything - I asked a question.
My point was that if you apply your reasoning to NASA and its moon landing, satellites throughout solar system and beyond, Hubble, etc., you fail to appreciate the value of such big science. Yes, yes, take the 20-30 bln funding each year and just give it to the poor,
I've got a better idea: leave it in the pockets of those to whom it rightfully belongs.
but that solves nothing.
The benefits include not only jobs (which I abhor such projects merely for jobs), but also to retain scientific leadership in the world. Such leadership is a draw to technical expertise from all over the world. Universities gain funding/grants to participate in the build/on-going operation, solving technical solutions, etc., scientists and engineers relocate to participate, businesses start to support, these are all things that blossom for build and ongoing operations.
This overlooks the benefits that would have come from that money had it remained in the private sector.
To the results, what is the benefits of the results gained from NASA? Of the goals, what benefits have been produced? I’d need to do more research. We landed on the moon? Is that beneficial to the populace in any way?
Not that I can see.
Is proving the Higgs boson any benefit?
Not that I can see.
There was a time when human flight and electricity were theoretical—dreams. Such endeavors required funding that can only be provided at the government level.
That it WAS provided by government doesn't prove it could ONLY be provided by government.
Who knows what this will spawn. The scientists involved have some idea.
I'd love to hear them.
Immediate benefits? More likely longterm benefits.
In my view, most likely no practical benefits.
Okay, now I know here you are coming from.
The conservative comment is irrelevant to anything.
I don’t believe that most everything can be solved by private enterprise. Restated, I do not believe that private enterprise will endeavor on such large projects with little chance of an immediate and forseeable profitable return. Yes, that can be a good constraint and should perhaps be applied to many government projects. National defence? Nuclear defence? Private? No way. Security, materials, etc., are all major issues. Uncle Sugar needs to take the lead on some major stuff. (BTW, all information/data derived from the Collider funding was free to the public. I don’t agree with that, but it was.)
The money left in the private sector? It’s in the noise band.
Government provided? True, but no private investors would sink enormous amounts of money into such a thing (collider, NASA). Even now. Where the govey opens the door to such tech, privates usually follow for spinoff profits.
Look, you and I have divergent thoughts on this. While I agree that government should stay out of most endeavors, there is a benefit to doing such big projects, provided the costs/contractors are controlled within reason. Yeh, I know, subjective as hell. Examples of projects gone bad, General Dynamics or Martin Marietta on ANY project-continual cost overruns and delays. GD was a prime on the SSCL, and we all cringed, when GE was the better choice for magnet production.
The pros and cons are all out there for you to find and review. I am not going to serve this up to you.
I believe there is a benefit to moon landings, Mars landings, flybys of planets, etc., looking at the stars, etc., particle colliders, which can only be handled by huge non-private funding sources. Not everything can be solved in the private sector.
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