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Should Texas be allowed to secede from the union?
CNN ^ | November 14th, 2012 | Jack Cafferty

Posted on 11/15/2012 9:42:16 AM PST by Pfesser

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To: PGR88
Problem is - and Independent Texas will have enemies on two sides Mexico on the South, and the Federales on the North.

You must not know Texans very well if you think that's a problem.

101 posted on 11/15/2012 11:53:30 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: grobdriver

Amen!!!


102 posted on 11/15/2012 11:54:53 AM PST by tayper (Granny told me, Saying it don't make it so)
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To: Tau Food
Texans love the NFL and Texans love America.

Ah, but Texans love Texas even more.

103 posted on 11/15/2012 11:55:33 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: humblegunner
"If we decide to go, we should just go and screw getting "permission""

True that.

Seconded.

104 posted on 11/15/2012 11:57:24 AM PST by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Pfesser

I can’t see any governor, Republican or Democrat, going along with secession of their state. They don’t want to lose those federal funds that they get. I wouldn’t sign a petition, but I would love to see it happen.


105 posted on 11/15/2012 11:58:09 AM PST by murron (Proud Mom of a Marine Vet)
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To: napscoordinator
Well I think if we went to the extreme of secession, we wouldn't worry about the Fed's claim to a few acres of land.
If Obama decided to send the military in to "liberate" Texas military bases, I guess that'd get the ball rolling - and it would be an expensive decision in both men and equipment.

I don't know how it would work, either. Guess we wouldn't know until we tried. If we did, though, I'd be right there on the line with a bunch of other Texans, many of them Hispanic.

106 posted on 11/15/2012 11:58:45 AM PST by grobdriver
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To: Pfesser

If Texas secedes, who gets to keep any nuclear weapons that may be stored in Texas?


107 posted on 11/15/2012 12:02:04 PM PST by wideminded
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To: Pfesser; All

” - - - Supporters suggest that secession would protect Texans’ standard of living and “re-secure their rights and liberties.” - - - “

DUH! OF COURSE! And your point is?

BTW, there are only two Economies in the Western World that are now improving: 1.) Ireland and 2.) TEXAS!


108 posted on 11/15/2012 12:07:25 PM PST by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: Pfesser
One of our "greatest" (cough cough) presidents took care of that pesky Constitutional problem a long time ago.

Don't get me started....

FMCDH(BITS)

109 posted on 11/15/2012 12:12:03 PM PST by nothingnew (I fear for my Republic due to marxist influence in our government. Open eyes/see)
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To: Pfesser

The constitution had been breached by Obama Care mandating individuals and businesses to pay a tax. What more permission do we need?


110 posted on 11/15/2012 12:13:05 PM PST by the_boy_who_got_lost
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
"although the poverty in Mississippi would potentially be a drag on the new nation."

If multiple States secede from the U.S. and form a new association, they will not collectively constitute a new Nation. Each of the States is already a sovereign Nation unto itself.

The word State is synonymous with Nation. There is a reason they are not called something like "provinces".

The Pledge of Allegiance reference to "one nation [under God] indivisible" was put there as propaganda. It was a post-Lincoln concept.

111 posted on 11/15/2012 12:24:58 PM PST by UnwashedPeasant
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To: Pfesser

Hell yeah! Especially if they let me immigrate and they deport the liberals!


112 posted on 11/15/2012 12:25:24 PM PST by old school
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To: grumpygresh
"If Texas goes blue because of US amnesty, this opportunity for liberty will have been lost forever."

Obama's "Emancipation Proclamation" can be an executive order giving citizenship to illegals. He likes to compare himself to Lincoln, remember.

113 posted on 11/15/2012 12:37:33 PM PST by UnwashedPeasant
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To: UnwashedPeasant

You’re correct, thanks for highlighting that.


114 posted on 11/15/2012 12:48:24 PM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12)
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To: Pfesser

“Allowed”? It is their choice, not ours. The question whomever posted the original question is actually asking is: “Should we force Texas to stay in the union?”


115 posted on 11/15/2012 1:13:18 PM PST by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
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To: Tau Food
"Texans love the NFL and Texans love America. They're not going anywhere."

They love America, which is a people and an ideal expressed in our founding principles. That will not change. Texans do not love the Nation-State-like government entity that many people mistake for America.

Texans will be more American after secession than they are now. Remember, the Founding Fathers did not see America or the union as a single State. The Declaration says, for example, "these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States." Plural.

116 posted on 11/15/2012 1:31:54 PM PST by UnwashedPeasant
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To: UnwashedPeasant
The Declaration says, for example, "these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States." Plural.

Yeah, that's what the Declaration said in 1776. However, they then formed a confederation (Articles of Confederation). Then, in 1789, the people of the United States formed a new national government and a "more perfect Union" with a new Constitution.

117 posted on 11/15/2012 1:46:43 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Quickgun
So Texans tolerated illegals? How was that better than the current system? (I am not being facetious, BTW). It seems from what I read that the border agents were fairly active in seeking out illegals (in the 50s anyways) but many ranchers helped hide them. What changed?
118 posted on 11/15/2012 1:50:49 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: bgill
From what I understand is he got campaign contributions from Merk and then tried to force Gardisil vaccination on Texas’ young girls.
119 posted on 11/15/2012 1:53:30 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: DoughtyOne

Secession will end up being the ONLY answer if anyone wishes to keep what is left of their liberty and their lives from the tyranny of the Obama regime.

It will either be that - or submission to this regime being the god of their lives in order to live and survive. Recall that in all Marxist governments, those who do not serve the ideology and regime they are slaves to - live on borrowed time.

As to the ideology of Conservatism being sold to a II Timothy 3 Generation - some of the numbers of this past election bear that the ideals of conservatism are rejected by this people.

Should be no surprise considering this people in the majority have rejected God and have been busy removing him from their lives and this nation while those who claim to follow Him have become lukewarm, having only the form of religion and having no power thereof.

As Adams noted, our form of government under the Constitution “was made only for a moral and religious people, it is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other”.

We are no longer a moral or religious people, and that is the foundation liberty itself, and Conservatism was built on. Today the Ruling Class has redefined Conservatism to be a political loyalty without the need for the moral (or Social) planks.

As Franklin noted “As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters” - and that is what we are now: a vicious and corrupt nation who has empowered the State to be it’s master, and the State imposing it’s authority as Master to maintain order and control of the people.

A nation no longer under God, is a nation that is gone under.

And that is where we sadly are. A people of faith have no power or ability to reform this tyranny in D.C. Not by any means available to us except one - and there are not enough of us willing to risk that.

Therefore, we can only withdraw from supporting it and secede, or bow down and worship it.

It will be one or the other. Make no mistake.


120 posted on 11/15/2012 2:19:50 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: INVAR
Therefore, we can only withdraw from supporting it and secede, or bow down and worship it.

I think anyone who really meant that statement would have by now also thought of a third option - emigration to another country. In fact, that should be the first option that comes to mind when someone decides to divorce himself from the USA.

121 posted on 11/15/2012 2:24:48 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Tau Food

Love it or leave it - even when it makes itself God over this people?

That’s a breaking of the first Commandment: idolatry. Perhaps one of the many reasons this people willingly succumbed to hedonism and tyranny; allegiance to the country first and not to God.

So if I understand what you are saying - if we choose to divorce ourselves from being slaves of this regime, and if we would have God as our Sovereign - then we need to leave this country we were born into if we want to continue to worship God and not the state?

To paraphrase a few great statesmen in regards to party; we did not leave the country - the country left us.

A ‘love it or leave it’ mindset makes my entire point about the seig-heil tyranny we are growing accustomed.


122 posted on 11/15/2012 2:35:36 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Tau Food
"Yeah, that's what the Declaration said in 1776. However, they then formed a confederation (Articles of Confederation). Then, in 1789, the people of the United States formed a new national government and a "more perfect Union" with a new Constitution."

They formed a Union, not a single Nation-State. It was like NATO or the UN. "United States" was plural.

123 posted on 11/15/2012 2:36:07 PM PST by UnwashedPeasant
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To: Tau Food

The way the Cowboys have been the past decade, I think my bumper sticker would say “God, Family, Texas”. I’ve given up on my Cowboys. lol


124 posted on 11/15/2012 2:37:08 PM PST by Sporke (USS Iowa BB-61)
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To: INVAR

INVAR, I don’t think you really buy into the idea that Romney was the best candidate we could loft, or that he did everything possible from a Conservative point of view to win.

None the less, fewer than 180,000 flipped votes across three states and Romney would have been president.

We cannot continue to misread the teal leaves and make drastic mistakes that would splinter our nation without real cause.

California has the largest body of Hispanics in the nation. Tell me how Romney appealed directly to them, without even entering the state other than to take $15 million away with him after a fundraiser.

He didn’t even ask for their vote, and yet we’re reading all sorts of truths into what their not voting for him meant or didn’t mean.

Could we have gotten 25% more votes from Hispanics in California if Romney had made a number of appearances across the Southland appealing to them on bedrock beliefs they and we share? There is a strong possibility. And it wouldn’t have had to break the bank.

If you separatists would spend as much energy on getting those Hispanic and Black votes as you do on thinking of reasons why you should leave, I think we’d be a lot better off.


125 posted on 11/15/2012 2:37:52 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and 48 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: INVAR
So if I understand what you are saying - if we choose to divorce ourselves from being slaves of this regime, and if we would have God as our Sovereign - then we need to leave this country we were born into if we want to continue to worship God and not the state?

You don't "need' to do anything. However, if a person feels that he just can't live in the USA anymore, he should consider moving to a country where he'll be happier rather than deciding that he's going to try to drag all of his neighbors into a civil war.

Why? The most important reason is because if he doesn't emigrate to another country, he's going to continue to live in the USA. And he's probably going to go on complaining long after his neighbors are tired of hearing him.

That's the reality he faces.

126 posted on 11/15/2012 2:49:31 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: UnwashedPeasant

What makes you think you can just quit the UN? ;-)


127 posted on 11/15/2012 2:51:17 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: DoughtyOne

No - Romney was decidedly NOT the candidate for Conservatives. But Obama and the Ruling Class chose him to be the fall guy so the scam of this election would look legit. That’s my take considering I’ve said Cook County went national and we are more like the Soviet Union now in terms of how things will work electively from here on out. We need to get it out of our heads that elections are trustworthy and our votes count. It’s WHO provides the votes and counts them that matters.

As to appealing to Hispanics and blacks with the ideals of Conservatism - that would be the job of citizens and the church - not politicians. What I am hearing from most is that ‘reaching out’ to those constituencies means we must sacrifice our principles in order to ‘win’ them to our side. It will never happen, because if personal responsibility is a core principle of Conservatism, you cannot reason against a people who worship the government Santa Claus.

And that is what this is all about. A majority of people who no longer see God as their Sovereign, but the State as their god. That is what this all boils down to. A people beholden to the bible and religion would not surrender their liberty to worship God as He leads them in order to serve the State.

But free stuff and hatred of those with more than they have - is a defacto religion with those with an entitlement mindset and who loft government into the place religion and God once occupied in this nation.

You are going to discover that we are past the point of resolving differences by any means left to us outside of extreme measures most of this people are not willing to consider. The history of tyrannies is one where the right of the people to follow God is removed and forcibly made to serve the state.

So there are no options left us except to surrender and bow down to worship this regime to get our share of bread, withdraw from it and refuse to comply as our Founders did the Crown - and/or - when the state makes it’s last mistake - force becomes necessary to preserve life and liberty.


128 posted on 11/15/2012 3:16:14 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Tau Food

Well Love it or Leave it....

... enjoy your chains. I’m sure you’ll get accustomed to them in no time.


129 posted on 11/15/2012 3:19:22 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Tau Food

You got me there! :-)


130 posted on 11/15/2012 3:29:46 PM PST by UnwashedPeasant
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To: INVAR
... enjoy your chains. I’m sure you’ll get accustomed to them in no time.

Of all the hell holes on this earth, I was blessed by birth and born in the USA . . . and I'm supposed to feel like I'm in chains?

Maybe when we get to our reward, you and I can meet some real slaves who really did spend a lifetime in chains. We can all swap slavery stories and pat one another on the back.

We are so spoiled in this country.

131 posted on 11/15/2012 3:30:56 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Sam Gamgee

Illegals used to come to Texas to work. And they worked their butts off, and yes, there is some truth to the saying that they did jobs that no one else wanted.Often they would get a temporary work permit, often they would not. Mostly farming, and some ranch work, chicken egg farms, etc. Like i said, they kept a very low profile, caused no trouble and asked for nothing but their pay. What has happened as I see it, is that the democrat party saw them as a group they could exploit just as they have the blacks.Promise them free everything,encourage them to have anchor babies in order to expand their voter base. Even if half of them never voted, the democrats don’t care,taxpayers can foot the bill.The relationship Texas had with illegals wasn’t too bad before liberals got involved.


132 posted on 11/15/2012 3:34:10 PM PST by Quickgun (I came here screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I can go out that way if I have to)
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To: wideminded

Texas.


133 posted on 11/15/2012 3:35:43 PM PST by Quickgun (I came here screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I can go out that way if I have to)
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To: Tau Food

No one has “spoiled” most of us. Many of us have worked a lifetime to have a decent place to live, transportation, and tried to secure a retirement so our last years can be comfortable.Why should we give that up to a power hungry dictator wannabe? Why should we give that up when we don’t have to?


134 posted on 11/15/2012 3:43:23 PM PST by Quickgun (I came here screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I can go out that way if I have to)
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To: All
I've read many replies asking what Texas will do without federal funds.What a laugh. Where does the fed get it's money? From the states and the states get it from the people.
What a waste! Think of all the funds lost by sending the money from the people to the feds and sent back, with strings attached, back to the state. All that money lost in our vast bureaucracy. Some sent to people who pay no taxes. Texas could keep it's money, if independent, and have funds left over. The real question is what will the feds do without Texas money and how much Texas will save without federal regulations?
135 posted on 11/15/2012 3:44:25 PM PST by Pfesser (I miss President Reagan.)
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To: Quickgun
No one has “spoiled” most of us. Many of us have worked a lifetime to have a decent place to live, transportation, and tried to secure a retirement so our last years can be comfortable.Why should we give that up to a power hungry dictator wannabe? Why should we give that up when we don’t have to?

That's right and why should you have to worry about what your neighbors might want? You're entitled to a whole new country and the neighbors will just have to get used to it.

Wouldn't it be easier to just find another country that makes you happier than this one?

136 posted on 11/15/2012 3:50:22 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: INVAR
No - Romney was decidedly NOT the candidate for Conservatives.  I agree.

But Obama and the Ruling Class chose him to be the fall guy so the scam of this election would look legit. That’s my take considering I’ve said Cook County went national and we are more like the Soviet Union now in terms of how things will work electively from here on out.  We need to get it out of our heads that elections are trustworthy and our votes count. It’s WHO provides the votes and counts them that matters.  Okay here's my take on your thoughts here.  You and I agree that Romney wasn't the best guy we could have lofted.  The election figures were very close, as I addressed in my first response to you.  With very little change Romney would have been sworn in as President come January 2013.  Give me a good run by a good man that has shared our views for decades, has defended them, and can respond on point effectively on the spur of the moment.  If he presents his beliefs effectively to all groups, then loses by a wide margin, I would be moved to consider your thoughts much more spot on.  As it is, I think you're jumping to conclusion without basis in fact.     

As to appealing to Hispanics and blacks with the ideals of Conservatism - that would be the job of citizens and the church - not politicians.  You don't mean that.  If you did, then you would also believe that an appeal to any group should be made in the same manner.  Should an appeal to white middle class citizens only be made by citizens and the church, but not politicians?  Of course not.

You don't approach these folks with promises of freebies, but you should approach them talking about crime, education, and economic opportunity, explaining how your administration will be better for them than the administration of your opponent.  You can talk to them frankly face to face, reminding them of what has happened to their community during the last four years.  Then explain the exact policies you would implement to spur improvement, not just for them, but for everyone.  That makes them a member of the team, not a separate people.  These citizens should not be treated any differently than any other.

Use examples of how the grocery store down the block has been impacted.  Explain why people lost jobs.  Explain why your world view would be more healthy, right there on their block.  Failing this, we don't have one leg to stand on when we claim rejection.  We're our policies rejected?  Heck no.  Our policies weren't even presented to them.


What I am hearing from most is that ‘reaching out’ to those constituencies means we must sacrifice our principles in order to ‘win’ them to our side.  Well then, most are wrong.  Hispanics own businesses.  Hispanics see the things the government does first-hand, to burden their businesses.  This matters to them, just like it does us.  I'm not sure where you live, but I live in areas that are heavily populated by Hispanics.  When I drive through those communities, guess what I see.  First, I DO NOT see only homes where the parents stay home all day and the children come home from school in the evenings to find their parents in the same chair in front of the television they were in when they left.  When I drive through these communities, I see hundreds of thousands if not millions of businesses.  These businesses employ Hispanics.

There is a robust economy conducted in these communities.  There are new cars, older cars that are fixed up nice.  There are nice looking homes that are well kept up.  Hispanics are not all poor, all unable or unwilling to work..

My wife works.  My father-in-law worked.  My mother-in-law worked.  My brother-in-law works.  My sister-in-law works  These people have good jobs, and their concerns are your concerns.  Their kids go to public schools.  Their parents are concerned about their education.

Yes, there are takers out there.  You're kidding yourself if you think every Hispanic is a taker.  You're kidding yourself if you think this body of hard working people don't look down on freeloaders too.


It will never happen, because if personal responsibility is a core principle of Conservatism, you cannot reason against a people who worship the government Santa Claus.  It's a mistake to see this body of people in a monolithic terms.  I'll bet you can see the reason of what I have spelled out above.  I'll be that if you think about it, you could add some reasons that you could come up with, that directly challenges the idea this body of people are all takers, and don't have any connection to us at all.

And that is what this is all about. A majority of people who no longer see God as their Sovereign, but the State as their god. That is what this all boils down to. A people beholden to the bible and religion would not surrender their liberty to worship God as He leads them in order to serve the State.

No longer see God as their sovereign - Okay there are no churches in the Hispanic communities, and they don't love Him like you do.  Do you really believe that?

But free stuff and hatred of those with more than they have - is a defacto religion with those with an entitlement mindset and who loft government into the place religion and God once occupied in this nation.  I don't think you're the only one, but you really are allowing your imagination to run wild here.  I do believe that there is a problem with illegal immigration.  I do believe that we are making a big mistake by allowing it, and considering transitioning illegals to citizenship.  That does not mean that the majority of Hispanics are anything like what you're referencing here.

As with any other group of citizens, we need to seek their vote in an intelligent manner that includes talking to folks, and not down to them.  Why are we failing to do so?


You are going to discover that we are past the point of resolving differences by any means left to us outside of extreme measures most of this people are not willing to consider. The history of tyrannies is one where the right of the people to follow God is removed and forcibly made to serve the state.  You just watched us go up against the Left A team with our B team.  Our B team barely bested despite this, you have now come to the conclusion that we can never win another game against their A team.  Seriously, it's this simple.  IMO you're jumping to conclusions wildly.

So there are no options left us except to surrender and bow down to worship this regime to get our share of bread, withdraw from it and refuse to comply as our Founders did the Crown - and/or - when the state makes it’s last mistake - force becomes necessary to preserve life and liberty.
  Yep, no options left except fielding our A team next time.  Other than that, you're dead on target.  And sadly, that pretty much destroys the premises you have heralded here.  At least that's my take on it.


137 posted on 11/15/2012 4:21:01 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and 48 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: Tau Food

Most of my neighbors here in Texas feel the same way I do.as far as the other States, let them make their own choices.


138 posted on 11/15/2012 5:32:20 PM PST by Quickgun (I came here screaming and covered in someone else's blood. I can go out that way if I have to)
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To: Pfesser

In my opinion the first step is to let the people of Texas decided if they want to persue a separation. That step should be a process to involve the statewide vote by the citizens. If passed then persue the process via the state legislature/gov’t.


139 posted on 11/15/2012 5:50:40 PM PST by deport
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To: Vigilanteman

We should give parts of the Rio Grande Valley back to Mexico and build a fence to block the rest. El Paso, maybe, becomes part of the liberal state next door, but we keep the military base. That moves a lot of blue voters out of Texas.
The problem is then the liberal areas of Dallas, Austin, Houston and San Antonio.


140 posted on 11/15/2012 7:25:01 PM PST by tbw2
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To: Tau Food
Of all the hell holes on this earth, I was blessed by birth and born in the USA . . . and I'm supposed to feel like I'm in chains?

You will.

We all will.

Such is the nature of regimes led by Marxists like Obama. Especially by a people who once knew what real liberty tasted like at one time.

Maybe when we get to our reward, you and I can meet some real slaves who really did spend a lifetime in chains.

I spent the first half of this year living in the slums of rural India. It's as close to mind, body and soul slavery as anything I've ever even read about before.

So I've seen some of what we're devolving into up close and personal.

We've got a political caste system being imposed.

It's not going to be pleasant.

That said, there are going to only be two options: 1 - bow down and worship the state, willing enduring slavery to get a slice of bread; or 2 - divorcing ourselves from tyranny.

141 posted on 11/15/2012 8:17:32 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: DoughtyOne
As it is, I think you're jumping to conclusion without basis in fact.

At one time the wife and I were GOP precinct captains, election judges and poll watchers in COOK COUNTY, IL. I've seen corruption and rigged voting processes up close being perpetrated by the machine. It's gone national. 100% of the vote to Obama in Philly without even ONE vote for Romney??? Not even Saddam Hussein had such 'luck'. It's cognitive dissonance to assume that Romney lost due a few thousand legit votes.

Should an appeal to white middle class citizens only be made by citizens and the church, but not politicians?

I'm not talking about 'appeal'. Conservatism is a way of life, a way of thought and devotion. It is not the job of politicians to teach American culture, Conservatism and biblical principles to a people in order to 'appeal' to them. That's our job.

A people will vote their principles - whether that be their wallets, their identities or their faith. A moral and religious people should vote for those who carry those same principles in governing. If the people will not be governed by God, they will be ruled by the tyranny of men, plain and simple. If people are truly governed by God - then they will select those men to represent their interests.

In short, enough of this people are corrupt and wicked - and what we have for rulers is a reflection of those people. You will not win the wicked over to righteousness via a political campaign. That battle needs to be fought by Christians, the church and the community. That's where Conservatism should be rooted.

You don't approach these folks with promises of freebies, but you should approach them talking about crime, education, and economic opportunity, explaining how your administration will be better for them than the administration of your opponent.

That only resonates with a religious and moral people who are able to withstand the fiery darts of the media and the zeitgeist of political correctness. A dependent people who see government as Santa Claus or God - cannot be reached by political speeches and campaigns. You are dealing with a different animal altogether there.

Conservatism has to be like preaching the Gospel - we cannot leave it up to 'professionals' to teach a way of life and belief. That takes each one of us to do so. And we've let the enemy take the high ground as they control the education system, the media and the government. We've got to start over, almost as if we're preaching Christ to a pagan people who have never even heard His Name.

I'm not going to address your point about Hispanics. If we have to engage in identity politics, then we've already lost with no chance of ever winning people into embracing an American culture and Conservative ideology.

As to your comment about the church - and that no one loves Him like I do - scripture says we are to judge the fruits. Well, the culture in this nation is a living daily testament of the FAILURE of the Christian church in EVERY community and demographic to influence the culture. Sure there are stadiums packed with concert-like "revivals" - yet the culture continues to slide into a hedonism that would make Sodom and Gomorra blush. A testament to the failure of the church to uphold the foundational principles that make liberty and Conservatism itself a viable belief system.

You just watched us go up against the Left A team with our B team. Our B team barely bested despite this, you have now come to the conclusion that we can never win another game against their A team. Seriously, it's this simple.

Well that's where you and I differ. This is not just politics as usual. History teaches what happens when Marxist ideologues like the Obama regime achieve power. I do not see this as just another political game like the GOP-e does.

Where you and I differ is that I see America having been overthrown in a velvet coup by Marxists. When the machine runs the show - it doesn't matter what "A' team we bring. You don't get to play in Cook County unless you are part of the machine and approved by the Ruling Class party that runs the show, produces the candidates and counts the votes.

142 posted on 11/15/2012 8:54:22 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: INVAR
As it is, I think you're jumping to conclusion without basis in fact.

At one time the wife and I were GOP precinct captains, election judges and poll watchers in COOK COUNTY, IL. I've seen corruption and rigged voting processes up close being perpetrated by the machine. It's gone national. 100% of the vote to Obama in Philly without even ONE vote for Romney??? Not even Saddam Hussein had such 'luck'. It's cognitive dissonance to assume that Romney lost due a few thousand legit votes.

First of all, I think it would be a great idea for you to write down your observations from those days and place them where others could read them.  I'd like to read them.  It would be educational.  The more techniques you've seen used or know about to carry out voter fraud, that you could include, the better.I am not operating under the assumption that no voter fraud took place.  I've heard three different reports of what appears to be fraud.  At the present time I'm merely in a holding pattern hoping to hear more.

Look, I appreciate your point of view.  It hasn't been my premise that Romney lost in a totally legit election process.  It has been my premise that he lost despite not being the best candidate, despite him not running the best campaign, and there possibly being considerable voter fraud.  We play hard ball and any of these three factors change, and we've got a good chance of winning.  Correct all three, and it's quite likely we will win.     

Should an appeal to white middle class citizens only be made by citizens and the church, but not politicians?

I'm not talking about 'appeal'. Conservatism is a way of life, a way of thought and devotion. It is not the job of politicians to teach American culture, Conservatism and biblical principles to a people in order to 'appeal' to them. That's our job.

A people will vote their principles - whether that be their wallets, their identities or their faith. A moral and religious people should vote for those who carry those same principles in governing. If the people will not be governed by God, they will be ruled by the tyranny of men, plain and simple. If people are truly governed by God - then they will select those men to represent their interests.

In short, enough of this people are corrupt and wicked - and what we have for rulers is a reflection of those people. You will not win the wicked over to righteousness via a political campaign. That battle needs to be fought by Christians, the church and the community. That's where Conservatism should be rooted.

In concept I don't disagree with much of what you have said here.  I agree that people should vote their principles and Christian values.  This still leaves me with a quandary.  Don't you recognize that there are people out there that don't spend nearly as much time with their nose to the political grind-stone as you and I do?  I believe it is possible for people who aren't tuned in as much as we are, to miss some of the reasons why they should vote against a guy like Obama.

We're in tune with the abortion issue.  Nobody has to explain it to us, and what the connection to Conservatism vs the Democrats is.  It's been on our radar for decades, and we've seen what Obama and Romney have adopted as their policy regarding this issue.  Okay, which one was better?  Romney talked a good game, but I don't think many people were buying it.  So what's the Christian take-away for people who haven't followed Obama or Romney very closely?

We talk about debt, taxes, and a number of issues.  Our media is bad enough, but I'd venture to guess that Telemundo/Univision are not pushing our agenda.  I'm not convinced Hispanic pastors are up to speed on issues like those we just faced.

If you show up a mile from where I live, I'm going to be a lot more interested in what you have to say.  Even if you just show up in my region and sound like you're talking to me or my family, I'll probably try to find out what you said.  You don't come closer than five states away, why should I listen to you at all?  You don't address my people more than a couple of times during the campaign, you're dead to me. 

You don't approach these folks with promises of freebies, but you should approach them talking about crime, education, and economic opportunity, explaining how your administration will be better for them than the administration of your opponent.

That only resonates with a religious and moral people who are able to withstand the fiery darts of the media and the zeitgeist of political correctness. A dependent people who see government as Santa Claus or God - cannot be reached by political speeches and campaigns. You are dealing with a different animal altogether there.

Well, if we were talking 98% of the Hispanic people, I'd agree with your premise.  We aren't.  If you wish to believe we are, that's okay.  I'm here to provide an alternative view.  I'm not here to convince you or else.There are a lot of hard working Hispanic people in our nation.  We got 28% of the Hispanic vote.  I'm trying to tell you we could have gotten much more.  We didn't appeal to the Hispanic man to man, and we still got 28% of the Hispanic vote.  I honestly believe that should tell you something.  If we can get 28% without trying, shouldn't we be able to enhance that?  To me, that seems clear.

Conservatism has to be like preaching the Gospel - we cannot leave it up to 'professionals' to teach a way of life and belief.

Why do you think we have political campaigns?  Wouldn't you agree it's to attract people to our brand?  To hear you talk here, one could be forgiven for thinking you think every person who goes to a campaign rally, is a die-hard supporter already.  If that's the case, then we're spending a ton of money for no reason whatsoever.  You really do need to think about what you're saying here.  All political conversions take place one to one.  The candidate shouldn't appeal to Hispanics, because someone else already should have.

Listen to this.  We've got an audience out there.  I'll liken it to Dodger stadium being full.  As a man trying to get a belief system across, I'm interested in providing a clear message.  Now I can take my boom box (figuratively) out there, or I can use the stadium P. A. system.

It's my take, that by limiting campaign messages to individuals, you are showing preference to the boom box.  I prefer using the stadium P. A.  I have a voice.  Romney had a loud voice.  If we truly want to move people, we have to use every tool in our box. 

That takes each one of us to do so. And we've let the enemy take the high ground as they control the education system, the media and the government. We've got to start over, almost as if we're preaching Christ to a pagan people who have never even heard His Name.

We got 28% of the Hispanic vote.  With about 32% of it we would have won this election.  I tell you how to improve on those numbers, and you start referencing pagans and folks who have never heard of Christ.  I know you're using it as a metaphore, but it seems to me it's a rather poor one.  Many of these people are good Christians.  Please understand that doesn't make them the consummate highly tuned in and informed political analyst.  It's up to our candidate to connect with them somehow, and explain to them how Conservatism makes more sense if you're someone with good morals.  You don't have to word it in exactly those terms, but you lay out your beliefs in a manner that allows them to come to the conclusion for themselves.   

I'm not going to address your point about Hispanics. If we have to engage in identity politics, then we've already lost with no chance of ever winning people into embracing an American culture and Conservative ideology.So let me see, when our candidate talks to the Irish, the English, the French, the Germans, the Jewish, the Asians, and the blacks, at a rally, he's actually engaging in identity politics.  LOL  Guy, you don't talk to any of these groups any differently.  Adding Hispanics into the mix, is not identity politics.  It's merely being inclusive.  It's being willing to talk to them too.  And this year, we weren't.

If we're willing to go to towns in Iowa, Ohio, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, and other states, we should be willing to go to venues in east Los Angeles.  Why are you making this so difficult?  It's obvious.  It's easy.  It's effective.

As to your comment about the church - and that no one loves Him like I do - scripture says we are to judge the fruits. Well, the culture in this nation is a living daily testament of the FAILURE of the Christian church in EVERY community and demographic to influence the culture. Sure there are stadiums packed with concert-like "revivals" - yet the culture continues to slide into a hedonism that would make Sodom and Gomorra blush. A testament to the failure of the church to uphold the foundational principles that make liberty and Conservatism itself a viable belief system.

You have got to get off this religion kick.  Churches are there to talk about Christ.  They are not there to talk about Romney.  I don't want this stuff taught from the pulpit.  Some massive black churches are the havens of all manner of evil.  They are owned by the Democrat party, lock stock and barrel.  I'm not about to start supporting turning good Christian churches into a political party meeting hall.  Teach people about Christ, and let the political parties teach them their beliefs.  If Christ has been taught properly, the flock will know who to gather around to support.

You just watched us go up against the Left A team with our B team. Our B team barely bested despite this, you have now come to the conclusion that we can never win another game against their A team. Seriously, it's this simple.

Well that's where you and I differ. This is not just politics as usual. History teaches what happens when Marxist ideologues like the Obama regime achieve power. I do not see this as just another political game like the GOP-e does.

The GOPe only sees this as a way for them to hold power.  They don't give a fig about Conservative ideology.  We must, and we know that.  It's up to us to select candidates who adhere to Conservative ideology.  It's up to us to make sure they're well grounded enough to teach others.  We can reinforce what they say, but they need to be heard saying it.  They need to be heard being challenged on it, and explaining their beliefs in a manner where people listening can think, "I agree with him.  He sees it like I do.  I like this guy.  He's right, and I trust him."  Short of that, I can try to sell people all four years long, and never make the connection for our candidate.  He has to do that.

Where you and I differ is that I see America having been overthrown in a velvet coup by Marxists.

Okay, but your vision includes surrender in it.  Mine does not.  We're at war.  We lost a skirmish.  We didn't lose the war.  Of course that's unless we refuse to fight.  And refusing to show up in minority areas and ask them to support us is in effect surrender.  I'm  not surrendering one square inch of this nation.  I may have to drag some areas along kicking and screaming, but I'm going to contest every place I can, and take enough areas that those that don't go with me won't matter.

There is no area in our nation, I wouldn't go to talk to a small group of people one on one.  I might not win them over, but before I left they would understand that actually care about their success.

When the machine runs the show - it doesn't matter what "A' team we bring. You don't get to play in Cook County unless you are part of the machine and approved by the Ruling Class party that runs the show, produces the candidates and counts the votes.

How long do you think the Democrat party would allow us to run an area like that?  Any idea?  I think you know.

So why do we allow it?  Why don't we file suits, bring in the feds, and force fair elections.  If it takes the national guard, then that's what we should fight for.

You mentioned the skewed school structures.  I agree that they are skewed.  I would address the inequity of socialism in our schools.  During my first term I would have every school in the nation balanced politcally, or I would withhold federal dollars.  If teachers were indoctrinating, I'd do whatever I had to do to put an end to it.  If I couldn't put an end to it, I'd at least force school districts to propagandize their kids on their own dime.  This would leave more money for wholesome schools.

PBS would be gone.  NPR would be gone.  The EPA would be gone.  The Department of Education would be gone.I would give the U. N. three months to close every field office in the United States.  If there were still occupying them three months and one day later, I'd have their buildings bull-dozed on the first Sunday after.

There's no reason why we have to play softball with the Left.

And by the way, I'd review the situation and find any way possible to end as many Leftist groups as I could including the ACLU.  Conservancies wouldn't get one more dime from the federal government, and I would seek to return all lands purchased with federal dollars under Conservancies, to be returned to the federal government, and in some instances individual states.


143 posted on 11/16/2012 1:30:23 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and 48 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: Pfesser

Should others have a say in what Texas does?


144 posted on 11/16/2012 1:37:21 AM PST by meyer (Proud member of the 53%.)
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To: Sam Gamgee

Yes, and when the people made him take the forced vaccination off the table, he sent it to school nurses to hand out for free with the taxpayers still footing the bill. Very underhanded, imo.


145 posted on 11/16/2012 6:27:21 AM PST by bgill (We've passed the point of no return. Welcome to Al Amerika.)
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To: Sporke

Are people from Houston more Texan than those from Dallas? San Antonio? Austin? Is your street more Texan than the next one?

Is it like King of the Hill in your area?


146 posted on 11/16/2012 10:34:21 AM PST by sakic
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To: sakic

We don’t claim Dallas or Austin. King of the Hill is actually a very good representation of how Texans think, at least in most of Texas. I consider myself a Dale Gribbel type.


147 posted on 11/16/2012 10:39:06 AM PST by Sporke (USS Iowa BB-61)
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To: DoughtyOne
First of all, I think it would be a great idea for you to write down your observations from those days and place them where others could read them.

Never thought about that before. Perhaps. Suffice it to say that what you read about what happened in Philly and Cleveland with 100% of the vote going to Obama; GOP poll watchers being thrown out of or not being permitted inside polling places during the election; in Florida with the waiting for Republican counties to report their tallies first before Democrat urban strongholds reported their results that have the 'required amount' of votes for a 'win', was SOP in Cook County.

We play hard ball and any of these three factors change, and we've got a good chance of winning. Correct all three, and it's quite likely we will win.

I'm truly fearing that even among ardent Conservatives like yourself, few understand what time it is. We saw our last relatively honest national elections in 2008. The machine is national now. Marxists run the show. History teaches Marxists never lose elections or leave office outside the threat or use of force. That's history speaking, not me speculating. Are we truly so blind to insist such evil cannot happen here? I submit it already has.

Don't you recognize that there are people out there that don't spend nearly as much time with their nose to the political grind-stone as you and I do? I believe it is possible for people who aren't tuned in as much as we are, to miss some of the reasons why they should vote against a guy like Obama.

Here again is where we differ.

First, scripture states that God says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6) and as Acts 17 says - a righteous people would be like Bereans - proving all things, holding fast to that which is good (I Thess. 5:21). A people ignorant of their history, heritage and faith - who hang on the words of men - are easily deceived.

It's not the job of politicians to educate the people about what principles they should believe and live by. A politician appeals to those principles and values a people already have that will motivate them to vote for him. Those are principles learned in family, church and community. Reagan did not 'teach' the people the need to adopt Conservatism, Reagan appealed to the Conservatism the people already had.

We are no longer even those people of two plus decades ago. Only a moral people are capable of freedom and liberty. As people become more selfish,corrupt and vicious - the greater the god they will allow government to become to maintain order and redistribute wealth.

We didn't appeal to the Hispanic man to man, and we still got 28% of the Hispanic vote.

Look, it's common knowledge that a significant bulk of hispanics enclave among us - without adopting American culture for their own. The Left panders to them and instead of demanding they learn English and adopt American cultural values - we allow them to enclave without any push for them to become American. Why do so many illegals sneak in here? Free stuff. What are they motivated by? Free stuff. What do they demand? Free stuff. Who get's their votes? The guy who promises them free stuff.

The values of a Conservative have to be taught long, long before election season begins. That we wait for a politician to espouse and teach those values is how and why the Marxist Left have been able to achieve power.

Wouldn't you agree it's to attract people to our brand?....It's my take, that by limiting campaign messages to individuals, you are showing preference to the boom box. I prefer using the stadium P. A. I have a voice. Romney had a loud voice. If we truly want to move people, we have to use every tool in our box.

Look, let me put it this way. I've been to massive Promise Keeper-type /crusades' and 'revivals' over the last two decades. Stadiums filled with tens of thousands of people who are 'preached to' in booming loud PA and multi-media events to appeal to their faith. And you know what? If the messages preached were LIVED BY instead of the majority of people simply going for an 'emotional event' - we would not have lost the culture war in this country.

Just because some guy can fill a stadium and rev them up into an emotional motivation for their vote - does not translate into a way of life being lived so that liberty and freedom and Constitutional law are upheld and adhered to by the people. If that were so - twenty years of crusades and revivals in packed stadiums would not have lost a culture to hedonists, homosexuals and a zeitgeist of selfish indulgence and entitlement.

Conservatism is like a religion - it's an ideology that motivates the way we live our lives. That is something that has to be taught from family, church and community. If Americans choose leaders that reflect their values - then the fruits speak to the fact we are no longer a moral people and Conservatism is not being promoted, taught or preached in daily life.

Adding Hispanics into the mix, is not identity politics. It's merely being inclusive. It's being willing to talk to them too.

If we talk to people as Americans, and not hyphenated - then we're automatically being 'inclusive'. If we have to pander to factions of people based on race and not a common American heritage and community - we're engaging in identity politics. Period.

You have got to get off this religion kick. Churches are there to talk about Christ. They are not there to talk about Romney.

That sentiment explains why Conservatism and Christianity are losing power and influence among the people. Life in this country at one time was by and large, through the prism of faith and belief. Compartmentalized religion or as I call it 'keeping God in His box' is one of the root reasons we lost the culture and the nation.

Our Founders didn't get 'off their religion kick'. Most of what they did was through the prism of their religion and faith. Their own writings bear that out.

But you are making my point about the fact that a politician cannot teach Conservatism, and if religion is to be compartmentalized and accepted that God should stay in His box in the church - it is no wonder Conservatism is losing in the minds of Americans.

Then again, the Christian church is hemorrhaging and what remains of much of mainstream churchianity is lukewarm at best.

So why do we allow it? Why don't we file suits, bring in the feds, and force fair elections. If it takes the national guard, then that's what we should fight for.

Corruption is institutionalized. The government has become corrupt itself. The courts? Same thing - corrupt. When society itself becomes corrupt and vicious - the government becomes a harsh master to keep order and itself in power. Can Satan cast out Satan? Jesus asked. Once corruption is the norm - there is no way to remove it except by force or to escape it altogether.

Which brings us back to the topic of discussion - secession. If you want to play hardball with the Left - it's going to come to civil conflict. You talked about using the national guard to force the imposition of Justice. How is that any different than all the fear we're reading about separating and leaving the Marxist Socialists to themselves?

There are only two options that exist; enduring and submitting to tyranny - or defiance and separation. There will be no middle ground in the very near future.

148 posted on 11/16/2012 11:20:56 AM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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