Posted on 11/08/2012 6:25:55 AM PST by M. Dodge Thomas
Reading the last two days discussion of what happened Tuesday, IMO there is one line of argument that needs to be abandoned because it's both incorrect and counterproductive:
"They stole it".
The problem with the "vote fraud" theory is that that convincing evidence that it's not correct; for example the actual results were very close to the aggregate polling predictions in the last weeks before the election, see for example:
http://election.princeton.edu/2012/11/07/after-the-storm/
For that to happen you would not only have to rig not only the election but also both the national and state level polling in such a way that the polls and final results would line up.
And the only way to do that massive conspiracy between polling organizations in fifty different states, which was somehow conducted without any evidence of it coming to light... and which operated almost perfectly each of the last three election cycles.
And the problem with believing that this sort of massive and perfectly conducted conspiracy is the problem, is that if prevents you from looking at the actual problem.
Which is that current Republican party can't sell the current conservative program as presented in the party platform and by the candidates to a majority of voters in the states with the EV total needed to win a presidential election - not even near the bottom of a deep recession when you opponent has may obvious flaws.
A national political party or movement in such a position may or may not be able and/or willing to do what's needed to change such a result.
But if you admit you have a problem, you have the potential to change something that might change your results.
But as long as your explanation for your poor results is "they stole it" - in the face of very convincing evidence from the aggregate polling that this did not happen - all you can do is stand around hoping the other guy screws up worst than you do, or that circumstances change to your advantage for reasons beyond their control, or both.
Which is hope, not a program.
I agree the GOP fell flat in GOTV - again. They got out-hustled in key swing states. But don't pretend that fraud is a signficant part of urban Dem voting percentages.
But dude... they did steal it. My advice is to speak the truth to evil.
LLS
And then there is this:
Oops, last sentence should be: But don’t pretend that fraud is NOT a signficant part of urban Dem voting percentages.
In Florida and Ohio, 5% of voters only voted for President (did not vote for Senator). In Va and PA, it was almost even. The FL senate race was not tight but the VA race was tight. The Dem was behind for much of the night.
That tells me there was some last minute ballot stuffing.
Absolutely - This election was flat-out STOLEN by devious manipulation of the voting results. Will the Pubbies have the guts to bring this up?
We will not win the top spot ever again unless this fraud is dealt with.
The dems must laugh their butts off knowing that no matter what we do like having a major interparty war and blame game, that it is still who counts and games the vote that is most important.
There are so many hopeless dead issues that lead to the disaster. Move on, fight the fraud, start the Tea Party and maybe along the way we can impeach the impostor and get a real American president.
uh, no they won’t.
Well, Allen West will.
NO. Well, er, yes.. we probably should abandon the issue, if only temporarily from a strategic perspective. BUT, while counterproductive, it IS CORRECT.
It's been correct starting from the day that the property-owner-ONLY vote was taken away, well over a hundred years ago. And since then, it's just the matter of degree. By giving non-property-owners votes, it just enables the Franklin maxim about being a republic up until the day that the public realizes they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.
I will say this about Franklin - he was slightly wrong about his grammar. It's not like a switch gets turned once the public figures this out. No, it's a steady progression, from the day that the taxpayer property-owner vote started to be watered down. The only real change is the point at which it is realized. It's another issue for discussion as to if that realization point is before or after the point at which anything short of civil war can be done about it.
That story is satire. How embarrassing.
Vote fraud is not only illegal, it is also dishonest and immoral. It is not to be tolerated anywhere, anytime, or by anybody, democrat, Republican, communist, or socialist. It makes not one whit of difference whether or not the vote fraud changes the outcome of an election. It is not to be tolerated, EVER! Neither are the voices who would discourage the apprehension and punishment of those who commit vote fraud.
I’m doubtful that the machines changed over the votes. Although at least in Minnesota, I’m pretty confident a lot of voter fraud happens.
In MN:
1. No photo ID is required.
2. No utility statement is required
3. You may register at the polling place on the day of the election (without ID of course).
Here’s all someone needs to do in Minnesota to vote.
Voter arrive at polling place and ask for a ballot.
Polls worker “I don’t have your name in my list. You’ll have to register here. What is your name, and where do you live?”
Voter “Mickey Mouse. I live at 555 Broad Street.”
Polls worker (talking to 2nd voter) “Will you vouch for him that he is telling the truth?”
2nd Voter. “Yes”
Poll worker “Very well. Here is your ballot”
Voter then votes and gets into van with 10 other voters and goes to 20 other polling places throughout the day.
Think about the intensity these liberals have for their beliefs and the lack moral stature of so many of them. Do you really doubt there’s not at least a thousand in all of Minnesota that do this?
Ohio, I doubt it’s less of fraud, but the early voting basically allows the campaign workers to get a bus and fill it up with every black person the come across and drive them to the polls. I suspect minority voter would probably be a lot less if it were not for early voting.
That’s funny.
However, look at the aggregate polling results (how people said they intended to vote) prior to the election, and the actual vote counts (how they voted).
If there has been fraud on a scale sufficient to change the results, the difference would be clearly apparent.
It's not, and "vote fraud" was not a significant factor in the outcome of the presidential election in any state.
If someone wishes to believe otherwise, that's not a problem.
Unless that belief causes then to expect they can get a different result next time by preventing the fraud that was not the cause of the result this time.
Then, IMO it's a big problem.
Yes..
let go of they stole it..
let go of it was the evangelicals fault..
let go of the it was the catholics fault..
let go of it was the woman vote fault...
let go of the it was the youth, hispanics or blacks fault..
Hell, even let go of the gop-e fault....
18% turnout in the primaries gave us the worst candidate since hoover, and one that can barely qualify as a rino, let alone a centrist moderate.
so, put the blame where it belongs... on the backs of the voters...
I think Pennsylvania is the primary state where vote fraud makes a major difference in statewide election results. But, then again, I am not as familiar with other states. Dems have no qualms about cheating everywhere. The problem is, Romney did not win big enough to make cheating irrelevant. Instead, the opposite happened. McCain/Palin pulled more voters in a bad GOP year than Romney did in a back Dem year. And that was the biggest problem of all - a really crappy candidate that the GOP-e insisted was the best choice.
So, whether all the fraud and tampering that did verifiably happen was enough to change the outcome, I don't know. But it must be punished and stopped!
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