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Explaining the Democrats’ Success
FrontPage Magazine ^ | November 12, 2012 | Bruce Thornton

Posted on 11/12/2012 4:45:33 AM PST by SJackson

The election post-mortem has identified all manner of causes for the Republicans’ defeat, from the “woman problem” and the “Hispanic problem,” as Peggy Noonan put it, to Romney’s fatcat persona and his inept campaign. But there’s a simpler reason, one consistent with the critics of democracy starting in ancient Athens––Obama and the Democrats promised voters more free stuff.

The differences between the political mechanisms of ancient Athens and those of America today do not erase the similarities of mentality and sensibility popular rule creates in its citizens. Most important is the way democracy leads to radical egalitarianism: the belief, as Aristotle put it, “that those who are equal in any respect are equal in all respects; because men are equally free, they claim to be absolutely equal.” Because citizens are equal in their possession of political rights and some level of access to the machinery of the state, they then desire to be equal in every way. Yet everyday experience shows that there exist real differences of talent, ability, beauty, brains, hard work, and sheer luck among people, and these differences account for their varying levels of economic and social success. Hence the desire to use the coercive power of the state to level these differences, especially through the appropriation and redistribution of wealth through government distributed entitlements. The right to equality of opportunity then becomes the right to equality of result, with the power of the state as the instrument of achieving that utopian goal, usually at the expense of freedom.

Traditionally democracies have been faulted precisely for this tendency to use the power of the state to redistribute wealth and so erase the most glaring difference among citizens, that between the rich and the poor. Such policies are also attractive because they serve the shortsighted, personal material interests of the citizens, often at the expense of the state as a whole. As Thucydides’ recreations of debates in the Athenian Assembly during the Peloponnesian War show, decisions of life and death, like the disastrous invasion of Sicily in 415 B.C., were often the result of a selfish calculus of how the individual voting citizen would personally benefit, no matter how dangerous to the future wellbeing of the state such decisions might be. During the 4th century B.C., Athenian citizens could expect even more state pay almost every day of the year. They were paid to serve on juries, attend Assembly meetings, go to the theater, and participate in religious festivals. Even when the threat of Philip II’s aggression against Athens became clear, it was dangerous for any politician to propose transferring money from the fund for paying theater and festival attendance to the military fund. By the time Athenians had realized the danger of Philip’s power, it was too late. The Athenians lost the battle of Chaeronea in 338 B.C., and with it their political freedom and autonomy.

For ambitious politicians, moreover, taking money from some citizens to give it to others was a way to further their careers. Demagogues and would-be tyrants aggrandized power explicitly by promising the masses that they would take from the “rich” and give to the poor. They typically preyed on the class envy and resentment of the latter, as the 4th century B.C. orator Isocrates wrote: “Wherefore these men [demagogues] would be most happy to see all of our citizens reduced to the condition of helplessness in which they themselves are powerful. And the greatest proof of this is that they do not consider by what means they may provide a livelihood for those who are in need, but rather how they may reduce those who are thought to possess some wealth to the level of those who are in poverty.” Or as Obama might put it, “spread the wealth around.”

The 2nd century B.C. historian Polybius famously described the threat to freedom and order that results from an ambitious politician exploiting the selfish interests of the people by promising them the wealth of others: “For the mob,” Polybius writes, “habituated to feed at the expense of others, and to have its hopes of a livelihood in the property of its neighbors, as soon as it has got a leader sufficiently ambitious and daring, being excluded by poverty from the sweets of civil honors, produces a reign of mere violence.” Today, violent revolution is unlikely, not least because it is unnecessary. The expansionary federal government and its hoards of bureaucratic minions have replaced the ruthless tyrants of antiquity, creating the “soft despotism” de Tocqueville warned against. This entitlement leviathan increases its power and reach by giving more and more benefits and services to more and more people, all funded by expropriation of wealth from the productive.

Moreover, modern free-market capitalism and its dynamic of competition have sharpened the differences between “rich” and “poor,” even though by any historical measure those we call “poor” today would have been considered more than comfortable in the past. Yet these disparities of wealth are even more painful for today’s democratic egalitarians, who chafe at what they see as unfair inequality. Hence the appeal of dirigiste or socialistic economic policies, which promise to erase a humiliating “income inequality” and provide the wealth citizens can’t obtain for themselves but that they envy and resent when possessed by others. In addition, as Jean François Revel points out, the suspicion of free-market economies and the lingering affection for socialism “relate to warding off two fears that are present in each of us: the fear of competition and the fear of responsibility. These feelings are not just vague apprehensions; they are dominating anxieties. Membership in a redistributive economy allays these fears and reduces stress. The statist machine promises the psychological comfort of not having to bear the burdens of responsibility for oneself.” Redistribution of wealth, then, provides both material and psychological benefits.

This summary of democracy’s dysfunctions is relevant as well to the decades of our wanton entitlement spending that has accelerated during the last four years. In 2010, government at all levels transferred more than $2.2 trillion in money, goods and services to recipients. Since the 1960s, the government has spent nearly $20 trillion on the War on Poverty. The federal government now runs about 80 programs providing aid to the poor, and government at all levels spends nearly $1 trillion annually to fight poverty. Food stamp spending has doubled during Obama’s first term, reaching $75.7 billion for the fiscal year ending 30 September 2011. From 2007 to 2011, spending on unemployment has nearly quadrupled to $120 billion. And don’t forget the ongoing costs of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which in fiscal year 2011 ate up 43% of the federal budget at a cost of $1.56 trillion. On top of these already existing entitlement programs, Obama spent nearly $1 trillion on a stimulus package that benefitted political clients like state government workers, and another $25 billion on the auto bailout that mostly rewarded yet another political client, the UAW. As for Obamacare, the CBO calculates it will cost about $2 trillion over ten years, and still leave 30 million people without health care. As a result of Obama’s increases in these wealth transfers, federal spending has now reached 24% of GDP.

To pay for all this largesse, the federal leviathan borrows money, as Obama has done to the tune of over $5 trillion. But it also redistributes income through the most progressive tax system among advanced economies. In 2009, the bottom 20% of taxpayers earned approximately 5% of the nation’s income but paid just 0.3 percent of all federal taxes. Households in the middle 20%, which earned almost 14.7% of national income, paid only 9.4% of federal taxes. Americans in the top 20%, earned 51% of the nation’s income, but paid 67.9% of all federal taxes. As for the evil 1%, they earned 13.4% of all income and paid 28.9% of all federal taxes. As a result, nearly half of all taxpayers contribute next to nothing to the costs of funding the government’s entitlements.

Another way to see how the tax system redistributes wealth, consider how much each group receives in federal spending compared to how much they pay. According to the Tax Foundation, households in the lowest 20% of income received roughly $8.21 in federal, state and local government spending for every dollar of taxes paid in 2004, households in the middle 20% received $1.30, and households in the top 20% received $0.41. In other words, tax payments exceeded government spending for the top 40%, meaning there was a net fiscal transfer of between $1.031 trillion and $1.527 trillion from one group of taxpayers to another. If this isn’t income redistribution from the “rich” to the “poor,” nothing is.

But like an ancient demagogue haranguing the Athenian Assembly, during the campaign Obama demonized Mitt Romney as the heartless tool of the rich who cared nothing for ordinary Americans, a plutocrat itching to cut programs for the poor, sick, and disabled, and shutter factories to send jobs to China, all so he could cut taxes and increase profits for the “millionaires and billionaires.” And Obama promised even more government booty, now disguised as “investments” to be paid for by appropriating even more money from those same greedy plutocrats. It was class-warfare at its nastiest, and it worked. Indeed, according to Jay Cost, it worked with the “lower-to-middle class, socially conservative whites” almost 10 million of whom, Cost calculates, stayed home because Obama had turned Romney into a super-rich “other” alien to the experience of the struggling masses.

Of course, people voted for reasons other than economic self-interest and the promise of more benefits to come. But thousands of attack ads turning Romney into the Grinch who wanted to steal the perpetual Christmas of entitlements paid for with other people’s money, along with the promise to make the “millionaires and billionaires” pay their “fair share,” were enough to make millions of voters ignore Obama’s manifest economic malfeasance, even as fiscal disaster looms ever closer. The ancient critics of Athenian democracy wouldn’t be surprised.


TOPICS: Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: bho2012; blame; romney2012

1 posted on 11/12/2012 4:45:38 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson

fraud is their success and tampered machines


2 posted on 11/12/2012 4:53:45 AM PST by dalebert
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To: SJackson
in three words:

CHEATING
LYING
OBSTRUCTION


3 posted on 11/12/2012 4:55:01 AM PST by Diogenesis (Vi veri veniversum vivus vici)
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To: SJackson

Dumbed down Americans, perfectly exemplified by the Blaze video of Boston university students who voted for Obama but didn’t know how many senators came from each state, know no history, so they are cursed to repeat it.

What can the productive do? Starve the beast. Downsize your income and consider the next four years as a siege. The Democrats are counting on the economy coming back in the next 18 months, just in time for ObamaCare to kick in. We’ll see.


4 posted on 11/12/2012 4:56:06 AM PST by txrefugee
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To: SJackson

Republicans do not have a woman problem.

Women have the problem

They vote-——————————————stupidly.


5 posted on 11/12/2012 4:56:10 AM PST by Venturer
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To: SJackson



Sign the petition for a recount:

http://www.petition2congress.com/8222/petition-recount-on-2012-presidential-election/

Visit this site. They are keeping a running account of cases of voter fraud and what to do about it:

http://www.ObamaVoterFraud.com/






____________________________________________


Photo of Ethiopians brought to Ohio voting stations by busload, 95% of whom did not speak English, and told to vote for Obama, straight Dem ticket

https://www.facebook.com/lori.patriot/posts/404694619604138



Must watch videos!


VIDEO-- Programmer Testifies About Rigging Elections With Vote Counting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Hbf3iaEbAuY



VIDEO- Illegal Aliens Caught Voting and Stealing Elections In Florida In Vast Numbers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ILJDudUpct0



VIDEO- Michael Savage: How Obama fixed the 2012 election: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dmJtaOO2etc



VIDEO- Massive voter fraud discovered in April:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ILJDudUpct0



VIDEO- Whistle blower speaks out about voter fraud: http://www.youtube.com/watch? feature=player_embedded&v=k_rMpQKqZhM





___________________________________________________


We can not wait for 2014 and 2016 to regroup and figure out new strategies. By then it will be too late. The Marxist/Muslim usurper will have completed his planned distruction of America. That's what people fail to understand.

We must act NOW.

Start with the election. If we let the Rats get away with this massive voter fraud, we're no better than a bananna republic.

We must keep digging and pounding him every day, in every way we can- phony birth certificate, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, his hidden life, records....

We are FReepers. We must fight!

Those who shrug and accept this atrocity without a fight are not worthy to be called Freepers!




6 posted on 11/12/2012 5:03:58 AM PST by patriot08
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To: All

.

.
Sign the petition for a recount:
http://www.petition2congress.com/8222/petition-recount-on-2012-presidential-election/

.

Visit this site.
http://www.ObamaVoterFraud.com/

They are keeping a running account of cases of voter fraud and what to do about it:
http://www.ObamaVoterFraud.com/

.

SATURDAY UPDATES (Thurs and Fri fraud at site)

Military service members purged from voter rolls in Florida...
http://redflagnews.com/military-service-members-purged-from-voter-rolls-in-florida

Pundit Press: In Florida: Obama Got Over 99% in Broward County Precincts
http://www.punditpress.com/2012/11/in-florida-obama-got-over-99-in-broward.html?spref=fb

TRR: Allen West Seeks Recount Amid Growing Vote Count Scandal
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/robbins-report/2012/nov/9/allen-west-asks-recount-amid-growing-vote-count-sc/

[This is the same St. Lucie that has 141.1% voter turnout affecting both Romney and West...]

St. Lucie County - 84 juridictions, 83 of them had 121-166% turn out
http://www.slcelections.com/Pdf%20Docs/2012%20General/GEMS%20SOVC%20REPORT.pdf

Nevada Unions Are Regestering Illegals and Forcing Them to Vote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMGd50sZG4g&feature=share

The video suggests that this method was the only way Harry Reid was able to defeat challenger Sharon Angle in 2010 to retain his Senate seat and continues to be used.

via Jewel on Facebook: “Could you please help us? There is a petition for a recount and it takes 28,000 signatures. We are all promoting it and would love to have you on our side. The link to sign the petition is:”
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpetitions.whitehouse.gov%2Fpetition%2Frecount-election%2FZQmy0Mlv%23thank-you%3Dp&h=4AQEgo5BK

Another petition, this one to Congress:
http://www.petition2congress.com/8222/petition-recount-on-2012-presidential-election/

You can also request that Reince Preibus of the GOP start a swing state recount based on information available at this website and as part of ORCA (Thanks Shirley!):
http://www.gop.com/contact-us/

I’ve added links to all three petitions to the sidebar at the top of this page and expect to add more.

Voter Fraud by the numbers? Absolutely
http://www.altadenagroup.com/CSIA/post_details.asp?p_ID=10774

Thank you to everyone who is sharing this page! As of Saturday morning, we are getting about 3,000 visitors an hour. You are making a difference!

SUNDAY UPDATES

This one is MUST SEE:

“Obama won 100% of the 900,135 votes cast in Cuyahoga County OH! No votes from new registered voters or indies went to Mitt. Voting officials SHOULD BE ARRESTED BY OUR MILITARY FOR SEDITION & PERPETRATING A FRAUD AGAINST ALL OF AMERICA. A CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT WILL BE FILED against the networks for not telling the truth! view pic.”
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3474982207064&set=a.1633846179814.70439.1646473511&type=1&theater

Summary Photo
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534531_3474982207064_881171232_n.jpg

Throw out this all-fraud county and Mitt wins Ohio, no question!

Why? A total of 5,364,324 “people” voted in Ohio. Obama got 2,691,861 votes, while Romney got 2,584,620, a difference of 107,241 votes.

How did Cuyahoga County’s 900,135 votes affect the final result? You do the math.

For Ohio to certify this result would be a crime in and of itself.

Thank you to the Examiner for mentioning us!

Citing voter fraud, petition at White House web site demands recount of election
http://www.examiner.com/article/citing-voter-fraud-petition-at-white-house-web-site-demands-recount-of-election

Thanks also to The Competent Conservative for quoting us in entirety!

Is There Enough Evidence of Voter Fraud To Merit a Recount?
http://thecompetentconservative.com/is-there-enough-evidence-of-voter-fraud-to-merit-a-recount/

Much more to come! As one of our commenters below said, voter fraud is like cockroaches. You find one and they are likely everywhere. Cuyahoga County, Ohio is obviously not alone!

Here is a petition you can sign at Change.org to request a full recount. I suggest we just focus on the swing states, but it is true that many Congressional and Senate races are also affected, from Allen West to, I believe, Mia Love. Mia was up by 10% the week before the election and lost by 3,000 votes to Matheson in a state that went 73% for Romney. Not likely!

http://www.change.org/petitions/united-states-federal-election-commission-we-demand-a-full-recount-of-the-2012-presidential-election

Military votes not counted?
http://nera.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=191%3Amilitary-ballots-not-counted&catid=81%3Ablog1&Itemid=148

The Columbus Dispatch reports, “Voter rolls in Ohio are bloated, experts say”
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/09/16/voter-rolls-in-ohio-are-bloated-experts-say.html

An update on St. Lucie County, Florida:
http://watchdogwire.com/florida/2012/11/10/update-massive-voter-fraud-in-st-lucie-county-florida-called-into-question-141-turnout/

Video: More fraud from Florida, including kicking out an elderly poll observer doing his job using the police:
http://www.bizpacreview.com/elections-supervisor-calls-police-to-kick-elderly-allen-west-ballot-observer-out/

Townhall blogger Rachel Alexander reports:

Obama Likely Won Re-Election Through Election Fraud
http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2012/11/11/obama_likely_won_reelection_through_election_fraud

The Washington Times: Florida Vote Twist: More Ballots Than Voters
http://m.washingtontimes.com/blog/robbins-report/2012/nov/10/florida-vote-twist-more-ballots-voters/

Here is a link to Allen West’s press release on the voter fraud situation in Florida:
http://bit.ly/TCYnUe

Newsmax reports: Voter Fraud Charges Begin in Ohio

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Ohio-voter-registration-fraud/2012/11/03/id/462674

Darin Southam recommends TrueTheVote.org for some pre-election indications of potential voter fraud, but the page understates what actually happened in pretty much every swing state.
http://www.truethevote.org/news/how-widespread-is-voter-fraud-2012-facts-figures

And what do you think of this? This was way before the election, but apparently George Soros, who we have already established rigged an election in Hungary and was banned for it AND helped get Obama elected the first time... I’ll let you read the headline:

“Soros advises Obama to use forceful measures to override the will of the people”
http://redwhitebluenews.com/?p=12336

I think this goes well beyond the 900+ executive orders that go around Congress, more than three times the executive orders given by all previous US Presidents combined. We saw it in action Tuesday, November 6th!

A Tea Party group has posted this article, with interesting stats and some criticism for Romney for not standing up and doing something about it yet:
http://teapartyorg.ning.com/m/discussion?id=4301673%3ATopic%3A1108645

Personally I think as the case is strong enough, Mitt will do something. Too much is at stake, and as we just found out, Ohio is definitely Mitt’s, and Florida, too, just based on fraud in a few counties! Colorado, too!

Keep up the referrals and the sharing, everyone! Thank you SO much for helping America fix an election that has clearly been “fixed.”

Voter fraud cheapens the votes of the 60 million who picked Mitt to the point of nothingness and gives weight to those who in reality were the minority. If grand theft is defined as any theft over $5,000, what do you call the ONE BILLION times that that is likely to happen AGAIN over the next four years if we do not right this wrong?

Here is to our real President Elect and First Lady, Mitt and Ann Romney.

Posted by Jed M. Merrill at 1:56 PM 68 comments:


7 posted on 11/12/2012 5:04:37 AM PST by patriot08
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To: SJackson

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

— Exodus 20:17 (NIV)


8 posted on 11/12/2012 5:05:09 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: Diogenesis

don’t forget, the promise of “free stuff”.

That was the biggest winner for the ‘rats.

They know it, too, that’s why they’re getting so upset at Rush for pointing it out.

They need to be constantly reminded that they are thieves and freeloaders.


9 posted on 11/12/2012 5:06:11 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: SJackson
I short, in democracy, what we are experiencing is inevitable. Takers always outnumber makers, and when the takers are politically empowered, the politicians adopt the short-sighted demands of the takers. History repeats.

It's a win for the politicians, as they are in the cohort of the elite.

Who knows how history will record the demise of the constitutional experiment. I hope the likes of Bush, Boehner, McConnell, et al are labeled as enablers of the demise.

10 posted on 11/12/2012 5:14:14 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: patriot08

Im going to repeat this again: the main reason Obama won was the borrowing of 5 trillion dollars to help keep parts of the electorate happy. Any administration spending that kind of money was always going to be difficult to beat. Let’s see how successful the Dems are when they can no longer borrow all this money. That day will come sometime in the future.


11 posted on 11/12/2012 5:20:01 AM PST by Scottishlibertarian
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To: SJackson
Good morning.

I was told by a democRAT official that they go to the precinct each day to see who (democRAT) has voted. Those that haven't voted are then contacted, and bussed to the polls. That's one of the reasons the Rats love early voting.

5.56mm

12 posted on 11/12/2012 5:20:14 AM PST by M Kehoe
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To: Scottishlibertarian

Then you discount all the instances of voter fraud pin
pointed by ‘Obama Fraud 2012’?http://www.ObamaVoterFraud.com/

You think we should just bend over and except this?

You don’t think all this should be investigated in order to clean up the election process?

If we let this election with massive voter fraud slid, then we are no better than a banana republic.


13 posted on 11/12/2012 5:38:59 AM PST by patriot08
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To: M Kehoe
That's one of the reasons the Rats love early voting.

Exactly. STOP the early voting! You should have to personally get your keister to the polls and vote on election day. It would go a long way towards preventing the repeat voters from having the luxury of a week to visit the various polling places.

14 posted on 11/12/2012 5:53:55 AM PST by MamaTexan (In Propria Persona)
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To: MrB

don’t forget, the promise of “free stuff”.

That was the biggest winner for the ‘rats.

They know it, too, that’s why they’re getting so upset at Rush for pointing it out.

They need to be constantly reminded that they are thieves and freeloaders.


Makers vs Takers. Say it loud and often

Thinkers vs Non Thinkers...... Repeat it proudly


15 posted on 11/12/2012 6:00:51 AM PST by patriotspride
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To: SJackson

How Soros fixed the election

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFCococnHQo&feature=player_embedded


16 posted on 11/12/2012 6:15:41 AM PST by patriot08
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To: patriot08

Consider the ballot box of liberty to be closed.
Going Galt is simply a cold civil war.


17 posted on 11/12/2012 6:19:58 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

The author didn’t need all those words to tell me how Obama won, it could have been accomplished with one word. “CHEAT”


18 posted on 11/12/2012 6:39:10 AM PST by DaveA37
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To: SJackson

ONE; The left has many lies about the right and they repeat those lies over and over and over and the right almost never challenges those lies.
TWO; The left cheats with their voting inciting many people to commit felonies in order to win an election.
THREE; The left insists they will protect your rights while behind closed doors doing everything they can to take your rights away.

Then the one who is best at all three is elected President.


19 posted on 11/12/2012 6:43:51 AM PST by W. W. SMITH ((Yuri Bezmenov (KGB Defector) - "Kick The Communists Out of Your Govt. & Don't Accept Their Goodies.)
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To: SJackson

I can explain it in four words: Promise people “free” stuff.


20 posted on 11/12/2012 6:44:47 AM PST by La Lydia
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To: Venturer

“Republicans do not have a woman problem.

Women have the problem”

hich forwards the problems of the country!
PS: Peggy Noonan is part of the problem.Please let her ....RIP. Her 5 minutes of fame ended DECADES ago!


21 posted on 11/12/2012 6:49:34 AM PST by aumrl (let's keep it real Conservatives)
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To: Cboldt

“In short, in democracy, what we are experiencing is inevitable. Takers always outnumber makers, and when the takers are politically empowered, the politicians adopt the short-sighted demands of the takers. History repeats.”

The punctuation marks in that history is the citizens hanging large numbers of the politically empowered takers and their politicians. Is it not apparent that history is little studied?


22 posted on 11/12/2012 6:54:06 AM PST by W. W. SMITH ((Yuri Bezmenov (KGB Defector) - "Kick The Communists Out of Your Govt. & Don't Accept Their Goodies.)
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To: SJackson
We all need to participate in a capital strike. I will do everything in my power to not send a dime to DC. Some cannot as they have a 40 hour work week, until Obamacare kicks in, so cannot control taxes being taken from them but those of us self employed or retired, keep your potential tax money local.

Buy a rental and fix it up with your tax money, new roof, new paint anything to use the money locally so there is none for DC. I have a rental with a mortgage held by a local bank in this small town. We are not going to pay off that mortgage as the $7,000 in yearly interest we pay goes to a local bank with local fellow citizens (employees) getting that money not DC. Starve the beast, hasten its demise.

23 posted on 11/12/2012 7:34:59 AM PST by thirst4truth (www.Believer.com)
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To: SJackson






SARAH PALIN speaks out of massive Obama machine voter fraud:

Sarah Palin News ‏@SarahPalinLinks Between suppression of the military vote and voter fraud, Obama stole another election. http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/46302 …DEMAND A RECOUNT! #VoterFraud

Sarah Palin News ‏@SarahPalinLinks People need to stop pointing fingers within the GOP and investigate the Dems' massive voter fraud and suppression of the military vote.

Expand








24 posted on 11/12/2012 11:51:55 AM PST by patriot08
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